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timandmonica
04-11-2008, 02:24 AM
I have been using Tracktion for a year or two and have concluded that I need a DAW with a richer feature set. I have decided to focus on Podium and Reaper and won't have a lot of time to spend with either before jumping into one exclusively.

I am not asking for a personal recommendation of one over the other based on my unique needs. Nor do I think one or the other will be the end-all, holy grail of music production. I am just wanting to know some important ways that the two programs differ. At this point, they both seem to offer a very similar feature set and I want to see what sets them apart. What is it that makes them different and not clones of each other? Maybe an example would be to contrast them as such:

Reaper = customizable interface, unlimited tracks, Rewire host and slave.
Podium = loads and saves FLAC, has tab to transient, 64-bit processing.

So that would be an example of what I am asking for (assuming they really differ in those areas - I have no idea if they do!)

I definitely install the demos of both applications, but with my limited time I am undoubtedly going to miss many things, probably even obvious ones that only seasoned users would be able to point out as being something worth stating.

Does anybody have enough experience with both to help me fast-forward this process? Thanks in advance!
__________

ugh
04-11-2008, 02:42 AM
I do not know Podium or Tracktion.
But as far as the appearance goes, Reaper`s Appearance can be altered the way you like it. There are a lot of user-made "themes" available :

http://stash.reaper.fm/tag/Themes
http://stash.reaper.fm/tag/Classic-Themes

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 03:00 AM
Reaper`s Appearance can be altered the way you like it. There are a lot of user-made "themes" available

This is one reason why forums are so useful. A noob doesn't see one thing as obvious vs. another. To me it's all new! The simple feature of themes was as unknown to me as any deep functions that exist.

Thanks!

DuX
04-11-2008, 06:31 AM
I've tried Podium many times and concluded it's definitely one of the best DAW's out there and it's audio engine and GUI fluency is the best hands down of every DAW I've used so far. However, Podium has a bit steep learning curve - in other words it is more complicated to use until you get very familiar with it than Reaper. One big plus for Podium is it's stability - it's very very stable, probably the most stable DAW I've ever used. Podium is more friendly [as in "more stability and compatibility] for VSTi and MIDI users, too.

On the other hand, Reaper is very easy to use. Reaper's stability, GUI and audio engine fluency is also improving day by day and hopefully will be on par with Podium some day. You must take in account that Podium is also a much more mature piece of code.

Anyway, if you don't have the patience to learn the Podium's workflow, I'd suggest to get Reaper as it is more than a bit easier to learn how to use it. If you have enough patience... well it's up to you. You can try Podium and compare the two. If you ask me, I'm thinking of buying Podium, too.

My 2c :).

Cheers!

Diogenes
04-11-2008, 07:16 AM
I agree with DuX. I gave Podium a test drive and was massively confused in a very short time. I didn't get the hang of it at all. I found Reaper to be fast and intuitive from the start. Having said that, I may want to grab Podium again just to see... ;)

D

BoxOfSnoo
04-11-2008, 07:31 AM
You may want to browse around http://stash.reaper.fm/ to see what can be done with themes.

jens
04-11-2008, 07:39 AM
It's very difficult to compare the two. Frits (Podium's developer) is a keyboarder himself, Justin is a guitar-player. If you are working with external synthesizers/keyboards then Podium is the thing for you. If you are mainly recording audio then I'd recommend Reaper.

To compare Reaper and Tracktion is much more easy and I think here Reaper wins hands-down, albeit Tracktion has its object-editor, while you still can't dock Reaper's item-properties.

jens
04-11-2008, 07:42 AM
You may want to browse around http://stash.reaper.fm/ to see what can be done with themes.

you just can't compare Reaper's UI with that of Podium, no matter what theme you use - Podium is light-years ahead of Reaper in that regard. Before Frits founded Zynewave, he was the interface-developer for TC. A good interface is much than just a few shiny buttons.

bullshark
04-11-2008, 07:48 AM
The thing is, coming from Tracktion, like I did, you'll have a far easier time coming to grip with Reaper than with Podium. Podium is...different.

As to compare feature-for-feature, both have an extremely expansive feature set; best is to post the features you absolutely need and we could tell you if they are in there or not.

PaulG
04-11-2008, 01:05 PM
I came from Tracktion - loved it because of how fast I could get ideas out.

So, I'm quite vain, too - I LOVED the themes in this forum's theme repository...so I tried REAPER and shortly after, with the track, FX chain templates, and the tool-less MIDI controls (which I love), I couldn't believe that I could get ideas down FASTER than Tracktion.

I bought and resold Podium because, although it seems like a good host, I don't feel that I could get an idea down in a way that made it quick and easy. (I'm a rock guitar player, too...)

Once I saw some of the customizability and the obvious user-productivity features, even if I didn't use them much, like macros, etc, I jumped ship just for the amount of material I get that I need to process.

I'd just offer to make sure you're clear about what YOUR intentions, needs, and interests are before you decide to go with one or the other. It's easy to see how someone else's advice makes sense on an intellectual level, but when it comes to your own use it just may not fit right.

One point worth mentioning, too, is that this forum rocks. And by "this forum" I mean the members and those who post. Over at KVR the level of viciousness and facts-disguised-as-opinions is too high for me to take much longer.

You'll get lots of good direction and advice here, and it won't be, in general, ego-inflated. (Just try reading a few posts over at Cakewalk or Cubase.net for example. Like an angry, dysfunctional, abusive family, if you even want to call it that!)

REAPER isn't as intuitive as Tracktion right from the get-go, but with the free (big) .pdf doc (and possibly even the video tutorials) you'd be up and running quite possibly at a very acceptible level in no time.

