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View Full Version : 2.4 pre7 Bug -Jog/Scrub reversed


Bevosss
07-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Can someone confirm this, it is definitely backwards here.

This seems to be working in reverse on my system now (ie now I hold ctrl for scrub, last update I held ctrl for jog). Unchecked it's exactly the opposite...so the default is reversed also here.



http://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/49877/10867174013-REAPER-Preferences.png

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 01:09 AM
can't confirm this.


just to be sure:

scrub: mouse cursor gets hidden
jog: mousecursor doesn't get hidden

right?

Bevosss
07-07-2008, 01:40 AM
can't confirm this.


just to be sure:

scrub: mouse cursor gets hidden
jog: mousecursor doesn't get hidden

right?

Ahh thanks for that!

...ok, the cursor is correct, and zoomed out all works ok.

Zoomed right in on a single click sample of Art's, the behaviour changes (the cursor is still correct though)...if I try to scrub, it takes off...if I jog, it follows slowly like scrub.

Reinstalling Pre5 reverts to normal behaviour...back again to Pre-7, weird zoom behaviour returns.

I'll test this on another machine, but try it zoomed right in.

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 02:09 AM
Mmh, I'm extremely confused now by these things I guess. I think for me the cursor acceleration actually is bad in scrub-mode. The cursor is too slow/late if I throw my mouse to the left/right. The "Controller sesitivity" setting doesn't help in this case.


Btw: I have mouse-acceleration disabled in Windows (and I won't enable it)! Maybe we all have this set up differently ...

Bevosss
07-07-2008, 03:06 AM
Could be...the only way I can loop-scrub a single-sample click when zoomed in is to use jog, in scrub the cursor takes off too fast and it plays too fast.

In jog mode though, it works great zoomed in (for scrub!). I get close to one sample past the click and it starts sounding...extremely accurate!

I hope pre-8 has a fix for it. :D

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 03:15 AM
Could be...the only way I can loop-scrub a single-sample click when zoomed in is to use jog, in scrub the cursor takes off too fast and it plays too fast.

I agree. When zoomed in very high, Looped-mode movement is too fast!

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 03:59 AM
Something's definitely changed for the worse with regard to the 'feel' of the scrub in pre7. In pre6 the speed felt good at various zoom levels to me, and you had nice control with the mouse. In pre7 the scrub feels totally untamable!

I could see how jog and scrub could now be confused as, until now, job felt less useful to me but in this release it's the jog that's actually more accurate - I can't get any control with the scrub. Back to pre6 please!! :)

Ben

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 04:06 AM
Something's definitely changed for the worse with regard to the 'feel' of the scrub in pre7. In pre6 the speed felt good at various zoom levels to me, and you had nice control with the mouse.

Yeah, this pre7 behaviour was introduced here http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=203448&postcount=32 I think.


I told Justin, that it was better in pre6:

the mouse is TOO slow now in scrub-mode when zoomed in to detail on a waveform! not usable anymore IMO!

Bevosss
07-07-2008, 04:15 AM
And my scrub is way too fast zoomed in...

Pre-6 definitely works better for me .

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:46 AM
Pre6 forever :D

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 04:48 AM
And my scrub is way too fast zoomed in

are you talking about "scrub" or "looped-segment" mode? you really should name them corretly to don't confuse justin!


here scrub is painful slow when zoomed in. looped-segment mode is too fast.

Bevosss
07-07-2008, 05:01 AM
are you talking about "scrub" or "looped-segment" mode? you really should name them corretly to don't confuse justin!


here scrub is painful slow when zoomed in. looped-segment mode is too fast.

Jog, and Jog-(Looped Segment), are both a nice slow speed here when zoomed right in to sample level, in pre7. This is how scrub acts in Pre6.

Scrub and Scrub-(Looped Segment) just takes off here in Pre7, I can't focus on the waveform. Totally unusable...

