Drums: Mixing Techniques Used?

[mschuster]

hi all -

i tracked some drums yesterday - and now i'm trying to get a handle on them in a mix.

i'd appreciate hearing how different people approach drums in Reaper.

i know this is a big question, but specifically looking for things like routing, plugs used, specific techinques for getting a good solid kit sound. i did do a search on 'drums mix plugs', but didn't see anything as comprehensive as i was hoping.

i'm especially interested in how people handle OHs - how they pan/process/EQ them.

Here's what I got:
kick
snare
tom1
tom2
tom3
oh-L
oh-R

i am making use of a 'DRUMS' folder to encapsulate all of these. EQ is being placed on each track as needed - as well as verb - and i'm triggering my kick and snare.

thanks in advance.

mark

[Lawrence]

Render them to *.ogg, and post them (if you can) so people can have a go, that way you can hear the different results.

[todd24]

I prosess the overheads first. Get the cymbals right. even them out, but dont kill all the transients. Make sure they arent brittle. Then I move to the kick, check phase, EQ cut 400, boost 4000ish. Auto expand the kick (toms too but later)

Then its the snare. Eq a boost into the sweet spot. Depends on the song/snare. Check phase. Route to a verb track through a hard gate. a few ms of pre delay on the verb can add huge depth if you pan it off center. Also the verb can really tune the sound of the snare if you EQ it as well.

Low cut the toms until the mud get out of the mix. and expand them so they are punchy.

I like using a little Dominion transient designer on all of the drum close mics to make them pop out of the mix. Aslo you can reduce the length of the toms if they are ringy. Dont over do it.

I will use a multi band comp on the bus to dial it all together AFTER i do the rest. I use mostly as a three band EQ though. Dont over squash, drum need to breath.

[mschuster]

thanks guys.

i uploaded a few second except from the song of each of the drum tracks - raw. no plugs. should include everything.

RAR file: http://www.markbschuster.com/mp3/drums.rar


kick = audix d6

snare, all toms = 57's

oh's= mxl - spaced pair

for whatever it's worth.. i uploaded what i'm doing to these for a reference. very rough, slapped together this morning. kick and snare are being triggered and blended w/ original. toms are going to a reverb send. (toms are concerning me...). most have eq/comp. mast.limiter/exciter/hpfilter on master.

http://www.markbschuster.com/mp3/marks_sample.mp3

todd, regarding the cymbals - you mention Make sure they arent brittle can you elaborate what that means in EQ terms?

also - if you don't mind - could you also elaborate on how you specifically check for phase issues. i understand what phase issues are, just wondering how you manually go about determining if one exists. for example, bring up the snare and overheads alone and flip the phase on one of the OHs to see if the snare disapears, etc..

thank you both!!

the music is hard rock/metal for ref.

mark

[todd24]

The Eq setings are song/cymbal dependent. You just have to do it by ear. Usually it means cutting above a certain point and boosting just below it.

I check phase by listening to the low end when switching the phase. Sometimes it will help to EQ more bass so it is easier to determine. With a phase switch there are only two options. Pick the one that sounds better, IE more full. Sometimes A phase switch is not going to help and slideing the tracks a bit might work better. Zoom way in and line up the transients.

[mschuster]

thanks todd.

can i get away with asking one more question? when you say I like using a little Dominion transient designer on all of the drum close mics do you create one track with just the Dominion transient designer and SEND from the others to it - or place it directly on each of the close mic'd tracks?

[todd24]

thanks todd.

can i get away with asking one more question? when you say do you create one track with just the Dominion transient designer and SEND from the others to it - or place it directly on each of the close mic'd tracks?

I use it on each track of close mics (IE not on the overhead....though you could) One per track. You have to really learn how to set it, or you get huge spikes in transients that start to sound like pops. I am runing the attack at somwhere in the 30-50ms area for 4db or so......as a starting point. I use the sustain on the low tom, and kick, to reduce ring at somewhere between 130-260ms and -12db or so. Its usually in conjunction with the Auto Expander to soften the "Closeing" Either before or after. It just depends.