Contrast that with Sonar, Cubase, and even Podium, of which manuals I studied for hours and still didn't get one piece of music done. But this is, of course, just me. Others do well with all those mentioned and yet you have ProTools converts here.

You'll love REAPER if you like a good looking host - just look at the high-rated themes. But you know what? You'd love Podium and others, too.

So it's more about value to YOU. REAPER is fast, highly customizable, and (no offense to Monica) can be sexy as hell, too.

You don't even have to pay the $50 until you've used the thing beyond a shadow of a doubt to make sure it's right for you, and it's got the only uncrippled, unexpiring demo-user period that I know of from any company.

jens
04-11-2008, 01:12 PM
One point worth mentioning, too, is that this forum rocks. And by "this forum" I mean the members and those who post. Over at KVR the level of viciousness and facts-disguised-as-opinions is too high for me to take much longer.

You'll get lots of good direction and advice here, and it won't be, in general, ego-inflated. (Just try reading a few posts over at Cakewalk or Cubase.net for example. Like an angry, dysfunctional, abusive family, if you even want to call it that!)


While I generally agree, I feel a need to point out though, that Podium also has its own forum with a nice and peaceful community. :)

Sam C
04-11-2008, 01:14 PM
. Frits (Podium's developer) is a keyboarder himself, Justin is a guitar-player. If you are working with external synthesizers/keyboards then Podium is the thing for you. If you are mainly recording audio then I'd recommend Reaper.


Podium has been my main DAW for a year now. I do not understand/agree with this comment. I am a guitar player and I do not do much with VSTi's. Podium is a great audio application. And, as stated above, it is a beautiful interface.

Reaper is considerably easier to use, particularly for traditional windows commands, and is more advanced in most areas.

Both are good apps, I just wanted to comment on the above statement becasue as a regular user, I don't agree.

jens
04-11-2008, 01:29 PM
it always depends on your particular needs. If Podium satisfies yours then that's great - but there's no way Podium could compete with Reaper in regards to working with audio.

Audio is an afterthought in Podium. For example it took several years until Frits finally implemented item-fading.

Sam C
04-11-2008, 01:42 PM
yeah, i am not into the one is better than another topic. i just read your comment to say podium could not handle audio. might be my mistake. however, it does not really matter when items are implemented, only that they are.

using both extensively i believe reaper is easier to use and is more feature rich. podium is very addictive when you get a handle on it though.........in spite of not being up to par with reaper in many areas.

i came to reaper from SAW so to me reaper was extremely easy to get going with. SAW is another program that is counter intuitive but still a killer app.

hell, i think most can get done what any of us need. i still wonder if we even tap into 50% of the possibilities of most DAW's.......

jens
04-11-2008, 02:03 PM
yeah, i am not into the one is better than another topic. i just read your comment to say podium could not handle audio. might be my mistake.


yes, that's not what I said - it's just that Reaper is far more advanced when it comes to working with audio and I think it's much easier to use at the same time.

One huge difference for example is in regards to loop-recording which I think is, frankly put, a pain in the arse with Podium.



hell, i think most can get done what any of us need. i still wonder if we even tap into 50% of the possibilities of most DAW's.......

I know I do - that's what I meant we I said it depends on your particular needs... ;)

Sam C
04-11-2008, 02:20 PM
- but there's no way Podium could compete with Reaper in regards to working with audio.




looking at this post again..........in what ways do you feel podium cannot compete? or, what audio functions can't you do in podium that are available in reaper?

jens
04-11-2008, 02:38 PM
looking at this post again..........in what ways do you feel podium cannot compete? or, what audio functions can't you do in podium that are available in reaper?

I mentioned loop-recording as an example:

the only way to do it in Podium is that Peodium creates a new track
and a new file for each take.

There's no take-system at all and it's not one continous file as in Reaper. Each take starts where it starts and ends where it ends - huge pita.

Also you can't open the recordings in an external editor, there's no ripple-editing, yadda yadda.

Sam C
04-11-2008, 02:46 PM
I mentioned loop-recording as an example:

the only way to do it in Podium is that Peodium creates a new track
and a new file for each take.

There's no take-system at all and it's not one continous file as in Reaper. Each take starts where it starts and ends where it ends - huge pita.

Also you can't open the recordings in an external editor, there's no ripple-editing, yadda yadda.


loop recording is pretty simple.

the takes or lanes is a huge thing not to have.

i do think it is closer than you might be aware. not sure when the last time you reallay got into podium. but i do agree, reaper has more features and is easier to use.

anyway, don't want to beat this to death.........

thanks

jens
04-11-2008, 02:50 PM
................................

jens
04-11-2008, 02:54 PM
.

i do think it is closer than you might be aware.


I rather think the difference is bigger than you realize.

Like I said: each take is an individual file - this is for me a huge shortcoming.


There's no 'render as new take' either (obviously, since tehre are no takes) - and a lot more stuff is missing, compared to Reaper.

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 03:07 PM
yeah, i am not into the one is better than another topic.

Hi Sam

I agree with you and apologize for not making my question clearer at the beginning. I have updated my original question to reflect a little better what I was getting at. Please re-read if you are at all interested.

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I am pasting in a revised version of my original question because I think my original though got lost in these answers. I was not clear enough and apologize for that.

"I have been using Tracktion for a year or two and have concluded that I need a DAW with a richer feature set. I have decided to focus on Podium and Reaper and won't have a lot of time to spend with either before jumping into one exclusively.

