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04-22-2017, 03:35 AM
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#41
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
it's the burning process i'm interested to see how u burn that cleanly..
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Click "Burn" on your CD-burning software.
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04-22-2017, 03:37 AM
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#42
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
I'm not suggesting your 'wrong' in anyway-just curious of debate.
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I like debate and I want to help, but I'm not going to a chemtrails site and try to convince them not to fear chemtrails. I don't have enough time for that. If believing it aliases makes you feel good, then believe it.
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04-22-2017, 03:49 AM
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#43
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
I see a tone
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So why are you asking me to show you what you already see?
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04-22-2017, 03:54 AM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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Why not perform a DA > AD loopback test and see if you can produce and capture tones above 20 kHz ? (@44.1 kHz)
if you can't, I'd recommend getting a new interface...
__________________
I like turtles
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04-22-2017, 04:12 AM
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#45
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
So why are you asking me to show you what you already see?
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You claim to be able to burn that 21khz to cd-i'm not claiming anything so ain't burning anything..lol.
Others 'claim' that not to be the case=confusions.
"Audio from a CD that is higher than 20 KHz only can be an error."
"Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
I could synthesize a non-erroneous 21 KHz tone and burn it to CD."
"And you would get aliasing, unless it gets resampled with a good resampler to 44.1k before burning, which would then bandlimit that to get rid of the aliasing."
Claim your $200,000- it still has 0 to do with op. lolz.
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04-22-2017, 04:20 AM
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#46
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
"Audio from a CD that is higher than 20 KHz only can be an error."
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What he said there is.... Ask him for proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
"And you would get aliasing, unless it gets resampled with a good resampler to 44.1k before burning, which would then bandlimit that to get rid of the aliasing."
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He added that after I replied to his original post, so I hadn't addressed it. It's not getting resampled by any resampler to 44.1k before burning, because it's rendered to 44.1k in the first place in the DAW. Why's he resampling from 44.1k to 44.1k while burning CD's? Good question, but you'd have to ask him for the answer.
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04-22-2017, 04:25 AM
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#47
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
Good question, but you'd have to ask him for the answer.
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Nooooo - I am in fear mode of learning truths =)
You ask,he may bite..
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04-22-2017, 05:46 AM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 657
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I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF. I think with 20-20k digital there is information missing, that's why digital music sound dry(IMO). I can play music recorded from LP on reel to reel and the HF is smoother and richer and my machine only goes to about 23k. When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
I'm not a huge fan of digital audio, that's the reason I've gone back to using as much analog gear as I can. For me recording to DAW is a compromise, it's more practical and far cheaper but I'd rather go all analog if it wasn't so crazy expensive nowadays for small home studio.
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04-22-2017, 06:13 AM
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#49
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies.
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There is much truth here^ > perception is also `limited` to bandwidth.
We only decode a tiny tiny portion of all that is as humans.
Electromagnetic spectrum is far reaching.
In a digital world,everything arrives and goes out as variably organised packets of information.
Analog,by it's very nature is chaotic,until rea-ordered and contained in some form of media device,ie,speakers.
There's less distortions of tone and sample rates don't apply once converted back to currents,signal then becomes rather chaotic again,due to electromagnetic resistances and tolerances via cablings.
Seems op worked it out regardless.
Npz,nothing to see here >move along please. =)
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04-22-2017, 06:28 AM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeguy
I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF.
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20 kHz is the "average"' ,so yes, some can hear higher.
But ultrasound can not be felt like infrasound, because our skin has great dampening qualities for high frequencies.
Direct contact with bone is another story, though.
__________________
I like turtles
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04-22-2017, 08:56 AM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
And you believe that 21,000 is well above Nyquist (22,050)? I'll leave you to that.
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No not "well", but (regarding the physical synthesis filter) just very slightly .