You have to find numbers that work on YOUR material though.

[Staccato]

hi all -

i tracked some drums yesterday - and now i'm trying to get a handle on them in a mix.

i'd appreciate hearing how different people approach drums in Reaper.

i know this is a big question, but specifically looking for things like routing, plugs used, specific techinques for getting a good solid kit sound. i did do a search on 'drums mix plugs', but didn't see anything as comprehensive as i was hoping.

i'm especially interested in how people handle OHs - how they pan/process/EQ them.

Here's what I got:
kick
snare
tom1
tom2
tom3
oh-L
oh-R

i am making use of a 'DRUMS' folder to encapsulate all of these. EQ is being placed on each track as needed - as well as verb - and i'm triggering my kick and snare.

thanks in advance.

markLook a few threads down:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15239

The less plugins, the better.

[likenokevin]

None of the links are working for me.

[JasonTheron]

Depending on genre, I like to shape the overall drum sound from the OH and Room mics first.
Then add the close mics to fill in the gaps.
That tends to make my drums sound more "real".

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

I found this on the web years ago (don't remember where) and haven't used another drum mixing approach since. (I've tried other ways of doing it but always return to this, I just love how easy it gets to control the mix once it set up.)

I always use parrellel (NY) compression but like this....

I create 5 Groups;

Group 1 - Has no inserts and has all the drum audio tracks routed to it - this gives me a nice natural dry drum mix.
Group 2 - Has a compresser inserted and all the drum audio tracks Aux Send 1 routed to it - this gives me heavy overcompressed dry mix.
Group 3 - Has a transient modifier inserted and all the drum audio tracks Aux Send 2 routed to it - this gives me a harsh clicky dry mix.
Group 4 - Has a drum room reverb inserted and all the drum audio tracks Aux Send 3 routed to it - this gives me a wet only drum mix.
Group 5 - Has no inserts and Groups 1 to 4 are routed to it - this gives me a mix of all the above ie overall drum mix.

1. I start with Group 1 and Group 5 faders at 0dB with Groups 2, 3 & 4 set at Infinity and get a nice natural dry drum mix
2. Then i slowly add Group 2 until the natural drum mix starts to get Phatt with the compression....mmmm lurvly!
3. Then slowly add Group 3 untill it gives just enough click to kick snare hats & perc etc.
4. Then slowly sprinkle in Group 4 to bring the drum sound alive with reverb!

In the UK, listen to 5am's mix of Lemars latest single "Not That Easy" or Christina Aguileras "Ain't No other Man" for an example of this

Regards,
- Jonas

[mschuster]

thanks everyone. i've had a few major personal distractions lately - but hope to get back to this soon.

a common theme seems to be starting with the OH's and then moving to close mics. Usually the heavy hitters; kick, snare - and then toms.

Jonas - the method you described looks very interesting, i'd like to give it a shot. i'm assuming i could group all the drums like i do now with a 'folder' - and then create a SEND to the other tracks/group (dry,comp,verb,etc). Is that about how you do it?

mark

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

Actually, I don't use folders at all - I do all my sending/receiving in the routing matrix (mainly because I''ve been to lazy to try and find out how the folders work :)).

But if I understand things correctly it should work fine to make a a folder for all the individual drum tracks and then send from that folder to the other tracks, just like you described it.

And do try it, I find it gives me a natural sounds that works well even in busy mixes.