I am not asking for a personal recommendation of one over the other based on my unique needs. Nor do I think one or the other will be the end-all, holy grail of music production. I am just wanting to know some important ways that the two programs differ from each other, like on a spec sheet kind of way, maybe. At this point, they both seem to offer a very similar feature set and I want to see what sets them apart. What is it that makes them different and not clones of each other? Maybe an example would be to contrast them as such:

Reaper = customizable interface, unlimited tracks, Rewire host and slave.
Podium = loads and saves FLAC, has tab to transient, 64-bit processing.

So that would be an example of what I am asking for (assuming they really differ in those areas - I have no idea if they do!)

I definitely install the demos of both applications, but with my limited time I am undoubtedly going to miss many things, probably even obvious ones that only seasoned users would be able to point out as being something worth stating.

Does anybody have enough experience with both to help me fast-forward this process? Thanks in advance!"

Tallisman
04-11-2008, 03:13 PM
http://www.zynewave.com/about.html and http://www.zynewave.com/files/PodiumDemo198.zip

http://reaper.fm/features.php and http://reaper.fm/files/2.x/reaper2201-install.exe

there is no way around it.
Comparing DAWs is like discussing politics at family reuinions, or religion.

good luck with the curves!

.t

jens
04-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Sorry, but I think you are asking to much - for example in some ways Podium's interface is much more configurable than that of Reaper - it's object based.

But to explain this alone would be an enormous task, and frankly: personally I'm too lazy for that.

Being one of the first three persons who used Podium (Frits aside), I think I have a fairly good idea of it, since I've been watching its development right from the beginning - and I've also seen Reaper growing for quite some time now - so let me tell you: what you are asking for would fill pages, if done properly.

I think you rather should ask what you are intrested in, what your particular needs are.

Sam C
04-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Hi Sam

I agree with you and apologize for not making my question clearer at the beginning. I have updated my original question to reflect a little better what I was getting at. Please re-read if you are at all interested.

timandmonica, no problem. your question is fine. i am just not qualified to answer in detail because i do not know both programs well enough. i'm not sure any one in either forum does? as much as you do not have the time.... that might be the only way to truly establish which will work for you. i am just not sure that comments like, alot more stuff is missing will suffice?

fwiw, reaper is easier to use. it has, i believe, more features than podium. podium has a unique architecture that is more appealing to me for my style of writing and recording. it would be nice if someone had an accurate top 10 or 20 feature list, but...........

bullshark
04-11-2008, 03:28 PM
At this point, they both seem to offer a very similar feature set and I want to see what sets them apart. What is it that makes them different and not clones of each other?

The workflow and procedure are completely different. You are not going to find this on a tech sheet, nor is one individual preference in that regard is going to mean anything to you.

Tallisman said there are no way around it, let me mirror that as well: you'll have to demo both to see if the program matches how you think.

Unless there are specific features you absolutely need, then ask that question, otherwise it's too vague. I mean, look at the size of the features set from both app from the link Talli posted, do you honestly think somebody is going to go over each and every single item on those list and expand on them?

But if you can be more specific, people here will be more than happy to help you.

Ex:
Can Reaper export a project to a multichannel MIDI file? No.
Can Reaper load video? Yes.

Tedwood
04-11-2008, 03:36 PM
I haven't used Podium myself so I can't comment by comparison, but what I do know is I gave up trying to stuff with audio in Cubase and Sonar that Reaper does falling off a log, armed with only a stereo soundcard I thought I would need new outboard gear for routing audio the way I wanted it. My interest in Open Source led me to the "Jack" routing system in Linux (route anything to anything else), and was quite impressed with Ardour but VST support was lacking (at that time).

All the DAWS I tried were lacking in one department or another, actually to be more precise, things were possible but they were not easy enough to do on the fly, and that interrupted the creative process.

So when I first plugged my guitar into Reaper added some FX and pressed "record" it all fell into place. So I sat down for an hour or so and read the excellent manual and got my head into it, I can't say I have been able to do that with any other DAW. The thing about Reaper is it makes a lot of sense, and a craftsman will tell you he just needs a good set of tools and quality materials to make a thing of beauty.

If Podium was as simple, intuitive and customisable I might consider it, but from what I hear it's highly sophisticated and a steep learning curve, with Reaper after a very short time I have written macros and shortcuts so it works how I want it to, and I want to make music immediately!

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 04:07 PM
My interest in Open Source led me to the "Jack" routing system in Linux (route anything to anything else)...

@Tedwood: Just in case you weren't aware, there is a Windows version of JACK. You can get it here:
http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html

and see a screenshot here:
http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jack_windows.bmp

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 04:08 PM
Sorry, but I think you are asking to much...
to explain this alone would be an enormous task...
what you are asking for would fill pages...
I think you rather should ask what you are interested in, what your particular needs are...

Well, what I guess I was hoping for was kind of like I did in my example: two or three things from each responder that made them unique. Then with the combined total posts, we WOULD have a sheet that would take forever for someone to do by themselves. I thought the Reaper and Podium forums would be the best way to go about something like this, but I seem to be getting a lot of the same responses, "It's too big of a question", and "tell us your unique needs."

The reason I didn't want to say my unique needs is two-fold. I didn't want this post to be only useful for my comparison, but for anybody's. Also, I learn a great deal about what I think I want and need by seeing features discussed. For instance, when I read the CM review for Sonar 7, there were many features they talked about that I never would have asked for, but when they described what they did, I realized that I could greatly benefit from such an inclusion. But to also give something concrete to work with, I'll expound my personal needs.

Phase 1: I primarily come up with ideas using VI's and sort of sketch out ideas. Then I go in and clean up/re-record the MIDI and edit the crap out of it to make it sounds human.