I guess that's different for you, but that's exactly what I'm getting...I've checked it many times zoomed in.

Zoomed out seems to be working fine though.

Art Evans
07-07-2008, 07:46 AM
Seems to work nicely at all zoom levels here with all three modes.

I wonder whether any of this relates to your mouse speed set in the mouse driver? Would that explain why different people are having different experiences?

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 07:48 AM
I wonder whether any of this relates to your mouse speed set in the mouse driver? Would that explain why different people are having different experiences?

that's what i thought too!

1. mouse speed setting
2. mouse acceleration setting (which i never have enabled)

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 10:34 AM
I wonder whether any of this relates to your mouse speed set in the mouse driver? Would that explain why different people are having different experiences?

I'm not sure, because bunch of us experienced much 'better' scrubbing behaviour in pre6, and our settings remained the same when trying pre7. Seems to me that changes were made for the worse in pre7.

airon
07-07-2008, 11:00 AM
This behavior exhibits one important characteristic.

Inertia.

I was surprised by how strong it is in this build (pre7 and rc0), and at first I thought, too much. On the plus-side the sound is smooth, it responds in constant nature, i.e. your mouse cursor movement means an equal amount of acceleration or deceleration, and herein lies a problem as well.

When you scrub, you wish to change direction more quickly than accelerating, so I suggest to have the deceleration be more sensitive when directional change happens for more than at least "x milliseconds". The poll rate for mice is 125 Hz by default(8ms), for mine it's 500 Hz(2ms).

The double-click on a mouse button is of a similar nature, but here it'll just be a check to see if the user really wants to go the opposite way with the scrub.

Also the way it is now, the scrub has inertia and acts like a jog.

The scrub has to stop when the user stops his motion. I suggest a similar configurable value for a check that it is indeed the users intention.

Scrub's a bitch, ain't it.

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 11:54 AM
Also the way it is now, the scrub has inertia

yep. if you thow the mouse to the left/right you have to move it back a bit to get scrub stopped, otherwise it keeps playing and playing. that's strange for me.

the word inertia descibes it best. it actually feels inertial too much. in scrub+looped mode it's much much better.



just do the following:

scrub with looped mode and keep the mouse moving a bit -> then release (or press) the modifier for looped mode => cursor is flying away :)


Jog, and Jog-(Looped Segment), are both a nice slow speed here when zoomed right in to sample level, in pre7. This is how scrub acts in Pre6.

Scrub and Scrub-(Looped Segment) just takes off here in Pre7, I can't focus on the waveform. Totally unusable...

i was confused a bit i think. i thought looped-mode is an own independent mode. know i see we can combine them.

in 2.4rc0,

- jog alone is fine for me
- jog+looped is fine for me
- scrub alone is NOT fine for me (as written above - strange inertia -> maybe that's how it has to be?)
- scrub+looped mode is fine again

Justin
07-07-2008, 12:01 PM
hmm rc0's inertia should be very similar to pre6s...

Dstruct
07-07-2008, 12:11 PM
hmm rc0's inertia should be very similar to pre6s...

i don't really remember how it was in pre6. maybe i'm totally confused now :)

what's the exact difference between scrub and jug? scrub is the mode where you "kick" the cursor and then have to stop it with a "back"-movement of the mouse? then it's ok i think ..

airon
07-07-2008, 03:48 PM
The scrub is playhead movement caused by mouse motion. The inertia should facilitate smooth motion, but not make the users work very hard to reverse the direction.

The emulation of reel-to-reel tape is part of the goal here. It facilitates the listening of material as different speeds, and the positioning of the playhead based on audio, not on graphics.

The inertia of the current scrub turns it in to a jog , which is simply converting mouse motion in to some playhead acceleration/deceleration. Scrub though is meant to give you control about how far the playhead moves and in what direction in the most direct manner. Thus direction changes should be as quick as is technically possible, but the still keeping a smooth resulting playhead motion based on the inevitably less smooth mouse motion.