Regards,
- Jonas

[mschuster]

jonas, gave this a try today. very, very nice!

it forces you to isolate the different sounds of the kit fx-wise (including raw, comp, trans, verb as fx's), listen to each and get happy before adding the next. that alone is probably worth this approach.

a couple things popped up as i was doing it and i'm wondering if someone can clarify?

i did group all my drums into a folder (DRUMS). i then created a SEND from the folder to each of the other 4 groups: DRUMCOMP, DRUMTRANS, DRUMVERB and DRUMMST (i.e group 5).

i simply put ReaXcomp on the DRUMCOMP group, dominion trans shaper on DRUMTRANS and SIR impulse/verb on the DRUMVERB. Nothing on DRUMMST.

here's my first question: i like the BLOCKFISH comp on my kick. i also like a very specific comp/verb on my snare. when i send these (via the DRUMS folder) to DRUMCOMP, it's getting compressed twice. is that good recording technique? a personal choice?

Second question is: when I SEND from the DRUMS folder - I'm assuming that should always be PRE-FX, correct? I don't have anything on the DRUMS folder fx-wise now, but may in the future. Does PRE-FX on a folder **ALSO** negate any FX in children tracks?? hmmm. i'm assuming you always want the "raw" kit sound going to these other groups.

thanks in advance.
mark

[beatbybit]

i did group all my drums into a folder (DRUMS). i then created a SEND from the folder to each of the other 4 groups: DRUMCOMP, DRUMTRANS, DRUMVERB and DRUMMST (i.e group 5).


i think you've just lost many-many mixing variations.

i mean, try adding all those sends per track, not to the folder.
individual sends (1-4) for all the separate tracks.

you can always set their send levels to the same level. but you can't send a different mix to the heavy comp for eg., if you have the send on the folder (mixed drum) track.

my 2c.

[mschuster]

try adding all those sends per track, not to the folder.
individual sends (1-4) for all the separate tracks.



good point. i guess i was just being my "over-anal" self.. lol.. you know, why send 8 tracks when you can just send 1!

i could skip the compress AND verb on the kick and snare tracks and let the rest take advantage of them.

m

[cAPSLOCK]

I wanted to give this a shot, but the files are 404...

[mschuster]

sorry guys.. i just noticed someone else above had an issue awhile back too.

the files are actually there and named correctly (as far as what i'm seeing) - but for some reason they aren't accessible. anybody else ever have this issue with a web server and OGG files? very odd. there must be something "hidden" in the filename i'm not seeing on my Vista system AND the web server.

anyway - i created a RAR of all the *.ogg files and uploaded. probably should have done this anyway.. smaller.

http://www.markbschuster.com/mp3/drums.rar

mark

[antiClick]

For what I'v heard in the sketch mix you posted... I'd avoid that triggered samples, they do not sound very natural. Maybe fix miking technique

Toms sounded like not tuned, with almost 0 decay
The cymbals sounded almost .... better

cheers

PS: I'v done a mix of your drums, but i dont wanna be the first to post it :D

[Bevosss]

Reverence is a plate verb that is perfect for snare


Hey cheers for the tip, it sounds pretty good on the site, but there's no clips of snares through it or a demo to try.

Any chance you could upload a quick sample of a snare through reverence to stashbox? :)

[flight]

Group 3 - Has a transient modifier inserted and all the drum audio tracks Aux Send 2 routed to it - this gives me a harsh clicky dry mix.




I know what a transient modifier is in Java, but not here. Can you tell me what you use here?

:confused:

[antiClick]

Hey cheers for the tip, it sounds pretty good on the site, but there's no clips of snares through it or a demo to try.

Any chance you could upload a quick sample of a snare through reverence to stashbox? :)

LOL! I'v just mixed that drums, but didn't like a plate reverb there. I used a Breverb hall instead

[mschuster]

For what I'v heard in the sketch mix you posted... I'd avoid that triggered samples, they do not sound very natural. Maybe fix miking technique

Toms sounded like not tuned, with almost 0 decay
The cymbals sounded almost .... better

cheers

PS: I'v done a mix of your drums, but i dont wanna be the first to post it :D

my intention was to always "trigger" the toms in Reaper so I didn't spend too much time tuning them. although - I did use a drum dial on them - but did not tune them as a group. the 0 decay is probably the evans muting rings... and too much duct tape.. ;) they are new evans heads, though.

can you elaborate what you didn't like about the cymbals?