Phase 2: Then I layer all my guitar, bass, and vocals on top. Lot's of editing later, I proceed.

Phase 3: I mix and mix and mix again until I'm happy with the results. Many times I'll have two or three songs by tonally similar artists on other tracks to solo up and reference.

That's pretty much it. I need well-thought out and fully-featured MIDI tools for the 1st, same kind of audio editing and manipulating for the 2nd, and a fast and non-cluttered environment with intuitive automation for the 3rd.

I realize Reaper may not be the strongest MIDI editor out there, but I don't have a problem doing the MIDI in another program if it is clearly beneficial to do so. For example, I am considering doing all the MIDI in Logic, then the rest in Reaper or what not.

Hope this helps!

jens
04-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Hope this helps!

Yes, it does - it's similar to my way of working - Reaper is what I would most strongly recommend to you.


Especially since you write: 'Then I layer all my guitar, bass, and vocals on top. Lot's of editing later, I proceed.' - I think Podium won't make you happy at all - Reaper however will do tenfold.


Let's see what features Reaper has to offer which should interest you:

- track templates - all you track settings e.g. for your typical rhytm-guitar can be stored as a template, including all the typical inserts and their setting. You can also save multiple tracks a s one template

- typical chains of inserts including their settings can also be saved as templates

- loop-recording stores each new take in the take-list, available via right-click, if you cut a snippet out of a take it still has access to the take list and you can cycle through the takes by using shortcuts - it makes comping really easy. Unlike with Podium each take and snippet is always a region of the full file, which means you could fully expand it to see the whole file.

- there are various functions to manage takes (add takes, implode and explode them etc.)

- both midi- and audio-takes can peacefully co-exist in the same take-list (have a midi-imtem which controls a synth that takes a lot of cpu? - simply 'render as new take' and voilá - it magically turns into an audio-item, so that you can disable the plugin, whie the original midi-time is still available via the take-list.


- free item-positioning mode: each track can contain as many midi- and/or audio-items as you like on top of each other (organized vertically - you can resize each individual item)

- you can mute items

- you can put fx on items

etc. etc. - that's just some of the stuff that's possible in Reaper, but not in Podium - it's pretty wild actually... :D

Rednroll
04-11-2008, 04:40 PM
I checked out Podium about a year ago. I thought it was a pretty good program, focused more towards midi than audio....which wasn't a bad thing for me, since there are a lot of good audio DAWs. The last I had communicated with Fritz in the forum, he informed me the similar story of having a hard time getting a response back from Prop Heads to be able to add Rewire to Podium.

So, I'm just curious....Does Podium have Rewire capability now? If it does, then I might check it out again and consider using it for my midi sequencing needs.

DuX
04-11-2008, 05:11 PM
What Jens said :).

Really, for recording/tracking, Reaper has no real competition... Protools maybe, but IMO Reaper is faster, leaner etc.

Cheers!

BoxOfSnoo
04-11-2008, 05:57 PM
you just can't compare Reaper's UI with that of Podium, no matter what theme you use - Podium is light-years ahead of Reaper in that regard. Before Frits founded Zynewave, he was the interface-developer for TC. A good interface is much than just a few shiny buttons.

Well, I just wasn't doing that, was I?

A lot of people simply say there are themes for Reaper, and don't point to any... stash is a good and often overlooked resource.

DuX
04-11-2008, 06:14 PM
The only problem I find with Reaper is GUI fluency - it can't compare to Podium's. Nothing can compare to Podium's GUI fluency in fact... jeez this thing works like hell. :)

Fritz is really a f-good programmer, but Podium is more than a few years old so no wonder... it's pretty much a mature code already.

Cheers!

Bevosss
04-11-2008, 06:38 PM
If Podium could ReWire slave it would be much more attractive...looks like not a high priority for Fritz though.

If the midi in Reaper works out for you, then go Reaper. For almost everything else it kills! Any other daw feels like I'm wading through mud...I require speed! :D

I think the midi is quite well featured and usable (and improving regularly), but only by trying it will YOU know. You can always ReWire in FL studio or Ableton Live or eXT as a vst if you need more features, but they are quite extensive in Reaper if implemented a bit different.

A big bonus is you can learn Reaper fast through the manual/videos on line/sample projects, and any questions generally get answered really fast here, so you can be confident you CAN learn it easily (hey, if I can anyone can!)

So in closing, just download it already and jump in! You should have an idea if it fits in a few hours I'd say...

Mind Riot
04-11-2008, 08:31 PM
I'd never heard of Podium before this thread. Looks cool.

Are there a lot of people using it, or is it kind of an underground thing? I've read tons of threads about DAW comparisons on various forums, but I've never heard of it before today.

Seems priced reasonably too. Man, you can sure get a lot for your dollar in audio software these days.

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 10:59 PM
I'd never heard of Podium before this thread. Looks cool.

Are there a lot of people using it, or is it kind of an underground thing? I've read tons of threads about DAW comparisons on various forums, but I've never heard of it before today.

Seems priced reasonably too. Man, you can sure get a lot for your dollar in audio software these days.

It is mind-blowing what we have to choose from in the $100-ish range. Try going back in time to the Nirvana days or so and transplant your computer and DAW there. Then tell them what you paid for all of it. You'd be seen as a God!

Podium probably has the highest ratio of coolness vs. lack of publicity of any DAW around.

tweed
04-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Podium = no CPU saving mute automation? 'Yes' I believe is the answer... ? Don't know for sure.

When we can automate the per-track FX button it will be another REAPER only COMPLETE solution in the fastest app going.

