BUG? Reset CC on stop/play [Archive] - Cockos Incorporated Forums

sqgl

02-03-2012, 08:43 PM

There is an option in Preferences | Audio | Midi Devices
whereby "On stop/play" you can tick a box to "reset CC" (Continuous Controller).

I unticked this box but still have a reset MIDI controller message generated at the start of every loop. Considering SPP sends a stop & start each loop iteration, this may be the above option not working. I have created a video illustrating the bug and reported it.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

Can someone please reproduce this and tick the box in that thread?

sqgl

02-11-2012, 09:32 AM

I've just had the same thing happen with non reset values. See the thread I mentioned.

EDIT - "tracker issue" actually, not "thread". Please limit any discussion there.

dan_e10

02-13-2012, 01:28 PM

I am seeing the same or similar behavior (in 4.151). When playing a looped midi track, if I use a controller to send CC's, the CC I sent on the current loop will sometimes be reset to 0 on the start of the next loop. It does not occur every time though.
Dan

dan_e10

02-14-2012, 07:08 AM

It looks like this was supposed to be fixed in 4.11 but I'm still seeing it in 4.151:

v4.11 - November 12 2011
+ [4.111 - November 13 2011] OSX64/Win64: stability fix
+ MIDI: fixed sending of excess pitch/note/cc resets on loop

Dan

sqgl

03-02-2012, 07:39 AM

This came up in another thread called Does reaper send all notes off when relocating the play cursor in a loop? (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=915653#post915653) where I posted the following animated GIF.

http://jo.koan.net/pix/reaper_bug_reset_cc.gif

A developer, responded, the gist of which is reproduced below. This is the place for discussion rather than me further hijacking that other thread (or adding confusion to the bug tracker post).

Confirming that Reaper resets CC when a timeline loop repeats, even if "Reset CC on stop/play" is disabled in the prefs.

To be fair it should be mentioned that a loop repeat is not stop/play. Actually I have a hunch this is planned behavior and not a bug although it's outcome is understandably not good in some situations (similar to the reset messages at stop/play themselves which would need a rethink as well and also the item based search-back for the last sent CC which totally needs to work track-wide across items).

I suppose it would be wise to open this again as a feature request (for an option to disable the loop CC reset altogether and maybe for a way to define our own reset values).

In addition to my bug tracker post? Won't others consider that to be a double posting?

I am trying to think of situations where this behavior is annoying to back up the urgency of such a request. It doesn't seem to bother many people (myself I didn't even notice it up to now).

One situation is when you intend to play an instrument live (or record) over a loop of pre-recorded CC values if the pre-recorded item starts later than the left loop edge or has no CC event to fall back to at it's start.
Are there more situations?
"Fall back to"? Sometimes it actually uses the last known value in the loop and inserts it at the start of the loop (ie not an actual reset). This new "initial" value sometimes gets "sticky" ie you cannot delete it and is described in the bug tracker report (http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924) mentioned earlier.

Are there more situations?
Playing an instrument through delay and you change the feedback via a continuous controller. Every loop restart would set feedback to zero.

gofer

03-02-2012, 08:18 AM

xgmode

03-02-2012, 11:47 AM

Also have this problem, using latest version of Reaper.

chucky5p

03-02-2012, 07:35 PM

The only thing I can develop is bad habits ;). I'm totally no dev, sqgl, just a mere user blessed with some moderation keys here in the forum.

With "fall back to" I meant that if you have a CC event at a point before or at the loop start time Reaper will reset to that value.

Like this situation in the upper pic:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/goferpics/Reset_CC_on_Loop_Repeat.png

The lower pic shows a situation I personally hate about Reaper's MIDI. It doesn't trace back across items. I reckon it's sort of a shameless plug here, but I just can't resist to mention it wherever it somehow fits :D

Trying to recreate the sticky reset values, but don't yet succeed.