[beatbybit]

I know what a transient modifier is in Java, but not here. Can you tell me what you use here?

:confused:

LOSER's TransientDesigner, for eg.

[antiClick]

my intention was to always "trigger" the toms in Reaper so I didn't spend too much time tuning them. although - I did use a drum dial on them - but did not tune them as a group. the 0 decay is probably the evans muting rings... and too much duct tape.. ;) they are new evans heads, though.

can you elaborate what you didn't like about the cymbals?

Mainly I found the hihat too close to the mics.
In that style of music I wouldn't use that mics (very good definition thoug).... Try to place it quite higher.

My try: http://stash.reaper.fm/544/prova%20drums.ogg
It's hard to mix drums without the context of music.
Sorry I couldn't do better ... no dinamcs in the snare, plus too much hihat.

No limiter there, so turn your volume up! :)

[mschuster]

yea, i had trouble "quieting" the hi-hat when recording. i tried a few different OH combinations - but i've come to accept that i REALLy whack the hi-hat.. lol..

the other issue - and this may be the more important one - is that the room i'm recording in has a fairly low ceiling - and well - it's a room in my house - and not a studio treated for acoustic damping/high ceilings/wood floor/etc...

the snare has been an issue. this was my 3rd or 4th attempt at recording drums live. when people say the drumkit is the hardest instrument to record - they ain't kidding. i have a 57 on it - and tried several different mic'ing positions - all w/ the field nulling the hat - but it always sounds "flat". most likely the 'cheap' snare. i'm finding the quality of the kit really makes a difference, like a guitar/bass.

i intentionally didn't include a limiter or any FXs to keep it raw.

thanks.
m

[cAPSLOCK]

Here's one...

http://stash.reaper.fm/545/nvmschusterdrums1.ogg

Usually I would use my own FX, but this is reaper FX only. Also I would likely use some triggered snare samples to beef up, or in this case brighten up the track. But not here.

I am sure it's been said on this thread more than once...

The "trashy" overheads, and the "snare problems" are as much the instrument as anything else... then the room ... THEN the mic position. Room will matter less on the snare mic.

But if the cymbals are trashy sounding in the room... well the mics are doing their job exactly.

It is, IMHO a decent recording of drums. Quite usable if you were to bring in to my work. Smoothing out the overheads is something I would spend A LOT of time on here though, and obviously getting a better sound up front is much easier.

I'll go out on a limb and guess the cymbals are Sabian B8 or Zildjian ZBTs or the like... yes?

Oh... heres the RPP etc if you want it.
http://stash.reaper.fm/547/nvmschusterdrums1.rar

cAPS

[mschuster]

THANK YOU to everyone who's taken some time and provided such great feedback. truly worth gold!

i look forward to listening to what a few of you have come up with on your own. i'm sure i'll have some questions. i've had a sick child all week - so haven't had much time to 'play', but hopefully things will free up soon. when i do have some time, i'll remix the kit using all the great info here and post it with the other instruments for reference. i've already started with the technique noted by Jonas - and so far very happy.

regarding the kit, for those of you interested - it's a Pearl Export (EX) w/ Paiste cymbals. beginner at best, but not horrible. my intention, as usual, was to simply test the waters and "cut my teeth" on recording drums before sinking any serious money into a maple kit. here's a few pics that might help in evaluating the sound. very small room, low ceiling, rug underneath - truly a 'home recording'. none of which is probably helping produce a good room sound, but all i have for now. (and yes, those are my kids toys in the background.. ;) )

http://www.markbschuster.com/images/oh.jpg
http://www.markbschuster.com/images/kit.jpg
http://www.markbschuster.com/images/kit_front.jpg

