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View Full Version : smoothing or de-harshing vocals


Jae.Thomas
10-01-2007, 11:08 AM
The Chain Gang Medley (http://jasonbrianmerrill.silverlogix.com/music/covers/chain_gang_medley.mp3)

the mic im using is a studio projects sp-1

I have a vocal preset chain that consists of

reagate
magix amphibia
voxengo harmonieq
voxengo marquis compressor

I LOVE the sound i get

but theres one problem, listen to the file above (and ignore the horrible out of tune sound of the vocals) and tell me if you hear the sss and tch sounds sticking out too much. I dont really hear
it in the initial track..

so im trying to find a way to smoothen these vocals, especially fro this song.

any ideas>?

Alistair S
10-01-2007, 02:30 PM
I know what you mean. You start to listen to something you recorded, and you hear snakes everywhere :)

FWIW, I think this sounds fine. Maybe - maybe, if I was to nitpick - there are a couple of places where you double the vocals on the last element of the medley (on the word "sound") where you could cut back the "s" on one of the vocals. They do add up.

Really. I wouldn't worry about it.

Here's George Michael, showing us how to make sibilance a feature :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izEr8Kt4rdU

Nice job on the song, by the way :)

radiome1
10-01-2007, 02:43 PM
Get a tube preamp. I've found that it helps alot with the Siblance, also it would warm your vocals up more. Studio Projects VTB-1 is what I use with a C1, and that is killer setup sound, also use a waves dessers well.

Staccato
10-01-2007, 03:29 PM
I would go after it. Theres some other of the instruments in there that seem to have a harsh quality to it too, like it's missing warmth. Try a little dip about 3-6k.

Till
10-01-2007, 04:08 PM
one word: multibandcomp

Jae.Thomas
10-01-2007, 06:07 PM
I would go after it. Theres some other of the instruments in there that seem to have a harsh quality to it too, like it's missing warmth. Try a little dip about 3-6k.

the other instruments are irrelevant. I havent really mixed them yet.

Im just wondering about the vocals.

and yes, multiband compression DUH :)

thx for the reminder till

simpsongb
10-02-2007, 05:34 AM
Jason

grizlee had some very nice presets for ReaXcomp....you might want to try a couple of his pre's as a starting point:)

Jae.Thomas
10-02-2007, 06:31 AM
Jason

grizlee had some very nice presets for ReaXcomp....you might want to try a couple of his pre's as a starting point:)

would ya mind linking em to me?

Im lazy you see...

hehe

btw this is how far i got... I changed some settings in my presets to make this sound:

exit music (for a film) (http://jasonbrianmerrill.silverlogix.com/music/covers/exit_music_for_a_film_2.mp3)

yes, i know its blasphemy to record this, esp cause i didnt add anything new to it, but i just wanted to see if i could :)

JasonTheron
10-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Try SPITfish. ---> http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=5

simpsongb
10-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Jason.....

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11268&highlight=reaxcomp+presets

Indeed a lazy man..:)

beatbybit
10-03-2007, 11:31 AM
Voxengo GlissEQ?

it's a kinda dynamic eq,

or Waves C1sc in "Split" mode (sometimes more than one instances to get "multiband")

imho

Jae.Thomas
10-03-2007, 11:39 AM
thanks for the ideas, and thanks for the lazy mans link

plush2
10-03-2007, 06:37 PM
Rather than going for the automatic solution why not go through and spectrally "mix" the vocal using schwa's new spectro plugin. It takes a bit longer than slapping on a broadband effect but you get exactly the result you want for each anomaly. Better still, put spectro after whatever de-esser/mutliband tool you're using to see what it grabs and anything it doesn't you can just tweak to your liking.

Jae.Thomas
10-03-2007, 06:39 PM
Rather than going for the automatic solution why not go through and spectrally "mix" the vocal using schwa's new spectro plugin. It takes a bit longer than slapping on a broadband effect but you get exactly the result you want for each anomaly. Better still, put spectro after whatever de-esser/mutliband tool you're using to see what it grabs and anything it doesn't you can just tweak to your liking.

i just got this plugin and i was thinking the same exact thing :)

plush2
10-03-2007, 08:08 PM
Happy de-harshing (you should coin that term) then.

I think the longer I'm in this the less I want the 'set it and forget it' solution. Perhaps that's part of the die-hard appeal of hardware mixing. It's also something I think reaper is injecting into daw production.

Petimar
10-04-2007, 11:58 AM
Might want to try a ribbon mic? Ribbons are much less harsh and on the right voice (think Sinatra, Nat King Cole, etc) are very pleasing to the ear.

There are plenty of decent quality ribbons out there for fairly cheap these days, the Cascade mics come to mind first in this category. Of course there are the cream of the crop, like AEA, Royer, etc. Being an owner and user of several of these mics, I love the sound of em.