Anyways, REAPER_Feature-rate is untouchable... [for me] They just keep coming with no gotchas and no bloat. And no, painted-to-sell look. [sobs of joy]

I've looked at podium several times... Personally, and i do mean personally..... I find the interface lacks that, well, non-prettied-up interface that makes REAPER so 'attractive' to me... Frankly, I couldn't use those kind of GUIs as in podium.... [ME that is]

i'll have to be careful here what I say as I'm not gonna spend time to get my comments just right... call it a, 30 years of dedication to sequencers comment if ya like... when I see this, [site quote below] I know the code's not for me... may as well stuff in my Cubase 4 dongle if I'd have to use Podium I'd think [MY opinion here, and not meant to Attempt to Sway anyone]

There was real unique joy in becoming a registered REAPER-ite I found.


[from podium site]

The demo version has the following restrictions:

Message boxes will occasionally appear with demo reminders.
· Audio output will drop temporarily every 60 seconds.
· Import and export of preset files are disabled.
· The demo will expire in May 2008.

timandmonica
04-11-2008, 11:44 PM
Let's see what features Reaper has to offer which should interest you:

- track templates.......... etc.

Jens, you are now my hero. Excellent and supremely helpful! I have decided to jump into Reaper for audio. Still deciding between Sonar or Logic for MIDI (which is funny, since both are very good at audio!) I just dig Reaper on so many levels already and I've barely messed with it!

tweed
04-11-2008, 11:57 PM
REAPER has relations with TEMPER?? [see link below]

[NOTE: just realized I'm a bit off-topic....sorries I guess]

Until REAPER surely shocks us with midi to die for ..... I like it fine right now and I'm not hugely concerned about midi even though I spent YEARS editing Logic's Environment, for one ..... maybe that's why I'm not that concerned...heheduh

Anyways, there's reason enough to consider some clever way for adding an app to do midi with, even if just to have a play with the idea. [my idle late-night thought on that subject]

There's been a couple of 'hmmmm' feisty apps... one that stands out maybe I think is called TEMPER.... gonna take a look at it now and have a think... hope I got that right.. yeah, temper I think..

SYNC: COCKOS REAPER SLAVED TO TEMPER
http://www.angryredplanet.com/temper/ary/al.html


Funny_cool and perhaps interesting....read the 4th post down... at this link...... the reaper comment....

http://www.angryredplanet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=236

P.S. ......uuuhhhh... go draw some midi data with TEMPER... seems to be the compliment to REAPER... heavy on midi... very lite on audio.... talk of a VST version... and again, freaky cool to me what the display does when ya start playing around drawing midi.... maybe I'm just a midi-virgin again from going off midi for the past several seasons... though it seem pretty cool.... sorry for off topic I just realized!!!!!

Tedwood
04-12-2008, 01:28 AM
Jens, you are now my hero. Excellent and supremely helpful! I have decided to jump into Reaper for audio. Still deciding between Sonar or Logic for MIDI (which is funny, since both are very good at audio!) I just dig Reaper on so many levels already and I've barely messed with it!

What is it you want to do with midi that you know Reaper doesn't do already?

I'm no midi expert and I found the midi editor a bit clunky at first, but that was until I read the effin' manual (also good stuff on the wiki) I went to preferences and mapped shortcuts that were familiar to me, and i discovered yesterday I could work on a number of midi items for different midi channels, stack them on top of each other click "glue" and hey presto, I have a multi channel midi item, or I can send selected notes to different channels just by clicking Ctrl+f2 and changing note properties.
Now I can use this single track for controlling up to 16 parts of a sampler or Rewire device, there's a lot of power in one little midi track.

I thought I might have to use another daw for midi but have since found that Reaper has all the tools I need, I just didn't find them in the first place I looked.

Lagiv
04-12-2008, 02:09 AM
I haven't tried Podium, but it looks interesting. But Reaper has all the points you've assigned to Podium:

Podium = loads and saves FLAC, has tab to transient, 64-bit processing.
Check these out:
http://www.reaperaudio.com/features.php
http://www.reaperaudio.com/feat-techspecs.php

* Supports reading/writing most media formats on the fly, including WAV, AIFF, OGG, FLAC, Monkey's Audio (APE), WavPack, and more!
* Tab to transient support
* True 64-bit floating point end-to-end signal path (not just 64-bit summing)

motormind
04-12-2008, 05:22 AM
Podium is fine, but the developer still refuses to implement ReWire. Since I use Reason a lot that's a major point against Podium.

jens
04-12-2008, 05:51 AM
What is it you want to do with midi that you know Reaper doesn't do already?

I'm no midi expert and I found the midi editor a bit clunky at first, but that was until I read the effin' manual (also good stuff on the wiki) I went to preferences and mapped shortcuts that were familiar to me, and i discovered yesterday I could work on a number of midi items for different midi channels, stack them on top of each other click "glue" and hey presto, I have a multi channel midi item, or I can send selected notes to different channels just by clicking Ctrl+f2 and changing note properties.
Now I can use this single track for controlling up to 16 parts of a sampler or Rewire device, there's a lot of power in one little midi track.

I thought I might have to use another daw for midi but have since found that Reaper has all the tools I need, I just didn't find them in the first place I looked.


Yes, we had a thread here recently, where someone (fetidus) created a midi-comparison chart including Reaper, Sonar and Cubase:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19606


the chart can be found here:

http://www.fetidus.com/DAWstuff/GiantMIDIcomparison.html


The thread is very revealing in that fetidus, when he started the chart thought Reaper couldn't do certain things midi-wise - then
we read through the chart and corrected him, explaining how it can be done in Reaper, so that he then updated his page - huge kudos to him for doing that b.t.w. - he did a great job.