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

I liked cAPSLOCK's idea of doing it only with plugs bundled with Reaper, so here´s my take on it:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/58587/drums-mixdown.mp3

but I cheated a little and used a few samples (but hey, at least they´re samples from our own Pipeline), here's the project folder with the samples (zipped):

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/58558/drums.zip

And yeah, it was mixed on headphones only so I hope it doesn't crap out totally on speakers. (My son (12 months old) is having a cold and as a result doesn't sleep well - thus no mixing on speakers :) )

Regards,
- Jonas

[antiClick]

yea, i had trouble "quieting" the hi-hat when recording. i tried a few different OH combinations - but i've come to accept that i REALLy whack the hi-hat.. lol..

the other issue - and this may be the more important one - is that the room i'm recording in has a fairly low ceiling - and well - it's a room in my house - and not a studio treated for acoustic damping/high ceilings/wood floor/etc...


Did you try an XY mic configuration with overheads?
That would avoid any phase problems between L & R.
As it is now, it's not possible to make it mono-compatible, and it will probably only sound right through headphones or nearfields.

Hope it helped

[mschuster]

Did you try an XY mic configuration with overheads?
That would avoid any phase problems between L & R.
As it is now, it's not possible to make it mono-compatible, and it will probably only sound right through headphones or nearfields.

Hope it helped

no, it was a spaced pair (*see pics i posted earlier today above). i was very careful not to violate the 3:1 rule. i don't believe there are phase issues.

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

That's funny, I just checked out cAPS mix and we've used the same reverb impulses! Given the number of impulses avaliable these days, what are the odds? (And it makes me kind of proud since I made those impulses some time ago at a friends studio :) )

Sorry for hijacking.

Regards,
- Jonas

[cAPSLOCK]

Thanks for the impulses Jonas.. ;) I've been meaning to ask your permission to put them on Noisevault.

I meant no offense to your drums mschuster. I was only meaning to point out that the way they sound is 90% of the way they record.

[antiClick]

no, it was a spaced pair (*see pics i posted earlier today above). i was very careful not to violate the 3:1 rule. i don't believe there are phase issues.

sorry if I wasn't clear.
I'v seen you used an spaced pair, but given the phase issues I'd try an XY configuration (given you can't take the mics higher).

Just solo overheads, pan them hard left & hard right, and insert a phase meter in the master (now you see the correlation is about 0)..... then press the mono button, and you'll hear the problem.

cheers



Here you have the project file, and the resulting render:

[antiClick]

Any chance you could upload a quick sample of a snare through reverence to stashbox? :)

Hey, look the attachment in the post above.
I finally used reverence there, but it's fairly unnoticiable (until you mute it) :)

[mschuster]

I meant no offense to your drums mschuster. I was only meaning to point out that the way they sound is 90% of the way they record.

no offense taken. i understand what you meant. i just wanted anybody taking the time to mix these to have a little more information regarding the source.

when i set out earlier this year to tackle recording "real drums" for the first time (got fed up with drum machines, my dm5), i knew it was going to be tough. i didn't know exactly "what" i was going to encounter - but that it was indeed going to be a challenge. i feel like i'm getting more comfortable with how certain mics and mic'ing techinques affect the sound, now i need to focus on several elements kindly shared in this thread. if it wasn't challenging, it wouldn't be fun. right? ;) and the bottom line is, i'm intention has never been to invent a new stellar drum mic'ing technique - just record some half-way decent drums for my next CD and have fun along the way.