Agree fully with you that Reaper's MIDI should trace back across items. That's something any sequencer/DAW should do in 2012. On my (very) old ATARI sequencer, they called the option "Chase Controllers" and you could choose which controller to chase. It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence... in 1990 ;)

http://i.imgur.com/FuCMp.png

dan_e10

03-06-2012, 11:30 AM

I'm glad this is getting noticed by others. I'll give an example where this behavior is annoying and causing headaches for me. Using a VSTi, I've midi-learned many of the synths parameters to the knobs and faders on my midi controller (ADSR, filter cutoff, resonance, envelope amount, etc.). Sometimes it's just easier to dial in a patch using knobs and faders than it is to do it with a mouse. Anyway, I'll set up a midi riff and set loop points to let it repeat indefinitely when playing. Then I'll go to work adjusting the synth parameters with the controller to get things sounding just right. However, sometimes (not every loop) the last adjusted parameter will jump to 0. If filter cutoff jumps to 0, usually the sound goes away. I haven't noticed the jumping to a random value behavior, but if it is jumping back to the last set value I probably am not noticing. A work around is to create a midi clip with looping checked and drag it out for many measures so that play never needs to repeat. Still, when I tried this I think one or some of the CC's still reset even though I have the option to reset CC's on start/stop disabled. I'll have to check that.
Dan

ball2000

03-14-2012, 04:11 AM

When I have midi items with vol and exp cc in them
The Vol and exp CC's change to zero or maximum unpredictably when the item ends or loops or I back up to the beginning. I turned off the "reset cc on stop/play" to no effect

Both my OSX and WinXP installs have always done this to me - I keep telling myself NOT to enter ANY VOL or EXP cc data EVER - pretty inconvenient!

It's messing up my mix!

^^ after reading the above ^^

My expectation is that when the play head is moved to a point in time, Reaper should set the cc's to the value they would be if it had arrived there during normal play. Or leave them the hell alone! And it should do this in every and all situations unless I tell it different!

It's messing up my mix!

ball2000

03-14-2012, 04:57 PM

( Psst! gluing all midi items together is a workaround! But don't tell Cockos, I still want them to fix it! )

EvilDragon

03-14-2012, 05:03 PM

It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence... in 1990 ;)

http://i.imgur.com/FuCMp.png

In 1990! WAKE UP CALL to Reaper devs!!!

sqgl

03-15-2012, 12:00 AM

( Psst! gluing all midi items together is a workaround! But don't tell Cockos, I still want them to fix it! )
That does not help the situation shown in my earlier post's animated GIF (http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=916350&postcount=5).

chucky5p

03-15-2012, 04:03 AM

In 1990! WAKE UP CALL to Reaper devs!!!

Yep, that was in 1990. FWIW, the sequencer's name was Master Track Pro. Beside having a very good "chase controller" option, it had many other features that are still not available in Reaper, such as "quantize while recording", a sysEx librarian, etc. It's been so long that I don't recall exactly why I chose this sequencer over its competitors back then (Cubase and Notator were also available for the Atari ST). For those who are curious about this program, check out this link: (you can also download the program, it's now freeware and works fine on a PC with an Atari emulator)

http://tamw.atari-users.net/mtpro.htm

Note: the screen cap I posted in my previous post is from the Windows version that came out in 2003 (it was easier to capture) but the 1990 Atari ST version had the exact same "Chase Controller" option.

chrisharbin

03-15-2012, 10:07 AM

I thought it was me

ball2000

03-16-2012, 06:24 AM

That does not help the situation shown in my earlier post's animated GIF (http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=916350&postcount=5).
oh right, that's annoying!

What you could try is creating empty items before and after the loop and gluing them so your loop never crosses item bounds, wouldn't that fix it?

amrodan

04-05-2012, 09:14 AM

This is really making me crazy. I decided to try Studio One because of this and it works perfect for midi and automation. Unfortunately it is missing stuff like track templates and editing modifiers for midi editing.