With ribbons, you must work harder with mic placement to get the sound you want and often they do require more EQ, but they respond much better to EQ than most condensers (especially additive EQ). Ribbons have a way of sitting better in a mix to my ears as well.

Try it, you may find exactly what you're looking for!

Jae.Thomas
10-04-2007, 12:19 PM
i was planning on getting a ribbon next chance i get for mic purchases. that and a kick drum mic.

Staccato
10-05-2007, 09:18 AM
the other instruments are irrelevant. I havent really mixed them yet.

Im just wondering about the vocals.

and yes, multiband compression DUH :)

thx for the reminder tillOK, asking about just the vocal. IMO, other tracks are always relevant to the final mix, and make other tracks sound different.

Alistair S
10-05-2007, 02:30 PM
i was planning on getting a ribbon next chance i get for mic purchases. that and a kick drum mic.

If you haven't got one, I also highly recommend a Shure SM7B, which is a dynamic mic. It needs a lot of gain, but can be great on vocals, and isn't as sibilant as a lot of the condensers. It's a nice, big sound. It has a number of switches for bass rolloff, presence boost etc.

It's good on guitar cabs, and I'm told it can make a good kick/bass cab mic. It's also built like a tank.

I recently got one and love it. The prox effect is beautiful, when you want it.

Slim Cutty
10-05-2007, 03:34 PM
Shure SM58 ... MPA GOLD (no toob just bypass) ... FMR 1773 compressor and a few plugins does it for me.

I do hip hop and I always sway away from condensor mics because of siblance. If you're doing rock music or whatever I suggest not to use a condensor. Digital recording introduces harshness by nature so you want to put a bit of analog in the chain to knock out the digititus. A good pre-amp can work wonders.

Once your vocal is In the box ... I suggest you use waves V-Series and or Waves SSL 4000 ... they do a great job at adding warmth (saturation) and depth or distance with the vocal. I don't know what algorithms are put into the "analog" button on the v-series but it does a hell of a job in smoothing out vocal harshness attributed to digital recording ... my 2 cents hope it helps someone.

CRITIQUE OF YOUR MIX

Not a bad mix ... vocals are up front a bit much but I've heard much worst. You're not going to get much depth and gloss without analog gear or recording to tape ... just from my experience I'll say that. I've been chasing "that" sound for years and I just realize that digital recording is just a different beast. Your crashes and high hats are bit bright as I'm listening to this more ... a little low-pass filter will fix that.

MULTIBAND Compression is not the answer as most mastering engineers only use them as surgical tools and your vocals aren't bad in that sense. Why use a multiband if you have multiple tracks (I understand if you're mastering 1 track but there's no need for one).

I don't know .. overall the mix sounds pretty good ... maybe you should mix 'everything' and then come back to this thread.

Alistair S
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
I think the advantage of multiband compression on a vocal track is that you can adjust compression levels on the sibilant areas of the spectrum only. You can use it as a de-esser, in other words.

You can also sometimes find that compression does nasty things to "sss" sounds (they can start to sound as if you have a lisp), so the opposite is good.. you can lay off compression in that area, while applying it elsewhere.

Jae.Thomas
10-05-2007, 05:25 PM
Not a bad mix ... vocals are up front a bit much but I've heard much worst. You're not going to get much depth and gloss without analog gear or recording to tape ... just from my experience I'll say that. I've been chasing "that" sound for years and I just realize that digital recording is just a different beast. Your crashes and high hats are bit bright as I'm listening to this more ... a little low-pass filter will fix that.



I don't know .. overall the mix sounds pretty good ... maybe you should mix 'everything' and then come back to this thread.

no offense, but i wasnt looking for a critique of my mix. the mix is not even started yet, just the basic instruments in.

as the title says, im only concerned about the vocal sound im getting.

if you want to check out my mixes, check out my music thread :)

glad to have critique there :)

Slim Cutty
10-05-2007, 05:30 PM
I think the advantage of multiband compression on a vocal track is that you can adjust compression levels on the sibilant areas of the spectrum only. You can use it as a de-esser, in other words.

You can also sometimes find that compression does nasty things to "sss" sounds (they can start to sound as if you have a lisp), so the opposite is good.. you can lay off compression in that area, while applying it elsewhere.

Great point there. But it all can be avoided at the source with a good microphone, pre-amp and or compressor while tracking. If you know after experience that you're going to get siblance .. better to handle it beforehand. People tend to push the eq hard at about 4-7k ... I would suggest bumping around 10k instead (as far as vocals go. If you ever notice .. most people De-Ess around 4-7k ... why raise those levels on the eq if you're only going to de-ess anyway?

But to each his own .. so many ways at getting at it. I just think the issue is digital recording. Although not abundantly in use, alot of people still record to tape ... even when they don't do that ... the signal is ran through some good hi-end gear to smooth out vocals. Harshness is just something that hasn't been fully tackled in the digital realm as of yet. Hence, in YOUR FACE vocals with a harsh or brittle high end.