-Michael
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04-22-2017, 08:56 AM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeguy
I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF. I think with 20-20k digital there is information missing, that's why digital music sound dry(IMO). I can play music recorded from LP on reel to reel and the HF is smoother and richer and my machine only goes to about 23k. When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
I'm not a huge fan of digital audio, that's the reason I've gone back to using as much analog gear as I can. For me recording to DAW is a compromise, it's more practical and far cheaper but I'd rather go all analog if it wasn't so crazy expensive nowadays for small home studio.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1
There is much truth here^ > perception is also `limited` to bandwidth.
We only decode a tiny tiny portion of all that is as humans.
Electromagnetic spectrum is far reaching.
In a digital world,everything arrives and goes out as variably organised packets of information.
Analog,by it's very nature is chaotic,until rea-ordered and contained in some form of media device,ie,speakers.
There's less distortions of tone and sample rates don't apply once converted back to currents,signal then becomes rather chaotic again,due to electromagnetic resistances and tolerances via cablings.
Seems op worked it out regardless.
Npz,nothing to see here >move along please. =)
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What a nonsense.
Both of you please go back to learn about "What is digital audio?" from the very start.
Both postings are uneducated assumptions at best and pseudo-esoteric BS at worst. Summary: there is no foundation of knowledge whatsoever and its only more addition to the noise of alternative facts. Stop doing this. This kind of meaningless blahblahing only scares people and has no purpose at all. The keyword here is "I believe..." - means: "I dont know." So if you dont know... please be quiet. Please.
A famous man who considers himself as being wiser than all of us once said - not that long ago: "Nobody knew that digital audio is such a tremendous complicated thing!"
Its science, math. And if you feel or believe anything you know it doesnt belong here and you are in deep trouble.
And no, analog is not chaotic. Analog is the same math and math is objective. If you feel otherwise, your feelings are wrong. Simple as that. There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
__________________
"Dear Americans... I told you so. Sincerely, your Aldous Huxley"
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04-22-2017, 09:49 AM
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#53
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haervo
What a nonsense.
Both of you please go back to learn about "What is digital audio?" from the very start.
There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
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Lol-sigh. Ok-i'm prepared to start over with you conducting lessons.How about it?
For a great master such as yourself haervo,this should be fairly easy/painless right?
I feel your blinded by your own delusions of what "reality" actually is.
Please explain yourself,while trying not to criticize others? >? I didn't think so..
Move on,or make nerdo mathmatic motions here.. you will find your "maths" also limited in many ways of explaining "audio"
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04-22-2017, 10:02 AM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haervo
And no, analog is not chaotic. Analog is the same math and math is objective. If you feel otherwise, your feelings are wrong. Simple as that. There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
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Analogue systems are indeed chaotic. The maths says so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system
This applies to the instruments being played as well as the analogue electronic systems used to capture and record their sound.
The real world runs on stochastic, nonlinear and chaotic systems.
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04-22-2017, 04:21 PM
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#55
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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For all you people who believe high frequencies are inaudible:
20 kHz LowPass Enabled:
20 kHz LowPass Disabled:
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04-22-2017, 11:11 PM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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(Only) Resampling the stream to a much higher sample-rate before analyzing the spectrum makes the result (useful frequencies and aliasing) visible in a reliable way.
-Michael
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04-22-2017, 11:19 PM
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#57
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
(Only) Resampling the stream to a much higher sample-rate before analyzing the spectrum makes the result (useful frequencies and aliasing) visible in a reliable way.
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Why do you believe that?
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04-22-2017, 11:39 PM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
For all you people who believe high frequencies are inaudible:
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Do you know what 'inaudible' means?
__________________
"As long as I stay between the sun & my shadow, I guess I'm doing well."
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04-23-2017, 12:06 AM
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#59
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodyelseuk
Do you know what 'inaudible' means?
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Yes, but do you? And do you understand that the frequencies coming out of a DAW and into your ears aren't necessarily the same as the frequencies going into the DAW? Do you understand that a DAW has buttons besides Record and Play, and that those additional buttons can modify the sound in between Record and Play?
Do you understand that " It doesn't matter whether xxx kHz comes into the DAW, because you can't hear xxx kHz" is a silly argument, because what comes into the DAW isn't the same thing as what comes into your ears?
