[flmason]

[Continuing...]

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

Consider this carefully: I don't think anyone here denies you the claim that tone can be reproduced. I do, however, think that most of the people here feel that tone is one small part of the whole finished product. And I would submit that dedicating 90% of the effort to defining tone in a recording that consists of hundreds of other factors (many of which will have a significantly greater impact on the quality of the finished recording than your tone) besides tone is a waste of time and resources.

I've considered the general question for years. And I continue to find examples where studio results differ, with the same artist doing the playing, year in and year out, from the live and "live recording" results.


I disagree on the percentages and believe so should any thinking person. I don't think folks are clearly drawing a line between intrinsic tone and playing gestures.

Here's that Satch video again. Despite his awesome playing the tone is not there. So it still sounds like crap overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v5e1TTwts

Think about it. Many folks got into being musicians because the heard a sound that moved them. For me it ended up being the guitar sound in Free's Alright Now. No real playing wizardry there at all.

Many many hits fall into that category. Heck you could almost claim all U2 songs are in that box. I put this up as the counterpoint to those that try to use the Satch vid as a point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeupLXuoWko


In the end it's *ALL* about "the sound" I.e the tones, the timber, and the studio is just, ultimately the extended instrument.

And in the end, isn't what the studio staff does, the modifying of tone to make it work? LOL!

I have a friend who's worked with a number of big names in Nashville over several decades. I asked her about what happens in the studio with her singing... her answer, "Geez FL I don't really know, I sing...and THEY make me sound good." LOL!

She's on recordings that have charted no less!

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

Short and sweet. It is impossible to make your in the box recording, done in your home, sound like it was done in a professional studio. Clearly.

Well then you've essentially established that studio equipment, including the rooms etc. trump everything else when aiming for "commercial sound".

After all if even the pro's don't have the same sound outside the studio, then the studio is the key element in that delta.

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

This does not, however, mean that your in the box recording can't sound good.

The statement "You can make a recording that sounds like it was recorded in a professional studio by using in the box software in your bedroom" is so clearly marketing BS that I have a hard time believing you're even questioning it.

Well, theoretically, the concept of digital emulation strikes me as 100% valid. In *theory* all's we have to do is come up with the same waveforms and job is done.

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

However the statment "You can make a recording that sounds good, or even excellent by using in the box software, or good hardware, and good recording techniques, in a workspace well designed for recording" is what, I think, this thread is about. Understand your tools, understand your limits, and learn the most effective ways to work around both.

You HAVE found the answer though. You just don't want to admit that the answer does in fact imply that you have limitations about what you can reasonably achieve given your self-prescribed constraints. You're catching flack because you continue to insists that there is a more clear answer than everything you've already discovered.

What I'm insisting as simply that the actual techniques used to make the transition in sound is quite fair game here. But whenever it comes down to any specific track (i.e. bass, vocal, guitar) everyone gets all up in arms.

Strikes me as strange, since that's what it's all about... getting those sounds to work well together. *That's* the supposed real focus, right?

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

This is personal choice! "Tone" is personal. YOUR tone is personal. So there is no way to FIX tone. Tone is a decision...a choice...not something that can be defined as correct or incorrect. So your search for tone will only end when YOU are satisfied with it. Studio techniques will not provide it for you, and they can not change something you don't like into something that you do like.

I disagree. The Iommi video and others in that series prove that *it* can be done... It *is* done, and it's what the studio is *about*.

Don't like Iommi's fizzy version tone... do like the studio tone.

Don't much care for the Stones live sound, love thier recordings... and so on.

Now no doubt art is about personal choice. But I tend to think "commercially viable art" is another matter, especially in this field. Riffle across the FM radio dial and listen to how every track has similar production values to every other track, despite genre.

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

The studio techniques Yep sought out to describe are designed to take a sound, that you (or "the artist") has already defined, and create a proper recording of it. If you want to change the tone after it is recorded, that is, agian, a personal decision that can be made for any number of reasons artistic or technical and which is again not able to be defined as "right" or "wrong", and, again, there is no answer that anyone can give you that will ensure you are doing it correctly.

You are trying to make art into formula and it can not be done.

I think somewhere even Yep pointed out there are accurate and flattering recording techniques.

If you can't replicate something, if you don't know the recipe or better yet the exact technical definition of the end result, so you can have many possible recipies, you got nothing but a empirical finding. You don't really "know" anything.

Music is one of the most mathematical of human artistic endeavors, by any standard, LOL! 4/4 is a formula. 12 bar blues is a formula, scales are formulas...

That said, then essentially, your definition of the recordist's job is to be an accurate recordist and that he/she shouldn't be involved in the art part of it?

Was watching the "Classic Albums" series. Seems that many artists have high praise for the artistic contributions of one Mutt Lange, though.

Originally Posted by Gizzmo0815

You are getting blasted because you are repeatedly stating the obvious. And then insisting that we tell you how to do somethign that is impossible.

A formula is what you want...excellent...here is a formula:

If:
"In the Box" = A

and:
"In my Bedroom" = B

and:
"Studio techniques that are situationally dependant and can not be applied to every case, especially if A and B are constraints that limit my ability to achieve the result that I define as professional" = X

and:
"Professional Recording" = Y

Then:
(A + B) * X = Y

Happy solving. We'll meet up with you in the loony bin.

LOL! More likely I'll be under a bridge. Was hoping to resolve some of this before I end up homeless.

In any event, there are formulas for all these things, and when they are actually arrived at, the accurate emulations can be achieved, simple as that. After all if the same 0's and 1's are arrived at, or waveform in you're analog, if it nulls it is the same.

We may never get there, or we may hit processing power limitations, etc. but in theory it can be done.

P.S. Thanks for taking the time. Time is approaching for me wherein I may not be able to.

As an aside, what I get from your comments is:

1. Minimal digital "at home" tools can't do "Big Time Studio Sound".
2. Therefore equipment really is critical to "Big Time Studio Sound".
3. However, nothing's to say "At home sound is neccesarily bad, just inherently different".
4. The marketers are essentially full of BS, LOL!
5. You and others believe in the "fingers over equipment" argument despite #2.

Maybe some other points will sink in after I log off, LOL!

Anyway's despite someone saying I'm a "needler from afar" or whatever, that's not my intent. Trust me, every time I think I might have a solution and I conjure up an effect chain, or even write an effect from scratch, and then flip through 100 amp sims, it isn't about "needling", it's about frustration, LOL!

Thanks again.