Jae.Thomas
10-05-2007, 06:44 PM
I dont eq or compress on the way in :)

Staccato
10-05-2007, 09:54 PM
Great point there. But it all can be avoided at the source with a good microphone, pre-amp and or compressor while tracking. If you know after experience that you're going to get siblance .. better to handle it beforehand. People tend to push the eq hard at about 4-7k ... I would suggest bumping around 10k instead (as far as vocals go. If you ever notice .. most people De-Ess around 4-7k ... why raise those levels on the eq if you're only going to de-ess anyway?

But to each his own .. so many ways at getting at it. I just think the issue is digital recording. Although not abundantly in use, alot of people still record to tape ... even when they don't do that ... the signal is ran through some good hi-end gear to smooth out vocals. Harshness is just something that hasn't been fully tackled in the digital realm as of yet. Hence, in YOUR FACE vocals with a harsh or brittle high end.Well stated, help can some times be subtle, if the antennae is sensitive enough, and one has the ability to read between the lines, the point can actually be ciphered, the recording definitely has a harshness to it, that comes from the tracking. Sometimes, the point is not taken on the sly.

kneelherring
11-09-2007, 09:39 PM
I find it easier to get a pleasing vocal sound by recording with two microphones and mixing the two signals at the mix stage, there is usually a sweet spot between the two i can find. Just check the mics are in phase. Hope this helps.

mikefloutier
02-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Thank you Staccato,

That's just what I needed. I was searching the forum for a "de-essing" plug and found your advice.

I then looked at the eq on my current vocal track and, sure enough, I had around 4db of boost at 5kHz. I took this out and the sibilance went but along with it the vocal lost the bite I had put the boost in to get.

So, again following your advice, I re-inserted the boost but at 10kHz. Wonderful! I got the bite back but without the sibilance.

Man what a lesson; thank you!!

Mike

PS Sorry Slim, just realised it was your suggestion, but thanks anyway Staccato for endorsing it.

Patch2007
02-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Yes that is a good thing, I like to use compression myself. it makes the vocals sound more fatter, and louder.
I also have used Voxongo Plug ins, they rock.
:)

-Patch

spoon
02-08-2008, 11:59 AM
Could you post this without the FX on?
I dont have a clear picture of what's exaggerated or what's the recording.

BTW, with the SP1, you might try singing into it off-axis.
I have had luck with that mic and technique on a particularly silabant female voice I record often.

Cheers,
David

The Chain Gang Medley (http://jasonbrianmerrill.silverlogix.com/music/covers/chain_gang_medley.mp3)

the mic im using is a studio projects sp-1

I have a vocal preset chain that consists of

reagate
magix amphibia
voxengo harmonieq
voxengo marquis compressor

I LOVE the sound i get

but theres one problem, listen to the file above (and ignore the horrible out of tune sound of the vocals) and tell me if you hear the sss and tch sounds sticking out too much. I dont really hear
it in the initial track..

so im trying to find a way to smoothen these vocals, especially fro this song.

any ideas>?

JasonTheron
02-08-2008, 12:05 PM
The Chain Gang Medley (http://jasonbrianmerrill.silverlogix.com/music/covers/chain_gang_medley.mp3)

the mic im using is a studio projects sp-1

I have a vocal preset chain that consists of

reagate
magix amphibia
voxengo harmonieq
voxengo marquis compressor

I LOVE the sound i get

but theres one problem, listen to the file above (and ignore the horrible out of tune sound of the vocals) and tell me if you hear the sss and tch sounds sticking out too much. I dont really hear
it in the initial track..

so im trying to find a way to smoothen these vocals, especially fro this song.

any ideas>?

This probably a bit late but...
Since you don't hear the sibilance on the initial track,
What if you put your FX chain on a send and put an EQ/multiband comp before it?

boltor
02-12-2008, 03:07 PM
[QUOTE=Slim Cutty;117079]Shure SM58 ... MPA GOLD (no toob just bypass) ... FMR 1773 compressor and a few plugins does it for me.

Did you mean putting the voltage setting on "high" on the MPA Gold when you refer to "no toob just bypass"? I own this mic pre, too and there is no " bypass" feature. If you meant using the high voltage setting, this is not bypassing the tube at all!! In fact, it's utilizing the tube much more because it's sending a much higher voltage through the tube. The increase in clarity that you hear is really from the proper utilization of the tube and not from the SS circuitry. This is the way that the higher end tube mic pre amps are designed. The "toob" sound that people talk/complain about is from inexpensive tube mic pre amps that run on a "starved-plate" (low voltage) design.

boltor

P.S. A great tweak with this pre amp is to replace the stock tubes with higher quality ones. Even better, get your hands on some NOS RCA or GE tubes. The difference in sound is unbelievable.