So I'm stuck with re-entering all of my tracks by hand every time in studio one and being able to record, or having my Synth reset constantly in reaper.

mikeroephonics

04-05-2012, 11:51 AM

Agree fully with you that
Reaper's MIDI should trace back across items.
That's something any sequencer/DAW should do
in 2012. On my (very) old ATARI sequencer,
they called the option "Chase Controllers"
and you could choose which controller to chase.
It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence...
in 1990 ;)///

+1 to this. Track Media Item count should not
affect this. It should always chase the last
value on the Track, regardless of what Media
Item that value is in.

chrisharbin

04-05-2012, 10:49 PM

Ok, this has got me all confused now.

My controller is dropping messages in (117, 118, some others) when I'm recording. Is this what we are talking about? It's not the same as "midi learning/actions" where you set up stop, loop, record, etc. But those cc's are coming through.

So before I bother with anything further, this is what we are talking about? I thought I knew what this thread was about but now I just feel lost.

G-Sun

04-05-2012, 11:53 PM

With "fall back to" I meant that if you have a CC event at a point before or at the loop start time Reaper will reset to that value.
+1 for fall back to across items

sqgl

04-06-2012, 07:46 AM

My controller is dropping messages in (117, 118, some others) when I'm recording. Is this what we are talking about?

This thread is about Reaper adding (not dropping) messages. You may need to start a new thread to sort it out.

chopstickkk

04-17-2012, 05:04 AM

Voted able to reproduce.

I've been getting the same behaviour here too. =(

It happens for me even though I've not recorded any CC changes, only tweaked knobs on a controller.

Developers - This is RUINING REAPER ENTIRELY for a small number of people.

Surely that is as important as a small issue that is causing minor grievance to a great number of people.

chopstickkk

04-17-2012, 07:46 AM

Okay. Some, I think, new information.

I don't reckon it is tied in with just recorded CC data. I don't use any recorded CC data and I can reproduce what looks like the same bug.

Using a MIDI controller to control a VST parameters via CC (not via Reaper MIDI learn) I can recreate this bug thusly...

-Create a track and add a VST that has parameters that respond to CC
-Create an item with one midi note
-Set up a loop and press play
-Send CC data from MIDI controller to move parameter on VST making sure to move the controller when the playhead passes the note-on and the note-off!
-Jumping value occurs now on every end/beginning of loop
-Restart program to fix

Can anybody else confirm this?

chopstickkk

04-17-2012, 10:40 AM

I've made a video of the behaviour here...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/CCLoopingBug.swf

Here's a very simple project that adheres to the bug reproduction steps in the previous post. It uses ReaMidiControl if you have a MIDI controller that sends CC7 give it a try.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/CCLoopingBugClean.RPP

WFX

04-22-2012, 10:49 PM

I can confirm this is still present in reaper 4.21. It basically makes CC jamming with my controller useless. Please please please fix this one!!

Thanks Cockos

ivansc

04-23-2012, 03:29 AM

skimmed the thread havent come across this so far but I take it there IS a bug report in already?

chopstickkk

04-23-2012, 05:09 AM

skimmed the thread havent come across this so far but I take it there IS a bug report in already?

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

Vote reproducible if you can.

Cosmic

04-23-2012, 08:51 AM

I'm getting a hopping fader with my x session pro too.

Rather annoying

Sambo Rouge

04-23-2012, 08:56 AM

Hey Gazza,

What are you doing out of your coffin in daylight?

chopstickkk

04-30-2012, 01:43 PM

Bumpgif

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/CCLoopingBug.gif

xgmode

07-12-2012, 01:08 PM

Bump..

Is this actually going to get fixed?
Why is there no reply from a dev confirming this, or telling us when they are able to take a look and fix it.
Am starting to think I bought the wrong host to replace Cubase for MIDI, cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.

I have a EMU Xboard49 controlling hardware- and softwaresynthesizers, i have deselected reset CC at the MIDI preference screen but am getting so fed up with CC reset after using a knob on the keyboard. Why.. why...why are we experiencing this??? ..Come on..

Cheers.

chopstickkk

07-13-2012, 02:20 PM

...for MIDI, cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.

+1. Unfortunately =(

xgmode

07-13-2012, 07:19 PM

Sorry for the harsh tone earlier, it would mean a lot to us if this can be fixed.

Viente

07-13-2012, 07:34 PM

cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.