In the Protools video I posted you can hear the incredible speed at which I threw the playhead back and forth, whilst still retaining relative stability in sub-1xspeed scrubbing, which is important in locating cues with as little wobble in the sound as possible.

rc0 has great sound, but makes the user work too hard. Directional change needs to be VERY easy. It is pretty rare that the user accidentally moves the mouse in the wrong direction, and it's only likely to happen at exceptionally low mouse speeds anyway.

The PT scrubber is somewhat more successful there, though of course it can only handle one track at a time (or two channels of audio on two tracks). That hasn't been as big a problem as I thought when I first used it though. In fact I never looked back.

Perhaps the scrubber of Reaper just needs more intelligence added on top of what it already has.

"Respond to directional change VERY fast"

"Smooth out erratic mouse motion in one direction to prevent wobbly sound at all speeds"
This could work by only starting to smooth mouse motion after at least 100 milliseconds or more. By then it's unlikely to be only a twitch of the user but real scrub motion.

"Stop the cursor very fast when no mouse motion is detected"
The cursor has to end up where I stop the mouse. A detection period with backtracking perhaps ?


"Have a sensitivity setting for mouse motion"
Wafting the mouse cursor across the screen is something completely different from scrubbing. It used to be that the jog/scrub wheel on old workstations like Augan and Fairlight were used for moving the cursor around for editing, but no more. The mouse scrub needs to be as practical as can be, not a 100% emulation. Nobody smoothed out the jog/scrub wheel motion after all. The weight of the wheel did that for you.

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:05 PM
I totally agree airon and was going to post something very similar.

What is frustrating is that scrub did IMO have the genuine feel of 'rocking the reels' in pre6 and you could really find an edit point with it. Now it feels more like varispeed or jog as you say :(

Inertia is definitely one of the problems - the scrub cursor is way too slow at stopping.

Ben

Justin
07-07-2008, 04:27 PM
ah yeah there was a bug in it, sorry.. I got it back to pre6 behavior, but then tried another model that I think I like more.. uploading rc1 with this now.. :)

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:42 PM
Haha - I thought I must be going mad! :D

That's great news Justin. Will try RC1 v.soon.

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:46 PM
Justin - do you have access to a Contour Shuttle Pro? http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/

A lot of us here have one of these and it would be great if we could map the wheel(s) to job/shuttle. As far as I understand it it's just a matter of mapping a bunch of shortcuts that control the scrub speed. Are you going planning on scrub speed controllable via shortcuts? Not sure if we'd be able to get it very accurate, but would be better than nothing!

Thanks

Ben

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:49 PM
ah yeah there was a bug in it, sorry.. I got it back to pre6 behavior, but then tried another model that I think I like more.. uploading rc1 with this now.. :)

Just tried this - this seems a major improvement and, yep, back to that feeling I had with pre6. Nice one!

Ben

Edit: I know you said you've tweaked, but for me it's still not quite as good as the pre6 behaviour as sometimes, with just a tiny bit more mouse force than you intend, the cursor and scrub rate seem to suddenly speed up... and you lose your place.

Ben Zero
07-07-2008, 04:55 PM
Final post of the evening...

Justin - if you really wanted to go nuts with the scrub concept, as I think you've got it sounding and feeling really great now...

In SADiE (classic DAW from way back!) you could have scrub enabled when you dragged item edges. So without needing to look you could hear where you wanted to drag to the edge to - really quick and easy. And pretty damn cool too.

I'm wondering if/how possible it would be for you to implement this? I guess it'd be an option (or eventually a toolbar button?) to "enable scrub while dragging item edges" or available via a modifier. Just a thought anyway :D

Ben

Art Evans
07-07-2008, 06:51 PM
Interesting idea (scrub edges) - I think in the extensions there's something like 'move item edge to cursor' which is half way there, perhaps.