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04-23-2017, 12:38 AM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
Yes, but do you? And do you understand that the frequencies coming out of a DAW and into your ears aren't necessarily the same as the frequencies going into the DAW? Do you understand that a DAW has buttons besides Record and Play, and that those additional buttons can modify the sound in between Record and Play?
Do you understand that "It doesn't matter whether xxx kHz comes into the DAW, because you can't hear xxx kHz" is a silly argument, because what comes into the DAW isn't the same thing as what comes into your ears?
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Really??? I did not know that!!!
__________________
"As long as I stay between the sun & my shadow, I guess I'm doing well."
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04-23-2017, 12:41 AM
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#61
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodyelseuk
Really??? I did not know that!!!
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That's what I'm saying about your question.
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04-23-2017, 03:04 AM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
Why do you believe that?
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Measurement equipment needs to be an order of magnitude better than the stuff that needs to be checked.
As any digital analysis using the sample rate the data stream to be checked is running in, obviously will be unable to determine the effects (such as band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing) introduced by the sampling process (e.g. A/D conversion, digital signal creation) itself.
Using the appropriate tools, you will see (and in case of aliasing hear) that (depending e.g. on the A/D process/filter) that with frequencies very near to Nyquist at least one of band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing will be introduced.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 04-23-2017 at 03:09 AM.
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04-23-2017, 04:25 AM
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#63
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Using the appropriate tools, you will see (and in case of aliasing hear) that (depending e.g. on the A/D process/filter) that with frequencies very near to Nyquist at least one of band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing will be introduced.
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What you're saying is true of every single filter ever, whether very near to Nyquist or not; so I don't see your point? I don't need meters to see that, because it's shown by pure math. What the pure math doesn't show, however, and what you haven't shown, is that there's anything special about the value 20 kHz. That value entered this thread only because it was selected by Voxengo as the default value of a parameter easily changed in Span. It's not nearly as profound as you make it out to be.
Which specific "appropriate tools" are you're suggesting I've overlooked? What are there names exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Measurement equipment needs to be an order of magnitude better than the stuff that needs to be checked.
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False, you don't actually need to resample anything in order to find the frequency-spectrum of a periodic signal. You're making a lot of assertions, but you're substantiating none of them. I learned DSP from Shannon's boss at Bell Labs, I've programmed for legends in the field of DSP, so I can't readily swallow unsubstantiated claims that seem bizarre to me from random people on the internet. I'll ask you yet again, will you please substantiate your claims with math? Why would I value your unsubstantiated claims that contradict the math I've been studying for decades? You made an amateurish mistake claiming that a sine-wave below Nyquist needs some "anti-aliasing" measure before being sampled---you are certainly capable of making errors---so why won't you substantiate your claims with math? Either you know the math to prove your claims and you can post it here, or you're quacking about things you don't really know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
As any digital analysis using the sample rate the data stream to be checked is running in, obviously will be unable to determine the effects (such as band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing) introduced by the sampling process (e.g. A/D conversion, digital signal creation) itself.
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That's not obvious at all. It's quackery.
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04-23-2017, 04:26 AM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Wow, MJUC Jnr. has some impressive fold-back aliasing!
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04-23-2017, 04:33 AM
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#65
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Wow, MJUC Jnr. has some impressive fold-back aliasing!
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Jr. doesn't over-sample (my recollection from when it was released, not necessarily correct).
But that harmonic run from 400 Hz to to 5,000 Hz is by no means aliasing.
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04-23-2017, 04:34 AM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
Jr. doesn't over-sample (my recollection from when it was released, not necessarily correct).
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I think that's true, because it lacks the high/low quality switch that MJUC has, which I resume controls oversampling.
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04-23-2017, 04:35 AM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
But that harmonic run from 400 Hz to to 5000 Hz is by no means aliasing.
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Interesting!
What else might it be?
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04-23-2017, 04:46 AM
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#68
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Interesting!
What else might it be?