Cmoon, i guess you didn't face Ableton or Logic support... Where else on earth the devs are talking to users on forums?

ivansc

07-14-2012, 03:09 AM

Yeah but fixing always beats talking to us about.

Not that the devs are generally lax in that area, but there are a lot of long term irritants like this still hanging around since who knows when.

Maybe it is another one of those that would take a disproportionately large amount of coding and dev time to fix.... like many of the other MIDI requests, apparently.

EvilDragon

07-14-2012, 04:42 AM

Maybe it is another one of those that would take a disproportionately large amount of coding and dev time to fix.... like many of the other MIDI requests, apparently.

I'm pretty sure it isn't.

if loopEnd_reached then dontSendCCresetForCryingOutLoud

:)

chopstickkk

07-26-2012, 03:35 AM

Animabump...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/cc-not-midi-learn.gif

Just to re-interate this happens only for MIDI CC not for Reaper MIDI learned parameters.

i.e. the volume on the V-Station responds to MIDI CC #7 directly but the threshold on the compressor was MIDI Learned.

deailes

05-26-2013, 05:54 AM

I can replicate this very easily .

Using Maschine controller and a midi keyboard controller.

After moving a vst parameter either using the midi contoller the midi cc is resetting.I do not understand why it does it sometimes but not all the time.

THanks chopstikkk though. I had not realised that you could work round it by using reaper midi learn... Its a pain in the ass though as i have several templates set up that i use on maschine to saved me having to go in and learn everything.

chopstickkk

05-26-2013, 12:31 PM

...Its a pain in the ass...

Suuuuure is.

deailes don't forget to vote on this page if you haven't already...

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

I don't think it'll make much difference.

Like most MIDI users I've moved to a different software. REAPER is a glorified VST rack for me now.

Sigh...

gusty7

02-16-2015, 03:49 PM

I am reading all this in disbelief. I fetched up here looking for a solution to a silly bit of software beaviour: CC values being set to unrequired values in various Stop, Loop and Pause scenarios.

That this is still an issue after >2 years and so many versions is amazing. Don't devs read any of this?

This is a game changer. After a couple of years getting into Reaper after >20 years of Cubase, I have lost 90% of my belief in the product.

If I had this problem in a mixing desk, I would bin it.

Anyone know of a DAW that can manage MIDI properly? Please don't tell me Cubase!

tamtam

04-29-2015, 07:55 PM

+1

ANY DAW in the world can handle MIDI better than Reaper. It's so dilettante and ignorant that the devs do not fix such basics

Makes me angry

reapercurious

04-30-2015, 03:45 PM

Banned

04-30-2015, 06:18 PM

All that needs to happen is for you to describe the problem that you have, and the developers can fix it. These guys are no dummies. If you can't describe the problem exactly so it is reproducible, then how can the coders tweak the code and fix it? It's really that simple.
Unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. I have reported similar issues quite a long time ago (see All-notes-off MIDI command sent regardless of preference (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=1077990)), the devs are obviously aware of them (since Justin responded to the bug report), but we're still waiting for a fix.

reapercurious

05-02-2015, 06:00 AM

Unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. I have reported similar issues quite a long time ago (see All-notes-off MIDI command sent regardless of preference (http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=1077990)), the devs are obviously aware of them (since Justin responded to the bug report), but we're still waiting for a fix.

I see your point, but to be fair I'm sure Justin knows how to fix it. I guess there is a queue of things to do that's all. TBH, I would rather have loads of new features than fix the old nagging problems. Some problems are so old that they will just get phased out when everybody starts using Midi 3.0 I guess.

whiteaxxxe

05-02-2015, 06:11 AM

... Midi 3.0 ...

and that should be what? no findings on the internet for this. and how ould a new standard (backwards-compatile of course) fix issues in the software that implements it?

sorry, but that is blowing hot air that leads to nothing ...

Dstruct

05-02-2015, 07:28 AM

and that should be what? no findings on the internet for this. and how ould a new standard (backwards-compatile of course) fix issues in the software that implements it?

sorry, but that is blowing hot air that leads to nothing ...