Reaper's midi is far better than its reputation. Stuff like eXT won't bring much new to the table - quite the contrary actually.

And don't forget that you could always open the midi-items in an external editor, if need be.

norbury brook
04-12-2008, 06:30 AM
good point Jens, I agree the midi is better than people think, for me as a 'non' midi power user, I just miss multiple controller lanes and perhaps a colour visual of velocity like cubendo.My biggest issue though is keyboard/mouse consistency between the arrange page and midi editor.


MC

Sam C
04-12-2008, 07:03 AM
When we can automate the per-track FX button it will be another REAPER only COMPLETE solution in the fastest app going.



podium has per track fx automation.

it also has track and project templates that someone mentioned it didn't. it does. it will save chains of inserts fx in templates like most software.

it's track item editing is as good as i have seen.

just wanted to clear those up...........

Tallisman
04-12-2008, 08:12 AM
oh, and by the way:

http://www.zynewave.com/about.html and http://www.zynewave.com/files/PodiumDemo198.zip

http://reaper.fm/features.php and http://reaper.fm/files/2.x/reaper2201-install.exe

there is REALLY no way around it.
Comparing DAWs is like discussing politics at family reunions, or religion.

good luck with the curves!

.t

:o

jens
04-12-2008, 08:26 AM
it also has track and project templates that someone mentioned it didn't. it does. it will save chains of inserts fx in templates like most software.



oh, you are right - my bad...

PaulG
04-12-2008, 11:23 AM
But to also give something concrete to work with, I'll expound my personal needs.

Phase 1: I primarily come up with ideas using VI's and sort of sketch out ideas. Then I go in and clean up/re-record the MIDI and edit the crap out of it to make it sounds human.

Phase 2: Then I layer all my guitar, bass, and vocals on top. Lot's of editing later, I proceed.

Phase 3: I mix and mix and mix again until I'm happy with the results. Many times I'll have two or three songs by tonally similar artists on other tracks to solo up and reference.


Well,

Without sounding intentionally blunt, there really isn't a host that won't do what you need. Most of us have those three things as you do, too, so in giving you our own "personal impressions" it was just about which one fit better.

After all, all cars pretty much do the same thing, don't they? It's just about what fits your own way of working in the end.

Sorry if it's just not too easy to spell out. I think you've gotten a lot of good info from this thread. Now just download both and see which one clicks because it seems like you're trying to get answers about how YOU work from how WE work and you're getting frustrated because it's not about features.

Point blank - all hosts do the same thing just in different ways.

Lawrence
04-12-2008, 11:48 AM
Daws are like women... there's lots of them out there, many are very pretty, some look better in shorts than others but only a few will fit just right.

Find a daw and marry it. :D If it can really cook, you'll be happy. Unless it's cooking chinese and you like Italian.

Reaper (for me) is like that sexy girl around the corner that I had a one night stand with and just can't seem to forget.

Cubase is my wife. ;) I do cheat ...

timandmonica
04-12-2008, 12:51 PM
Daws are like women... there's lots of them out there, many are very pretty, some look better in shorts than others but only a few will fit just right.

Find a daw and marry it. :D It it can really cook, you'll be happy. Unless it's cooking chinese and you like Italian.

Reaper (for me) is like that sexy girl around the corner that I had a one night stand with and just can't seem to forget.

Cubase is my wife. ;) I do cheat ...

Out of all the responses I've received on this and Podium's forum, this one takes the cake! Not just cuz it made me laugh. You are undeniably right.

Thanks!

jamester
04-13-2008, 01:21 AM
Find a daw and marry it.

Cubase is my wife. I do cheat ...
As an unapologetic daw-polygamist, I had a go at Podium tonight. While I obviously could only get a basic handle of it in such a short amount of time, it was long enough to know I'd be uninstalling it. Familiarity and comfort are powerful things when it comes to workflow, and I could tell straight away it would not fit me. Maybe it's because I cut my teeth on Acid way back in the day, but Reaper was immediately intuitive. This is not a knock on Podium in any way; merely pointing out that it's workflow is markedly different than Reaper's, and may or not be "comfortable" to somebody based on their previous experiences (if any).

Of course, stick with any program long enough and it'll become second nature. I completely agree with Lawrence, find a daw and marry it. Since I'm not the cheatin' type, I made honest women out of both Reaper and Ableton Live. ;)

motormind
04-13-2008, 11:20 PM
What is it you want to do with midi that you know Reaper doesn't do already?

Groove quantizing.

jens
04-14-2008, 12:24 AM
Just curious, motormind: how can you know what the OP needs?

motormind
04-14-2008, 01:41 AM
Just curious, motormind: how can you know what the OP needs?

He is posting in a public forum, so he may expect responses from the public.

timandmonica
04-14-2008, 01:47 AM
Well, thanks everyone! Although I feel that part of my initial intent for posting was never addressed, I received enough information to steer me into the Reaper camp.

I tried both of them for a bit, and being a Pro Tools guy for many years in the past, it just clicked with me more than Podium and seems to provide the audio editing that I've been missing so much in Tracktion. Podium looks really cool and has a great spec sheet, but there's a little more to your interaction with a DAW that that. Podium seems very powerful and interesting if you can take the time to get familiar with it's unique way of working.

If I could break down some things that were important to me, I guess I'd say:

1. Reaper has a much faster development cycle, and thus is more likely to provide things I may need in the future.

2. It's interface is more traditional and familiar.

3. It's audio editing tools are more advanced that Podium's.

4. The scripting was a big deal to me. To be able to customize the DAW at all is valuable.

5. This user forum. There were WAY more responses here than on Podium's. This tells me there is overall more activity here, which will be needed in the future.

