Looking for good affordable monitor speakers

[fladd]

Hi there,

I am looking for some nice, but affordable monitor speakers. (The stuff you can find in my signature was mixed on a compact home stereo!). I guess an active monitor is the way to go, isn't it?
I was looking at the Infrasonic Blow 5 which has good reviews and is at the top of my pricerange. Any experiences with this? Or any other suggestions?

Any help is highly appreciated.

Regards,
fladd

[DigiDis]

Probably best to take a CD of some mixes, some mixes that have already been mastered, and a few pro tracks in the genre of music you play to the nearest super music center and give them all a try to see if something really works for your particular needs.

I did this 6 years ago and found the old M-Audio BX5's to be really decent for their pricepoint. I also thought the Behringer Truth actives sounded decent. I personally liked other models better than the industry standard Mackies at their pricepoint. So, advice is nice, but you can't read how a monitor sounds. Its something you have to do with your own ears.

[thequietroom]

Im pretty happy with the mackie MR5s
When I was shopping monitors i didnt find anything below this price point that was impressive at all
To my ears at the 300 dollat point these were quite a bit better thatn the competition

[henge]

KRK's are OK as well/ RP5's I think.

[zenmonkey]

+1 to what DigiDes said and don't just convert some mp3s to CD when doing it. Take honest to goodness 44.1Khz wavs.

I'd also recommend checking out the Tascam VL-A series. I had a pair of the original VL-X5s and upgraded to a pair of VL-A8s for the low end. Amazing sounding monitors for their minimal pricepoint.

J&R's has the A8s and the A5s for about $350 shipped ground for a pair (http://www.jr.com/tascam/pe/TAS_VLA8/ vs http://www.jr.com/tascam/pe/TAS_VLA5/). I'd recommend listing to them first, I think they have a very neutral sound that some may not like.

Good luck and remember to trust your ears!

[zerocool]

When i was looking for my first set of monitors, i went to my local pro audio retailer, brought along my laptop with all my music and mixes, sat back and listened.

I ended up liking the Yamaha HS80m's, yet they were a little out of my price range ( around $1100 CDN)

i ended up buying a used pair off of gearslutz for like 500! love em

and yes, acoustic treatment will improve your ability to make critical decisions. but to be frank i'm being a tad hypocritical as i'm only a hobbyiest and have yet to build my own bass traps and panels.

[fladd]

I just checked the tascam 8", they are 450 euro here in Germany (that is 630 dollars): http://www.thomann.de/de/tascam_vla8.htm. Why are they so expensive here??? This is unfortunately way over what I want to spent.
I also checked the KRK, also too expensive.
Is it possible to get a decent pair for under 300 euro? (that is under 420 dollars)?
The Infrasonic ones seem to have good reviews. Only the bass is said to be a bit reserved. Maybe 5" is not enough?

fladd

[manning1]

fladd
people can flame me if they wish..
but heres my true feelings on monitors.
cos over the decades ive been round the monitor roundabout too many times.
n frankly they cheese me off.
bottom line i dont think there is a perfect solution.
even in big studios with soffit monsters costing a huge pile of dough.
ive seen AE's often mix on smaller monitors.
honestly the whole topics a piglet.
all i would urge you to do is think carefully before spending piles
of dough.
whats interesting is decades ago in the 60's the monitors werent necessarily the greatest. yet mixes from that period still \seem to translate well to radio today.
i firmly believe its more than just monitors.
its other techniques. for example years back a couple of AE's told me
test mixes were played on the qt at a radio station to see how well they stood up. cos the radio stations have got their own gear that imparts a footprint. i dont know if today...still...but orbans for example.
in summary if you go into a pro audio store n some sales bloke says a certain brand of monitors is THE FINAL SOLUTION..be sceptical n mebe rent a pair, do a few mixes n see how the mixes translate to lots of different formats.
car, radio station, mp3, the net/myspace n facebook players n many others.
tis a dogs breakfast..sincerely.
i cant afford hi end gear being retired, but from when i worked with it years back, i found no ideal monitor solution.
many songs years ago used to be checked on auratone cube speakers.
a 30 buk curtis clock radio with a stereo line input is a good way to see if a mix done on big monitors breaks down on cheap gear.
heres the basic problem, joe bloggs normal consumer often has cheap playback gear. so a mix that sounds glorious on expensive monitors
sometimes dont translate to el cheapo gear.

