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Old 09-20-2011, 06:43 PM   #2022
flmason
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
Flmason you don't quit. I admire your tenacity, but it truly is in the wrong thread. The gear thread spinoff died a quick death, which should be a clue for you that it's a tired subject. You want to insist on taking about gear in THIS thread...for some reason. Since you clearly intend to do it regardless, I'll help you drive the thread into the depths of semantic hell:
It's not about tenacity, it's about defending a point of view I feel is truly valid and correct. And cutting through a lot of what seems like fuzzy thinking.

No, I don't want to talk about gear per se, except when something is critical. In reality the whole thread is about *gear use* even if just recording software.

I really want to get to the root of getting from the ass sounding sound that comes out of real amps and sims to what we hear on commercial recordings.

Nowhere have I gotten into "Mesa v. Marshall", "Fender v. Gibson", nor even "Humbucker v. Single Coil".

What I have done is postulate that the platitude, "Equipment doesn't matter" is a false one in many cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
It is quite clear to me, and I would argue to most everyone that uses them, that amp simulators do not, and currently can not, provide an exact simulation of a real amplifier. But it also doesn't matter what they sound like because there's no right or wrong way to use them.
I vascilate. Since I can't acquire every possible classic guitar or pickup out there, I'm still unsure how much is instrument vrs. sim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
If you want the sound of a real amplifier...use a real amplifier, understanding that this inherently limits the flexibility of the rig. If you are more interested in flexibility and having a LOT of tone shaping capability typically for a significantly lower price tag, simulators are probably your best bet.
Like many hobbyists, many reasons why I simply can't from neighbors to cost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
Wrong.

This isn't an accurate portrayal of the responses you've gotten here. No one has said that equipment doesn't matter (though some have said that equipment matters less). And the statement above is a blatant mischaracterization of the responses you've gotten so far.
I think I've definitely gotten a lot of flack for suggesting equipment is a major determinant. I think on this point we'll have to agree that your perception and mine of the degree of flack differs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
First of all. Yep has already provided a truly PHENOMENAL outline of what his interpretation of good studio and/or recording technique is. Unfortunately his points imply a need to experiment HEAVILY with his suggestions, and find out what works for YOU. If you want US to do it for you, I think you'll find more <crickets>...<crickets>...<crickets>...
Nah I don't expect anyone to do the experimenting for me. Have done it on and off most of my life. Hence the frustration level. And many who claim expert status don't really provide any true solutions.

What I get out of this thread is really things like "-18db is the new 0db" and other technicals like that. Very little of what I see in here, and perhaps it's spiritual predecessor "Slipperman's Guitars from Hell" thread or whatever it is, really talks about going from "Garage Band to Pro" sounds.

Aside from Yeps mention of distortion on vocals and drums, nothing in here has really had a significant impact on the record quality I'm having. That has been *great*. Between soundfonts and all the software tools like compressor, noise gates and all... light years beyond what could be done on the 4 track cassettes I had way back.

To my ears, the "assness" comes from the difference in timbre and tone that seems to come out of big name studios, rather than a bunch of mixing errors.

What portability problems I've experience probably come down to crap monitors.

So the assness that I believe plagues most amatuer efforts, I don't feel this thread really addresses. Nor any info I've found in years of digging really.

Seems most of what works ends up having to be "found" or tripped over. (As I've lived it, ain't sayin' that's universally true.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
Your excercise in assumption, that marketing from the manufacturer of a product like Gearbox is factual is just plain pointless. It's an exercise in the hypothetical. And defining what is and is not "pro" is equally pointless because it is subjective. It would be much more useful to attempt to go from "what sounds bad in your opinion" to "what sounds good in your opinion". Which is still subjective, but it does actually make it personal, as opposed to relying on the directions or opinions of others to define for you what a recording should sound like.
I have to disagree here. Line 6's marketing department implies and/or states directly, constantly in everything the write that thier tools accurately reproduce the sounds of classic tracks.

Has not been my experience in over 10 years of dabbling with thier stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
Translation: "Our computer software uses the same algorithms that our digital amps use. And those algorithms are designed to approximate the sounds of some well known amplifiers."

Simple.
Last time I got into a debate over thier truthfulness I extracted about 36 statements that they were recreating the tone of various classic albums before I quit.

Thier approximations are often quite bogus. Not ONE of thier models of a master volume head, actually has a master volume algorithm, LOL! They really seem to have one model, with some tweaks, when you get right down to it. But, I can't see the source code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
There is no authority that can stop Line 6 from conducting their marketing campaigns, this is a ridiculous pipe dream. And the most logical approach from a potential buyer would be to simply try the different options and choose the sound they like the best...and be done with it.
I think my point is being missed here. If thier stuff isn't up to it's claims, I'd like to see an authoritative studio guru say it in public loudly. If it really is up to snuff, I'd like to see said pro take a typical guitar, and step by step recreate a classic recording, i.e. prove it.

However I don't expect the FDA or whatever to step in, LOL!

Buying and trying is what sucks. After a lifetime of the hunt, I'd hate to sit down and total up the amount of $$$ I went through in the search. Especially in this economy, when having that $$$ might've ended up keeping me off the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
I'm certain that this is where you're encountering resistance in the form of the "it's the carpenter not the tools" responses. Nailing tone is easy, you've already highlighted that. You simply play a note and adjust your rig until you hear the tone you wanted to hear. If you can't do it, it is easily possible to change your rig so that you can get the tone you want to hear. Your "rig" can include everything between your hands, and the recording medium. Microphones, cables, amps, preamps, picks, strings, amp sims, the room, your headphones, your speakers, your PA system, WHAT...EVER. Easy.
It's as easy... and as hard as that. Easy to change a part... very hard to find the good permutations... which runs that cost in time and money up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815 View Post
However, playing well, with good technique, and developing your own playing style will go a much longer way towards defining you as an artist. That is what most of the people here are saying. The way you play your rig is much more of a artistic factor than what your rig is made of. This is because YOU will never play the same way as anyone else. The decisions you make when playing, the methods you used to learn to play, the physical limitations posed by your own body will always make YOUR playing different from anyone else's.
I believe this is somewhat genre dependant. Some more clearly highlight artistic/playing gestures than others. To wit, many of the sounds or production styles I find "commercial" these days are the very one's people say are devoid of any talent. Yet they are no easier to clone, as it were.

{Continued...]
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