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It is Intermodulation Distortion ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation). It occurs in analog (where there's no aliasing) just like digital. You'll get the same results using an all-analog path. (On the other hand, the energy over 5,000 kHz in my screenshots: maybe aliasing, I don't know for sure.)
I'm not sure intermodulation distortion is such a bad thing, and that's why I'm even in this thread. Intermodulation distortion is exactly what gives you energy one octave below the fundamental when you play a 5th on an amplified guitar (power chord). When you chop out high frequencies (too high to hear directly), and then distort, it changes the sound of low frequencies that you can hear.
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04-23-2017, 05:05 AM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
It is Intermodulation Distortion ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation). It occurs in analog (where there's no aliasing) just like digital. You'll get the same results using an all-analog path. (On the other hand, the energy over 5,000 kHz in my screenshots: maybe aliasing, I don't know for sure.)
I'm not sure intermodulation distortion is such a bad thing, and that's why I'm even in this thread. Intermodulation distortion is exactly what gives you energy one octave below the fundamental when you play a 5th on an amplified guitar (power chord). When you chop out high frequencies (too high to hear directly), and then distort, it changes the sound of low frequencies that you can hear.
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I see.
I was under the impression that plugins designed to emulate analogue signal processing are the only times you'll get IMD in DSP. Is that right?
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04-23-2017, 05:20 AM
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#70
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I see.
I was under the impression that plugins designed to emulate analogue signal processing are the only times you'll get IMD in DSP. Is that right?
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You'll generally get IMD from any non-linearity, e.g., compressor, saturator, amp-sim, regardless of whether it's designed to emulate analog.
In my graphics, the 400 Hz tone resulted from 31,000 and 31,400 Hz energy (not shown in my graphic) I fed to the Klanghelm (except when the 20 kHz low-pass intervened before Klanghelm).
This is a common occurrence with analog gear and with digital at higher sample-rates; unfortunately, during the sample-rate debates, the low sample-rate proponents misapplied the Nyquist Theorem to wrongly conclude that going higher than 48 kHz sample-rate makes no difference.
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04-23-2017, 05:22 AM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
You'll generally get IMD from any non-linearity, e.g., compressor, saturator, amp-sim, regardless of whether it's designed to emulate analog.
In my graphics, the 400 Hz tone resulted from 31,000 and 31,400 Hz energy (not shown in my graphic) I fed to the Klanghelm (except when the 20 kHz low-pass intervened before Klanghelm).
This is a common occurrence with analog gear and with digital at higher sample-rates; unfortunately, during the sample-rate debates, the low sample-rate proponents misapplied the Nyquist Theorem to wrongly conclude that going higher than 48 kHz sample-rate makes no difference.
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Thanks.
And I take your point; many people seem to confuse themselves over the effect of sample rate on delivery formats, versus the effect of sample rate on digital processing.
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04-23-2017, 05:48 AM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
That's what I'm saying about your question.
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Hiya.
Yeah... apologies, I was being sarcastic... I do understand what you were saying.
The statement about high frequencies being "inaudible" - it depends on how high and who/what is listening. Your images, as you know, demonstrate the adverse EFFECTS of certain deficiencies in the recording process.
They don't prove that inaudible high frequencies are audible.
It's just symantics, but accurate delivery is as important as accurate facts.
__________________
"As long as I stay between the sun & my shadow, I guess I'm doing well."
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04-23-2017, 05:57 AM
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#73
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodyelseuk
It's just symantics, but accurate delivery is as important as accurate facts.
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The thread started about what frequencies go into the DAW. Then some respondents twisted that topic into a discussion of what frequencies go into the ears. They were conflating, so I met them on their own terms.
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04-23-2017, 08:31 AM
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#74
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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*Walks away,hands in pocket,shuffling feet,whistling a 20khz song...*
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04-23-2017, 01:27 PM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 'straya
Posts: 9,409
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Sounds above 20khz are inedible.
hth
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04-23-2017, 07:35 PM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeguy
When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
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Bear in mind that vinyls usually get mastered differently than CDs. It might be that difference you're hearing.