Just solo overheads, pan them hard left & hard right, and insert a phase meter in the master (now you see the correlation is about 0)..... then press the mono button, and you'll hear the problem.


thanks for this info anticlick. can you tell me what 'phase meter' you are using and a link to get? is there a stock Reaper one? a free version? and this is kinda a stupid question, but when you say "press the mono button" - you mean the phase button on the master, correct?

as for the XY pair - yea - i've tried that a few times. i always end up going back to the spaced pair because it has a bigger, more open sound. i did try to be very careful and observe the 3:1 rule, perhaps i fell short of my goal. thanks.

i did listen to each of the mp3/ogg samples kindly put together by a few of you. each had a some very nice qualities to them. it became clear to me as i was listening, that unless i want to re-record (which means waiting another month or two until the opportunity arises... ugh ... double ugh), i'll have to sample minimally the snare and toms to be happy. i love PipeLine's kicks - and will re-try his snares. i also like Andy Sneap's snares and toms.

mark

[cAPSLOCK]

Drum replacement/augmentation is a fairly easy and common thing... There are tools, of course, here in reaper to do it... There is also Drumagog and the one I use Aptrigga. http://apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php

Your snare and kick sound pretty good though.

[mschuster]

Drum replacement/augmentation is a fairly easy and common thing... There are tools, of course, here in reaper to do it... There is also Drumagog and the one I use Aptrigga. http://apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php

Your snare and kick sound pretty good though.

thanks. i've been using the SStillwell:drumtrigger and ReaSamplOmatic5000 plugs for awhile. works pretty well - but i've had difficulty getting some intricate rhythm patterns, on the snare especially, to sync 100% using the SStillwell trigger. takes a LOT of work. I did download the Drumagog trial a while back. Was VERY impressed with their "out-of-the-box" dead on tracking/triggering with little or no tweaking. just haven't had the extra $$ laying around lately to buy - and as long as I get the the free stuff to work, well.. lol.

[antiClick]

as for the XY pair - yea - i've tried that a few times. i always end up going back to the spaced pair because it has a bigger, more open sound. i did try to be very careful and observe the 3:1 rule, perhaps i fell short of my goal. thanks.


Did you also tried a Mid-Side configuration?
This offers a very wide image, while offering a very mono compatible image. It produces an exceptionally realistic stereo image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound#Various_methods_of_stereo_recor ding

.... and it's placement is so funky :D


thanks for this info anticlick. can you tell me what 'phase meter' you are using and a link to get? is there a stock Reaper one? a free version? and this is kinda a stupid question, but when you say "press the mono button" - you mean the phase button on the master, correct?


I don't think there is a reaper phase meter. Hope soon or later somebody will develop a JS one.

I'm using Inspector XL, but I'v attached a free one: C-SuperStereo

[Mike1]

Mark, very unusual sound of snare and toms. Strange...
Usually it has purer sound.
I liked cAPSLOCK'mix. It is an example of work of professional.
I use similar ways in more simple mixes.

The solution for creation BUS for drums:

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/59069/Drums_mix.RPP
http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/58716/Drums_mix.mp3

Michael

[Bevosss]

Drum replacement/augmentation is a fairly easy and common thing... There are tools, of course, here in reaper to do it... There is also Drumagog and the one I use Aptrigga. http://apulsoft.ch/aptrigga/index.php


That's interesting Caps, I saw Fluffy say he was using Aptrigga as well. Could you elaborate why you prefer it over Drumagog?

[pipelineaudio]

Here's mine

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/14242/metal-what.RPP

[cAPSLOCK]

That's interesting Caps, I saw Fluffy say he was using Aptrigga as well. Could you elaborate why you prefer it over Drumagog?

I don't "prefer it over" exactly. It was just at the time I found it to be a great deal. (This was when 35E was about 35$ unlike now).

I bought it as a stop gap for drumagog... but after using it... well it's good enough for me.

The only thing I miss is the random pool of Drumagog, which is a great idea. But in practice, 9 velocity layers mixed with the live snare is really fine with a good sample.

I am enjoying these mixes...

Your, Pipe.. msut be routed strangely for me as it's quiet.. but I figure it out. ;) Oh and how did you make the wave views zoom like that... this is a feature I don't know how to do.