"HD-MIDI"

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI#The_future_of_MIDI

ELP

05-02-2015, 08:04 AM

Yes of course the new protocol maybe 2045: :D
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/hd.php

but that thing has really nothing to do
that REAPERs chase routine is wrong.
REAPER never stop to chase for an event, if there is already one at exact the play/edit cursor position..

The result is:
if there is one event at the loop or playback start position; REAPER send double messages at the same time.
The wrong chase event before and the correct event at the play/edit start position.

And for REAPER all used events has a value of 0 at timeline start.
So it also can result in an: for example loop/play start 2.0.00; Portamento Event at 2.0.00
1: B0 05 00 [CC5 Portamento MSB] chan 1 val 0
2: B0 05 6A [CC5 Portamento MSB] chan 1 val 106

Value of 0 and a value of 106 at the same time for the same event... ;)

Or maybe one chased value before 2.0.00 or whatever (if there is one)
example Porta ch1 at 1.1.00 with a value of 78 and the correct value at the same time.
example play Position 2.0.00
1: B0 05 4E [CC5 Portamento MSB] chan 1 val 78
2: B0 05 61 [CC5 Portamento MSB] chan 1 val 97

And double messages for the same event can be a problem and is of course a bug.....
that should be normally easy to fix. :rolleyes:

gofer

05-02-2015, 08:30 AM

HD MIDI is the HalfLife3 of the DAW world :D
Even if it surprisingly came into existence within our or our grandchildren's lifespan, HD MIDI would not magically "phase out" any of Reaper's reset spam issues. Rather gives room for even more of them.

Mink99

05-02-2015, 09:08 AM

This bug is known for years, in fact it is one of the oldest reaper bugs...

Mink99

05-02-2015, 09:16 AM

Banned

05-02-2015, 09:37 AM

TBH, I would rather have loads of new features than fix the old nagging problems.
I couldn't disagree more.
Some problems are so old that they will just get phased out when everybody starts using Midi 3.0 I guess.
You sound quite naive about how standards work. In a world where everybody speaks the same language, uses Linux and Dvorak keyboards, sure, I could wait for MIDI 3.0. In this world, though, many people and software/hardware will still be using plain old MIDI for quite a while.

And as long as REAPER doesn't handle MIDI properly, with these obvious issues getting so old, it's my use of REAPER rather than MIDI that will just get phased out.

ELP

05-02-2015, 05:24 PM

In fact MIDI is much more than the old MIDI communication protocol seems to be, today!
MIDI is the only realtime language to speak with all Soft- and Hardware Instruments.
That´s the fact, or does anybody know only one DAW or any other software
that speak/use an other language to trigger notes etc.pp. from for example items to a synth or whatever?

Of course there is OSC but..... did you ever create OSC messages in an piano roll or event list? :D

The only problem that MIDI today has, is the old 5-POL serial interface speed at fixed 31250Baud for all older Hardware...and also newer. That´s all.
For me, MIDI HD should/must have the option/specs to set different speeds for IN/OUT/THRU interfaces. So old hardware can communicate with compatible 31k and newer with much more of that speed without to overflow..

So for really every DAW, fixing important MIDI bugs/faults should have first prio! Otherwise it´s not a DAW it´s only an -derogatory remark- "Sample Baukasten".:D

reapercurious

05-04-2015, 10:51 AM

Mink99

05-04-2015, 04:33 PM

Midi in reaper was obviously a hack. No we suffer from that not being "designed" as properly as audio.

But we have to be aware that users of external midi are a minority amongst the reaper users. While some people are fighting hard to tweak two or three msec out of the midi clock, a vastly bigger group of reaper users is trying to find out how they get reaper running on a tiny laptop with or without asio4all. These are two worlds, and reaper will have to support both.

About midi 3.0 . As long as midi is mostly implemented on USB devices, a first step would be to have the current version aka the basics running except reaching out for new features. Sometimes this reminds me of lotus notes, the mail program which could do anything but mail.

Banned

05-04-2015, 04:49 PM

Dave Smith, the creator of MIDI really is the one to ask how to fix this problem. If he were a Reaper user I bet he would sort Mr. Justin out real fast.