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04-24-2017, 06:08 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haervo
What a nonsense.
Both of you please go back to learn about "What is digital audio?" from the very start.
Both postings are uneducated assumptions at best and pseudo-esoteric BS at worst.
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If digital is so good why does it need constant improvements both hardware and software. Every new product is always being improved, more bits, rates, new DACs... it never seems to end because digital audio is still broken. Analog has remained virtually unchanged for decades and is likely to continue so for a very long time.
As for the pseudo-esoteric BS, I'd rather trust my ears than magical specs provided by manufacturer because they generally mean nothing.
Some things like human perception just can't be measured that's why they have such hard time with digital audio. Good example is tube or tape emulation plugins. Even the best are no match for the real thing. If they were, why would people spend thousands of dollars for single piece of gear if they could get cheap plugin.
Last edited by Tubeguy; 04-24-2017 at 06:30 AM.
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04-24-2017, 06:19 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeguy
If digital is so good why does it need constant improvements both hardware and software. Every new product is always being improved, more bits, rates, new DACs... it never seems to end because digital audio is still broken. Analog has remained virtually unchanged for decades and is likely to continue so for a very long time.
As for the pseudo-esoteric BS, I'd rather trust my ears than magical specs provided by manufacturer because they generally mean nothing.
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For arguments sake lets imagine you had a technically perfect (or near perfect) product. Then imagine it was also based on components that were exceptionally reliable and last a long time.
What could you do to sell new product when your customer base has already bought your product?
What would you do in terms of marketing?
If everything is constantly getting better at a linear rate then there can be no classic Hi-Fi components or good but older plugins. New must always equal better, is this the case?
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04-24-2017, 07:53 AM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,561
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You're right of course Haervo.
Some people apparently have an odd misconception of what digital audio even means! Comments that suggest they think they are listening to "digital sound". Or that "digital sound" vs. "analog sound" are comparing two different entities.
There were probably some people that became adept at deriving speech from listening to Morse code directly back when that was a thing.
Can anyone listen to what would sound like modem startup sounds from the 1990's from a digital data stream and actually have the music encoded into it form in their head? I bet not! No one is listening to digital audio. It would literally sound like modem sounds.
It's all analog sound folks. It just happens to be stored in a digital encoding system and is reconstructed back to analog for listening.
The device we built to capture and store audio digitally still has a level of precision just like any recording device. We just found a clever way to deal with one of the difficult aspects - preserving high precision data. Turns out quantity is easier to build than quality. So a device that only has to preserve 2 states (on or off) but deal with a gazillion samples is easier to build than a device that has to store and recall with the precision needed for the raw data. So we encode the analog data into ones and zeros and we only have to do this critical high precision encoding with very expensive components once vs. every device every step of the way with an all analog system.
We're still working with physical components and analog circuits. It's about giving a wider tolerance for the difficult parts in a clever way to not sacrifice any data. Reading the data off the physical device digitally only means you have to resolve values rounded to one or zero. This can be crude as long as it's fast.
There's a crude simplicity to HD sample rates too. It's a difficult task to run the data band right next to the margin. So pad it by extending it beyond the audio band so the difficult part of keeping the sample rate frequency out of the data is a moot point because it's nowhere near the data. All the talk about content above the range of hearing playing some kind of magical roll is strawman fantasy.
Digital audio isn't some magical end all be all. It's just another tape deck with its own set of variables. There are plenty of things left to build and sell next year too! The bit where a company tries to hide a technology to save it for tomorrow to continue selling yesterday's tech today is more lazy and greedy than they are truly cornered.
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04-24-2017, 08:01 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
No one is listening to digital audio. It would literally sound like modem sounds.
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It's even more extreme than that! Old dial-up modems were still producing analogue sound. It is literally impossible to listen to digital anything, because we don't have an S/PDIF input in our cranium
Having said that, the storage medium certainly does have audible effects on playback. You can listen to a transfer of the same master on cassette, vinyl and CD and notice a difference. Even the voicing of speakers changes with fads of the time. You can't quantify the subjective nature of listening to music.
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