6. Mac compatible. I'll be heading down that road in a year or two, and it's nice to know the Mac version should be nice and stable by then.

7. Better plugin access. Again, customizing is cool (arbitrary custom folders and plugin names.)

8. More overall innovation. I can't remember all the things I've found already but I'm continually impressed with new things I'm discovering that are either unique to Reaper or at least very uncommon in the rest of the DAW world.

9. A more useful demo. Of course Reaper's is as useful as you can get, but Podium's is still generous as well. As a side note, there is no copy protection with Podium. He trusts his customers and he proves it.

10. What's a list like this if I can't make it "The Ten Reasons I Chose Reaper Over Podium." ???


Thanks again for all your help. I imagine I'll be popping my head in more often now!

jens
04-14-2008, 02:55 AM
He is posting in a public forum, so he may expect responses from the public.

no, he directly adressed timandmonica - which you aren't, or are you?

gregh
04-14-2008, 03:06 AM
no, he directly adressed timandmonica - which you aren't, or are you?

no, i'm timandmonica

Jason Brian Merrill
04-14-2008, 03:23 AM
no, i'm timandmonica

IM SPARTACUS

Sam C
04-14-2008, 05:33 AM
Well, thanks everyone! Although I feel that part of my initial intent for posting was never addressed, I received enough information to steer me into the Reaper camp.

I tried both of them for a bit, and being a Pro Tools guy for many years in the past, it just clicked with me more than Podium and seems to provide the audio editing that I've been missing so much in Tracktion. Podium looks really cool and has a great spec sheet, but there's a little more to your interaction with a DAW that that. Podium seems very powerful and interesting if you can take the time to get familiar with it's unique way of working.

If I could break down some things that were important to me, I guess I'd say:

1. Reaper has a much faster development cycle, and thus is more likely to provide things I may need in the future.

2. It's interface is more traditional and familiar.

3. It's audio editing tools are more advanced that Podium's.

4. The scripting was a big deal to me. To be able to customize the DAW at all is valuable.

5. This user forum. There were WAY more responses here than on Podium's. This tells me there is overall more activity here, which will be needed in the future.

6. Mac compatible. I'll be heading down that road in a year or two, and it's nice to know the Mac version should be nice and stable by then.

7. Better plugin access. Again, customizing is cool (arbitrary custom folders and plugin names.)

8. More overall innovation. I can't remember all the things I've found already but I'm continually impressed with new things I'm discovering that are either unique to Reaper or at least very uncommon in the rest of the DAW world.

9. A more useful demo. Of course Reaper's is as useful as you can get, but Podium's is still generous as well. As a side note, there is no copy protection with Podium. He trusts his customers and he proves it.

10. What's a list like this if I can't make it "The Ten Reasons I Chose Reaper Over Podium." ???


Thanks again for all your help. I imagine I'll be popping my head in more often now!


i think you are right on each one of the 10!

too bad, we could have used a little more activity in the podium forum ;)

motormind
04-14-2008, 10:59 AM
no, he directly adressed timandmonica - which you aren't, or are you?

And how is that relevant? He didn't put it in a private message.

Anyway, groove quantizing is still a very useful feature missing in Reaper.

count savage
04-14-2008, 05:01 PM
Just want to add, I've been in the Podium vs. Reaper mode for quite a while, including a number of email conversations with Frits. However, despite spending time with it I still find the intial tracking as counter intuitive, which holds me back. I find Reaper pretty easy to use and it seems to work really well with my set up. I want to add that I own about 10 upgrades of Sonar/Cakewalk Pro Audio, as well as Cubase LE, Adobe Audition, Tracktion, and one other one I can't remember. I think that Reaper is easier and more intuitive than Sonar, which I won't upgrade anymore, offers a lot more features than Cubase LE, though I found Cubase quite easy and very much like working in an analog studio, my roots. So, I would vote for Reaper, though I'm not counting Podium out. It has the most beautiful and pleasing user GUI in the business and it has always worked, meaning it's incredibly stable. If I understood it and felt comfortable going right to work, I'd go with it, because I'm primarily recording audio. But it's just not as easy as Reaper. Sorry, Frits.

manning1
04-14-2008, 06:26 PM
re gui's.
mebe i'm an old doofus head.
but i'm not liking some of the user displays these days.
for example i looked at fruity once.
didnt do it for me. traktion....same, just felt uncomfortable.
not things i can easily explain.
looked at podium couple of times after seeing posts bout it.
once again screens didnt feel comfortable for me.
mebe its just personal preference.
but i like simple displays.
just could not get comfy with logic the few times i tried it.
n the tools in it etc.
a lot of devs seem to be into these "dark themes" these days.
but i dont wanna feel i'm in a myst game.

mebe its cos i'm so used to reapers display , but from get go it just seemed comfy to me.
looked at samp many times, cos for a long time i had its junior
called music studio. but things like vip's etc n haveing to remember various things while tracking i found distracting.
always had lots of respect for saw, cos i once did asm coding yonks ago, n i liked its small footprint at the time.
but pricing n the display put me off.
cubase i found difficult to learn for some reason.
rather liked the mixer at the time also samps mixer i seem to remember.
audition, always had respect for due to its forensic audio tools.
but bugged me on limited midi (now implemented i understand).
as well it irked me to flip tween multitrak and waveform view at the time.
sometimes i was put off a daw by lack of a demo, or dongle
implementation. many people years back urged me to go pro tools
for example. but i never could find an in depth list of features. which i found frustrating.
if i'm to look at a product i expect a detailed list of midi and audio features. a friend was looking at pro tools awhile back n i was helping him cos he felt he wanted to be "big boys compatible". (yeh i know !!). but still after all these years all i could find were overviews. no meaty feature list.

in summary i strive to keep an open mind, but reaper constantly performs for me. and just works the way i want.
difficult to explain.

mr_es335
03-06-2009, 10:30 AM
Hello,

I have been testing both Reaper and Podium for a few weeks now. I am definitely a MIDI user and find Reaper very weak in this department. To do some of the things that Cubase SX does simply requires a lot of extra work in Reaper. And without programming skills, many of the very friendly features of MIDI handling that Cubase SX provides and simply not available in Reaper.

