Old 01-03-2013, 03:24 AM   #1
politcat
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Default Reaper 64 Pref Setup

i'm having problems getting Reaper to run smoothly on larger orchestral projects...
  • stopping/starting causes glitching
  • glitching consistently occurs in areas with automation
  • maximizing the buffer does not help at all
  • Reaper's bridge crashes when i chg the buffer size
  • after awhile smooth playback is completely impossible

my current project has 107 plugins running. only one is 32 bit (WizooVerb, dedicated). i think my system should not have any issues with this load. CPU is at 85%!

please recommend some Pref settings to improve performance

win7
i7-2600
3.4 GHz
16 GB RAM
(ADK system)

thx!

Last edited by politcat; 01-03-2013 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:22 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by politcat View Post
please recommend some Pref settings to improve performance
Call me Capt. Obvious... but have you tried using 'Freeze'?


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Old 01-03-2013, 10:04 AM   #3
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Sometimes its a particular plugin that is a bit flakey or is cpu hungry

Try disabling the first 50 tracks and see if problem goes away. if not, disable another 25 tracks and see what happens. Using this sort of technique you can sometimes narrow down the plugs or type of plugins that are causing the trouble.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:54 AM   #4
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Have you run the DPC latencey checker? It can reveal many issues with audio computers. It's free and super useful. Read up on how to interpret the results.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:56 AM   #5
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And even with your powerful rig, depending on what those 105 () plugins are, that is still quite a load.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:31 PM   #6
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hey y'all
besides Wizooverb i'm mostly using Slate (VTM, VCC) and IK T-Racks singles

really the only thing i'm doing differently from other large projects is using more instances of Wizooverb (one for each orch section, 5 total)

i've used DPC latency checker on a previous system. my current system is custom built by ADK and won't show any problems there

maybe this project is a big load for any system ???
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #7
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anyone else using a similar system and mixing large projects?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:07 PM   #8
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I don't know if those plugins are light on the CPU or not, but 105 plugins are definitely a lot. I mix large projects, even if not so large, and if I need more resources I freeze some tracks (part of the SWS extensions). A freezed track don't use any computing power.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:57 PM   #9
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try saving your song with a different name so you don't loose your work, then open the newly renamed song and remove the Wizooverbs and see what the CPU is like. When I had Wizooverb I seem to remember it being a hog on the CPU.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:20 AM   #10
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If you're using slate plugins on all tracks like I do, then try setting the defaults on vcc to not oversample on playback, just on render. Might help.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:00 AM   #11
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re: Wizooverb
it is a CPU hog so i did try deactivating all instances, made little difference

re: VCC
i completely forgot about the oversampling. but it was already off for real time

Last edited by politcat; 01-04-2013 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #12
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So, 5 CPU hogs, and another 100 (but 'lighter') plugins, with CPU level at an average of 85%, you said, and you wonder what's wrong? For starters, everything is wrong.

Not a good idea to be running steadily at 85%. Just because your PC may be able to sustain that (and your symptoms indicate it can't), it doesn't mean you should.

Honestly, please explain how it is that you need 105 plugins running on any project. You do know what bussing and sends are, correct? If this is merely you testing your chunky CPU chip to see if it can 'take it', then you are sort of wasting our time.

Do you want advice? I'm assuming you do since you've gone to this much trouble so far to start a thread and post.

Advice: There is really no justification on earth for running a project so heavy. If a symphony orchestra, then you shouldn't be fooling with the recorded sound by slapping all these plugins on top of what they are playing in the first place. Honestly, I'm having trouble picturing exactly what it really is that you are up to here, besides masochism (yourself) and sadism (your chip).

Any large studio production running something that big wouldn't be posting their troubles on a forum, because they would know how to avoid them, so you can't be some experienced, large-scale studio. My conclusion: You are in way over your head. Keep to no more than 24 tracks and no more than the same number of plugins until you have learned more about how all this is done properly. I'd say, give it about a year and read up on good recording technique and sound etiquette. People here mentioned freezing and other ideas to avoid the huge bloat you have going on, but I didn't get the feeling that you were very interested in cutting down to a more reasonable level. I hope I'm wrong.

Didn't a little voice whisper in your ear somewhere along the way in this project and tell you that you had gone way beyond the rational and sane, considering how much software crud you have loaded and choking the life out of your tracks? If no little voice, then you need to go to school for what you are attempting to do, or perhaps go back to school if previously attended. While it gets a bit dodgy to generalise from afar, just by the few numbers provided I can tell you this is not how it's done. The 'glitching' is your CPUs shooting constantly to 99% from your 85. Trust me, it's happening even if you can't see it because of the usual sluggishness of whatever metering you are watching visually (another no no). I honestly can't understand where people in just the last few years somehow think it's okay to keep slapping on plugins and tracks without a second thought, but I'm seeing and hearing about a lot of it. Musically, this almost always produces very poor results.