[pipelineaudio]

I right clicked them and made them mono

[todd24]

yea, i had trouble "quieting" the hi-hat when recording. i tried a few different OH combinations - but i've come to accept that i REALLy whack the hi-hat.. lol..

the other issue - and this may be the more important one - is that the room i'm recording in has a fairly low ceiling - and well - it's a room in my house - and not a studio treated for acoustic damping/high ceilings/wood floor/etc...

the snare has been an issue. this was my 3rd or 4th attempt at recording drums live. when people say the drumkit is the hardest instrument to record - they ain't kidding. i have a 57 on it - and tried several different mic'ing positions - all w/ the field nulling the hat - but it always sounds "flat". most likely the 'cheap' snare. i'm finding the quality of the kit really makes a difference, like a guitar/bass.

i intentionally didn't include a limiter or any FXs to keep it raw.

thanks.
mI have had trouble with hats being to loud as well. I have found the only solution is to use quiter hats, and a louder snare. No mic positioning can fix it when the hat is in EVERY mic louder than the intended source.

Teaching drummers to hit diferantly is a losing battle.

[mschuster]

Mark, very unusual sound of snare and toms. Strange...

LOL... hmm, well.. what can i say? Michael, i do like what you're doing with the toms.

Did you also tried a Mid-Side configuration?

no, never heard of that one. i did read the Wiki page though. unusual. btw - thanks for the c-superstereo plug. i never cease to be amazed at the really cool plugs out there, most free. unfortunately, i'm still confused. i did load up the plug, solo'd the OHs (panned hard L/R) and then tried to deciper what i was seeing. unk! the only real doc i could find on the plug was delivered from the author (who, subsequently appears to have pulled these plugs). he talks about the "shape" of what's drawn. a filled oval appears to be a good, natural stereo image - where as an oval that's "wider" (or circle) is more out of phase. the PHASE DIFFERENCE at the bottom did show ~90 (degrees?). does that mean 90 degrees out of phase? i did 'mono' and am not sure what i should be listening for specifically. fundamentally - i would just like to a) understand what the problem is and then b) determine how to fix it. i'm hoping it's as easy as flipping one of the OH phase buttons. any help would be appreciated. thanks.

boy - talk about a wealth of information in these RPP files. it's interesting to see how everyone approaches drums, techniques, eq, plugs, etc. no wonder no two drumkits sound alike. it also helps to cement some assumptions i've had about how people do things (as well as learn completely new ones). for example - i always wonder how people pan OH's. Some say hard L/R, while others say that's not true in a typical stage setting. thoughts?

Pipe - thanks for reminding me about the 50hz kick plug and Loser's compciter. both plugs i've forgotten about. i actually tried a sidechain off my kick to MDA's subsynth plug last night and got some really good results. made a huge difference by beefing up and "rounding" the kick.

finally - i'm having trouble with coming up with any good settings for my Dominion Signal Modelling plug. if someone else has this plug - could you possibly offer some 'presets' or common settings and describe in what situation you use it and what for?

thanks again everyone for your contributions. i highly encourage anybody else who's just reading through this thread to download a few of these RPP files and take a peek. a ton of good info!

mark

[Mike1]

Mark, you have exclusive drums. But I think, is impossible to leave from classics.

http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/59819/drum_overheads.png

It works with any microphones (I tested), and it has a sound without plug-ins

You can listen it in the Reaper:
http://www.telefunkenusa.com/literature/downloads/nashvilleDemos/

[antiClick]

no, never heard of that one. i did read the Wiki page though. unusual. btw - thanks for the c-superstereo plug. i never cease to be amazed at the really cool plugs out there, most free. unfortunately, i'm still confused. i did load up the plug, solo'd the OHs (panned hard L/R) and then tried to deciper what i was seeing. unk! the only real doc i could find on the plug was delivered from the author (who, subsequently appears to have pulled these plugs). he talks about the "shape" of what's drawn. a filled oval appears to be a good, natural stereo image - where as an oval that's "wider" (or circle) is more out of phase. the PHASE DIFFERENCE at the bottom did show ~90 (degrees?). does that mean 90 degrees out of phase? i did 'mono' and am not sure what i should be listening for specifically. fundamentally - i would just like to a) understand what the problem is and then b) determine how to fix it. i'm hoping it's as easy as flipping one of the OH phase buttons. any help would be appreciated. thanks.