Then I tried Podium. Granted the previous manual was "poor to none" - it has been recently updated - and therefore much easier to follow. What really surprised me though was how easy it was to get my XV-5080 working with Podium. I have personally created a fairly extensive patch map for this device (which I can make available it any one would like it), imported the raw text file it into Podium and "Voila"! - there it was. And the use of accessing the various patches available in the Inspector (very similar to Cubase) is just great! This I have yet been able to do easily in Reaper. I have recently modified the "Simple Midi Mixer" and the "MIDI_BANK_and_PATCH_SELECT" to obtain limited functionality for external hardware, but this is still a long way from the already implemented MIDI capabilities found in Podium.

My question to the Reaper developers is "Why not make it this easy?" Other apps, including Podium do it - why not Reaper? Overall I really like Reaper. It provides a great deal of end-user flexibility - but the MIDI aspects of the app are seriously wanting. Reading the features list regarding reaper's MIDI handling - this, in my estimation, is very ambiguous to say the least. In fact, the ads for Reaper should really state that it is predominantly an audio-based application with very limited MIDI integration (which should be clearly stated, however this should be worded).

Also, the cost factors need to be considered. Granted, Reaper does offer the app at $50.00 for a non-commercial license - but if any of us are honest, the cost should really be $225.00 for the commercial license. This makes Reaper not as inexpensive as apps like Podium, energXT, MU.LAB, Temper and others. If, as one noted, that I could use the MIDI features of Temper along with the audio functionality of Reaper, then this only adds to cost of the app. One might just as well stay with the h8gher-end apps like Cubase or Sonar.

I hope that the Reaper developers will consider what others have done and integrate this into the next release of Reaper. If Reaper as it presently stands is strong on the audio aspects of development, why not do the same for MIDI - and natively - not having to exhort to using 3rd part apps to do this.

Sincerely,

mr_es335

tweed
03-06-2009, 12:33 PM
Making it 'easy' generally requires decisions to me made for the user, as in hardwired code. Or maybe i just woke up, and could have said that better, elaborated more, or....

well, I spend about 10 times longer on most things before I even start, or make a decision as to HOW to proceed. generally.

I chose REAPER over all others, and in all areas.

best wishes too .... all!

DuX
03-06-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm definitely considering purchasing Podium, because it just gives me an impression of a more stable and solid environment than Reaper or EnergyXT [especially]. Now that it's only 50$... the only thing that bothers me is that it's demo is pretty obtrusive. I would like to test it without any obstructions like those pop-up messages and volume going up/down...

Since v2 Podium has become much easier to work with. You should all try the demo as the installation and deinstallation is quite Windows friendly :).

Although, with pure audio tracks and recording, Reaper is quite capable and simple to work with, I must admit that. And the mixer/routing is just fabulous , although it can become a bit too complicated when you work with many tracks and sends...

The whole impression of Reaper, when you work with it, IMO is that it just "lacks something", more "polish" or "definition" if you like, when you compare it to Podium. Also, Podium is top-notch stable and very mature app.

Cheers!

bladerunner
03-06-2009, 02:53 PM
podium is indeed a very stable app. none more stable i would say. i have been using it more and more lately not just for midi but for audio too. the fact that it has drawable waveform editing is the icing on the cake. got a glitch? just draw it out... would be awesome if reaper implemented this at some point

tweed
03-07-2009, 01:25 AM
http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1877


posts 1, 3 and 5 down the page and stuff up top as well.

Check the date and the dev himself saying he'd pretty much done all he could to the audio engine's efficiency.
yep. uhhhh...


For me, it's all about the code. Schmancy Graphics make me ill. Really.

For example, I'll take a bare-ish web page with brilliant (or simply know-able!) CSS and Jquery any day over a big fat CMS with tons of 'hey, can't change that easily' pix.

I feel I can get close to the core and know what's happening without the candy. Just gets in the way. And for the software writer(s) as well I think.


MY opinion. Best wishes.

And now to dream of what will become.

aMUSEd
03-07-2009, 03:00 AM
Podium can look really gorgeous:

http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1862

and what I love about it is the automation editing - I really hope that Reaper will one day have proper beziers like Podium (with handles etc). It's so easy t simplify curves too (though I also love Reaper's new slider for simplifying). However at the moment Podium's automation recording for realtime instrument/effect tweaks is badly thought through and needs some serious improvements to get it to the point of being usable for me. On the other hand I do prefer Podium's approach to recording automation in that you don't have to select different modes before doing it - click record and it records everything you play (that's how it should be) - it's a good workflow, the implementation is just a bit broken though at the moment so my experience there is bittersweet

Reaper has recently implemented things like inline midi and automation lanes that keep me interested but I have to say Podium performs much better on my system at the moment - less glitchy (non at all actually) and some instruments I have problems with in Reaper (like my Ti) work so well in Podium. So I'm sort of having a foot in both camps (and also have my eye on Orion if they could only get over the strict pattern based stuff and introduce some more flexibility - looks like v8 might be a big step forwards)