Good Luck.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:50 PM   #13
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Just out of curiosity, how many tracks are we talking about?
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
So, 5 CPU hogs... blah blah
not having a good day?
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:01 PM   #15
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Did you migrate your old reaper.ini to that new installation? Sometimes that doesn't turn out well. If that's the case try if resetting to default settings improves the situation.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
So, 5 CPU hogs, and another 100 (but 'lighter') plugins, with CPU level at an average of 85%, you said, and you wonder what's wrong? For starters, everything is wrong.

Not a good idea to be running steadily at 85%. Just because your PC may be able to sustain that (and your symptoms indicate it can't), it doesn't mean you should.

Honestly, please explain how it is that you need 105 plugins running on any project. You do know what bussing and sends are, correct? If this is merely you testing your chunky CPU chip to see if it can 'take it', then you are sort of wasting our time.

Do you want advice? I'm assuming you do since you've gone to this much trouble so far to start a thread and post.

Advice: There is really no justification on earth for running a project so heavy. If a symphony orchestra, then you shouldn't be fooling with the recorded sound by slapping all these plugins on top of what they are playing in the first place. Honestly, I'm having trouble picturing exactly what it really is that you are up to here, besides masochism (yourself) and sadism (your chip).

Any large studio production running something that big wouldn't be posting their troubles on a forum, because they would know how to avoid them, so you can't be some experienced, large-scale studio. My conclusion: You are in way over your head. Keep to no more than 24 tracks and no more than the same number of plugins until you have learned more about how all this is done properly. I'd say, give it about a year and read up on good recording technique and sound etiquette. People here mentioned freezing and other ideas to avoid the huge bloat you have going on, but I didn't get the feeling that you were very interested in cutting down to a more reasonable level. I hope I'm wrong.

Didn't a little voice whisper in your ear somewhere along the way in this project and tell you that you had gone way beyond the rational and sane, considering how much software crud you have loaded and choking the life out of your tracks? If no little voice, then you need to go to school for what you are attempting to do, or perhaps go back to school if previously attended. While it gets a bit dodgy to generalise from afar, just by the few numbers provided I can tell you this is not how it's done. The 'glitching' is your CPUs shooting constantly to 99% from your 85. Trust me, it's happening even if you can't see it because of the usual sluggishness of whatever metering you are watching visually (another no no). I honestly can't understand where people in just the last few years somehow think it's okay to keep slapping on plugins and tracks without a second thought, but I'm seeing and hearing about a lot of it. Musically, this almost always produces very poor results.

Good Luck.
. Amen. 105 Plugins ... Shaking my head
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #17
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Plus 1
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:40 PM   #18
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Hi I have 120 + track orchestral projects and have similar problems.

For me it seems to have to do with RAM issues - if you are usinf R64 and have 32 bit plugs the plugs run in separate processes which are less than 2G - running near full causes CPU load seemingly unrelated to plugin use.

likewise routed automation can start to bog things down.

Justin mentioned elsewhere that bridged plugs add overhead.

I have had better results running in 32 bits...

in nay case watch reapers ram size - one of my plugs sometimes leaks memory for instance. plus certain plugs (Kontakt!) have some settings re: memory use that can be retarded.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
I have had better results running in 32 bits...
you don't mean running Reaper 32 bit in 64 bit OS, do you?

the only 32 bit plugin i'm using is Wizooverb
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politcat View Post
you don't mean running Reaper 32 bit in 64 bit OS, do you?

the only 32 bit plugin i'm using is Wizooverb
I'm pretty sure that's what he's talking about. Some folks have better luck in 32 bit.

I believe you mentioned all your plugs (except the reverb) were 64 bit? Not sure that going back to 32 bit would help you...


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Old 01-05-2013, 02:10 PM   #21
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RE: bridging. You've really got to hand it to the REAPER gang regarding their own efforts to achieve bridging. It works so much better than I would have ever guessed, having had an 'experience' with jBridge about a year ago. But there is a cost. I little bit of processing for each plugin bridged, and we all know how things have the nasty tendency to add up.

I want to just say very briefly that I agree with everyone talking about memory issues and RAM. I'm one of the lucky ones using all 32 in a 64-bit machine, but once in a while and with certain plugins memory becomes an issue. I've meant to study this more, because I know there is a way to fix it. There is at least one way I know of to assign large memory to software being used. It involves dealing with each particular programme directly. You have to actually 'go in there' and make programme alterations. It is not without potential hazards and one must always keep a backup of the original item being modified, if only for use with further updates and versions to be release at later dates.

Still, overall and so far, I've had better results in my 32-bit setup.

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Old 01-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #22
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I love when everyone complains about some one using so many plugs and they haven't even heard what they are doing.