Edit: I also think that speculation would be the best way for us grass roots types to approach things. My intuition tells me that there are 2 lines of code telling Reaper to do the same thing, and if they take one of those redundant lines out, MIDI will have more bugs. The only problem is that it will require simply too much time to delve deeper and find out why MIDI 'sort of works' right now, and this is because of the very problem itself. And once that very problem is discovered, then it can easily be fixed due to it being known concisely. If everyone speculates the way I just did, we will have things all hashed out and debugged in a jiffy.
We don't need Dave Smith to tell Cockos how MIDI should be used - the specs are sufficiently clear, and the rest really is a matter of common sense (which is exactly why the rest of the world got all this stuff right decades ago). We simply need Cockos to care about it enough to make some changes to REAPER's code.

And our speculations about that code aren't going to help - only actual coding will, and none of us can do that - only Cockos can.

Banned

05-04-2015, 05:14 PM

But we have to be aware that users of external midi are a minority amongst the reaper users.
Fwiw: these problems also affect users without any external MIDI - since MIDI is used with most if not all instrument (and many effect) plug-ins, too.

But indeed, users who care about a decent MIDI implementation are very likely a small minority. And perhaps even a shrinking number in absolute terms - since there are plenty applications that do a better job in this respect, they might just leave REAPER for what it is (and is not) and move on.
About midi 3.0 . As long as midi is mostly implemented on USB devices [...]
There are still millions of MIDI devices out there that don't use USB at all. And I'd bet you a beer that MIDI 1.0 will still be used when hardly anybody uses USB anymore. :)

Mink99

05-04-2015, 05:40 PM

There are still millions of MIDI devices out there that don't use USB at all. And I'd bet you a beer that MIDI 1.0 will still be used when hardly anybody uses USB anymore. :)

I was on PC/Mac as sequencer, you are right, next time when I am in Amsterdam I will pay the beer ...

reapercurious

05-05-2015, 06:56 AM

We don't need Dave Smith to tell Cockos how MIDI should be used - the specs are sufficiently clear, and the rest really is a matter of common sense (which is exactly why the rest of the world got all this stuff right decades ago). We simply need Cockos to care about it enough to make some changes to REAPER's code.

And our speculations about that code aren't going to help - only actual coding will, and none of us can do that - only Cockos can.

I think getting Reaper 5 is fiscally more important. It's probably fixed in one of the secret builds. It's simply an added value to those who will need to upgrade their license. It really is Reaper's business I agree.

DuX

04-17-2016, 10:42 AM

Well, I'm currently using the last v4 Reaper 4.78 and the bug is still here. I just recently decided to revert to a whole hardware setup and this bug is ruining my whole MIDI hardware "scheme". Aside from still being very annoyed by not having true mono audio tracks and I have to fiddle with the pins unnecessarily losing time and creativity in the process.

I will test the newest Reaper v5 and if the bug is still there I'm changing my DAW for the one that works with my setup properly. I don't use neither score edit, nor video. New, and for me unnecessary features keep coming, but the old and very irritating bugs are piling up never to be resolved. :( And I was just considering renewing my Reaper license for v5. Good that I haven't done it yet. I somehow think it won't happen and I'll just stay with v4.78 and use it... for something. :(

I feel really sad and angry because I've been with Reaper since 2007... left Cubase for it.

Dstruct

04-17-2016, 10:49 AM

Should be all fine in v5.

DuX

04-17-2016, 11:00 AM

http://old.trekipedia.com/images/library/people/phlox-ent-01-02.jpg

IT WORKS! This is really really important to me. A game changer. What a relief that it works! Smiling from ear to ear! :) I'm trying to recreate the workflow of a hardware sequencer in Reaper and this bug was ruining the whole experience. I mean, I'm trying to work with Reaper without using a mouse at all for MIDI tracking. ;)

I'm sorry for being so sceptical before but I thought this bug had just been put aside like many other remaining and quite annoying bugs in Reaper.

de3ds

10-10-2022, 01:54 PM