Hi!
The phase should be moving at about 45º.
Do the test with a comercial song, so then press the mono button and you won't hear a dramatic change. Try the same with the overheads and you'll hear that some parts of the drum changes dramatically.

The biggest problem is when the phase is at 90, because flipping L or R 180º won't solve anything (90+180=270=90). The only way to fix it is next time change mic placement.


cheers
hope it helped

PS: try Mike1's non coincident approach, or a the MS if you have an eight-figure microphone.

[mschuster]

Hi!
The phase should be moving at about 45º.
Do the test with a comercial song, so then press the mono button and you won't hear a dramatic change. Try the same with the overheads and you'll hear that some parts of the drum changes dramatically.

The biggest problem is when the phase is at 90, because flipping L or R 180º won't solve anything (90+180=270=90). The only way to fix it is next time change mic placement.


thanks for that explanation.

mark

[frott]

There is a handy anti-phase procedure for micing drums called the recorderman/glyn johns method. It's quick and easy to set up and makes an amazingly fat drum sound with little effort.

This allows you to then close mic your snare and bassdrum and mix it in to taste.



Step 1:
take three drumsticks and put them straight up from the center of your snare drum top. Place OH1 here, pointed at the snare drum.

Step 2a: use a length of rope or cable and hold one end between bass drum beater and the drum.

Step 2b: bring that up to the mic, pinch and hold it there

Step 2c: then bring it down to the center of the snare and hold it there.

You should be pinning it down with your foot, pinching it up above your snare and down on your snare making a triangle.

Step 3: now while holding all that, move the triangle over to behind your drummers right shoulder. Point this mic at the snare as well.


Viola, in a few minutes you now have a perfectly in phase everything! If your snare is hot enough or you're going for more punch in your bass drum, aim the mics at the bass drum. The important thing is that the OHs are the same distance away from the parts that will be centered. You also get an amazingly nice, natural spread / image of the rest of the kit without the cymbals being overwhelming.

[mschuster]

There is a handy anti-phase procedure for micing drums called the recorderman/glyn johns method. It's quick and easy to set up and makes an amazingly fat drum sound with little effort.

This allows you to then close mic your snare and bassdrum and mix it in to taste.



Step 1:
take three drumsticks and put them straight up from the center of your snare drum top. Place OH1 here, pointed at the snare drum.

Step 2a: use a length of rope or cable and hold one end between bass drum beater and the drum.

Step 2b: bring that up to the mic, pinch and hold it there

Step 2c: then bring it down to the center of the snare and hold it there.

You should be pinning it down with your foot, pinching it up above your snare and down on your snare making a triangle.

Step 3: now while holding all that, move the triangle over to behind your drummers right shoulder. Point this mic at the snare as well.


Viola, in a few minutes you now have a perfectly in phase everything! If your snare is hot enough or you're going for more punch in your bass drum, aim the mics at the bass drum. The important thing is that the OHs are the same distance away from the parts that will be centered. You also get an amazingly nice, natural spread / image of the rest of the kit without the cymbals being overwhelming.


thanks - i have actually heard about that - and there's a really good video demostrating exactly what you mention above on youtube. but, for the life of me can't find it this morning. however, did find a lot of other really cool drum micing vids over there, this being one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KiFkMZSYORY

i tried it - like the XY - and didn't find it as pleasing as the spaced pair. i'll just have to work harder on getting the spaced pair correct next time around. in other words - do the phase tests AT THE TIME OF recording.. ;)

[likenokevin]

Recorderman video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