I've easily gone over 105 many times..
I use satson (FX off) as my attenuator/filters.. I use VCC on most all tracks and then Busses.. And VTM. That right there can add up to a lot and can be hungry.. I'm sending out my busses to summing box and running through outboard as well on the 2buss before returning to Reaper.

I'll sometimes (most times) freeze those tracks. So the gain is set where I want it. I use VTM after satson so the tracks feel like they are going off tape.. Then I hit the VCC freeze all that.

I will then start using comps and EQ's and all other stuff. On big sessions it can still climb plugin count..depends on what's needed and what I was handed to mix. Stuff I track can be totally different then what I'm handed.
Some tunes hardly need plugs others I've done are insane scary..But in the end it sounded good and must have been needed because it wasn't sounding good until I was done of course.

Plus even with all that I'm using UAD2 stuff and I can still end up pushing my system a little to hard at times as well.

As far as the question to the OP..
Have you tried playing with the buffer size now that you're mixing and not tracking? I'm sure you've done that but just asking.

I've had sessions in the past that actually gave me lots of trouble with really medium amount of plugs nothing crazy.. Then I'd go to another project with more and it would run smoother. Just weird!

I would sometimes take that weird acting project move it to another drive and it would seem better. Then I would have to investigate the old drive it see if it was fragmented.. honestly never could get to the bottom of it.
I'm pretty picky about keeping sessions clean and lean but seems like some project folders and get weird at times..

Try moving the project if you have another drive to play it from.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #23
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First of all, jockey, no one was 'complaining'. Read more carefully. Second and more important, OP was reporting in with a real problem. OP was asking for help. Look, I'm not going to screw around going back and forth with him, begging for specs. That's OP's responsibility. I took what he listed, even added a disclaimer about generalising without full info (do read more carefully), and ran with it. You go with what you got. If he was taking measures to reduce CPU cost, it was his place to inform us.

With few rare exceptions, such as recording or mixing an actual orchestra or creating a virtual one of your own ITB, I'll generalise again -- running with 100+ plugins, some of them real hogs, and claiming your CPUs are reading 85% is just plain foolishness. No law against it, though.

If his CPU from whatever management tool is showing this 85%, I'm sure you know that number is not realtime. That PC was probably hitting 99 every few seconds. He just wasn't seeing it.

Most of us who have been around a few years know where the bulk of this silliness is coming from. Ever since CPUs got big enough, RAM able to deal with enough, and HDDs able to store enough, then inevitably users began to create these massively bloated projects. It was expected. You hand loaded guns to enough untrained people and a few heads are going to turn up with new holes in them. I've even seen it as dumb bragging points. Your mates all meet in the pub and the new guy, being introduced, is trying to prove how skilled he is, 'Oh, most of my projects run at least 200 tracks, with scads and scads of [choose over-hyped brand here] plugins!' It's also a 'my machine is bigger than your machine'. It's become like a childish pissing circle.

For contrast, in your post you included mention of freezing tracks, using sends, plugs at summing, on busses, doing OTB processing, and perhaps more -- common practices, all. You have a very different animal than our original elephant. Also, the affordability and light CPU hits of many single preamps, tape effect, etc. -- Satson a popular example -- makes it nearly impossible to refuse this setup. I know these can still add up rather quickly, but this is an accurate emulation of a real-world recording desk -- and again you mentioned freezing tracks right after.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I'll sometimes (most times) freeze those tracks. So the gain is set where I want it. I use VTM after satson so the tracks feel like they are going off tape.. Then I hit the VCC freeze all that.
we have similar chains. i use Satson the same way followed initially by VCC and then VTM on all tracks. busses/folders only VCC mixbuss (altho i'm currently experimenting with EQs on busses). the other difference is that any other effects, like EQ, will be placed after Satson and before VCC. i've tried other ways and this is what works well for me. so you can see freeze would complicate my workflow as i have to place effects as needed thru-out the mix process

Quote:
As far as the question to the OP..
Have you tried playing with the buffer size now that you're mixing and not tracking? I'm sure you've done that but just asking.
yes, done that. (btw, i write, record and arrange in Live then mix in Reaper)

Quote:
Try moving the project if you have another drive to play it from.
will try that. i use 3 separate drives for OS, samples and project files. running a mix-only project from the samples drive should not be a problem

thx!
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #25
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i also found i could not get my usual low latency when recording so i tried un/reinstalling the interface driver (?)

big projects running well again

all is good now

yippee!
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:30 AM   #26
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You have another option. Buy VE Pro 5. It's hands down the best $350 I've spent in my musical life.

Even better if you can run it on a slave and have some of the plugins processing over there.

It sounds to me like you are trying to do everything on one machine, through only one or two programs and that all of those are being overseen by Reaper.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Even better if you can run it on a slave and have some of the plugins processing over there.
You can do this in Reaper already... using Reamote.


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