[riccol]

Yeaaaah Manning!
Wish I could have expressed it that well. But I too have been down that road and completely agree!

[manning1]

riccol
good to find another realistic person like your good self.
i'm a magic fairy dust sceptic.
or maybe i just been burnt too many times..lol.

[riccol]

The fairy dust is a mirage. Write songs, play music and listen... listen real hard!

[dub3000]

if you're on a tight budget, tannoy mercury speakers - well the m2's, anyway - have the same drivers as the old tannoy reveals (and better crossovers, but a worse cabinet).

you can pick these up second hand really cheaply. and they translate very well. those and a nice old stereo amp will sort you out. then spend the difference on room treatment.

[fladd]

But stereo amps are not meant to be linear, right?
That is why I thought active monitors would be better.
What about the Samson A6 (or whatever they are called)?

fladd

EDIT: Oh and I just looked it up, the mercury are also hifi speakers, right?

[drillbit]

I know I go on bout them but my Adam A7's have been a revelation to me. I previously had Tannoy Reveals. They are like mud compared to the A7. The most impressive thing is how they translate. I have mixed the night before a gig in a big club with great response and have mixed and played them on radio that afternoon. All good.

I never found this with NS10's or JBL (older models) or KRK (v8). The Adam A7's just seem to have a sweet middle ground and overall clarity that has done wonders for my mixes.

Good monitors are worth the money and I kick myself for not getting some earlier. I bought keyboards when i should have bought monitors.

Thats my experience anyway.

[Klemperer]

I would agree to many things manning1 wrote, still after many years without monitors at all (just my humble hifi, and I listened to tracks in cars, with AKG-headphones, whereever someone allowed me to really ) I am just happy with my infrasonic blow5. For serious electronic music and other heavy bass sounds you'd need a subwoofer too, but I am happy with that solution. Of course this is not " the way to go", and of course I can't say I have a first rate setup in my home! But listening to many records you love on a pair of monitor boxes you chose after careful listening IS an improvement.

and sometimes we just have to say that we like different things. Again, I would agree to many things manning1 said, but on the other hand sometimes I think it's nice to make your music sounding as good and clear as it gets, but great musical ideas (for each of us quite a different thing) are great musical ideas even if we got no pro-studio.

I always have to think about that true story that as the old grammophone came out classical musicians and listeners were all raving about it. After listening 15 minutes to this for today's ears extremely crappy thin sound - they thought "this is like reality"...

Sometimes a recording of Otto Klemperer made in 1927 gave me (and quite a few others) shivers down the spine, and not because it was crappy^^, whereas some Herr von Thielemann with his hi-end recording from 2008 can make me want to add some farts at certain bars. These things happen.

Again, there seems to be something true in this and there seems a lot to be true in manning1's point of view.

So go for nice monitor boxes after you tested them inside out .

And for people who have to rely on headphones due to neighbours or what do I know - the 112db "redline monitor" plugin is outstanding. You won't give up using your monitor boxes, but you get better mixes done if you HAVE to use headphones like I have to do often. cheerioh all.

[daal]

Focal CMS 50 and 65 got MIPA Award and seem to be very very good for the price, for what I heard.

Can find the 50 for 449€ here in France, but don't know for the rest of the world as it's a french manufacturer.

Can find some feedback here :

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/good-...vent-opal.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-e...-cms-50-a.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...-cms-50-a.html

[daal]

If you're interested, you may find a local seller by contacting directly focal on Gearslutz (the OP of the first link I posted belongs to the company).

Edit : I see you're in germany, should be possible to find them at a good price there (439€ on thomann).

In US, it's more like 1200$ oO due to import price I presume.

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by fladd

But stereo amps are not meant to be linear, right?
That is why I thought active monitors would be better.
What about the Samson A6 (or whatever they are called)?

fladd

EDIT: Oh and I just looked it up, the mercury are also hifi speakers, right?

most decent stereo amps are flat from near DC to up into the MHz range. they definitely differ in terms of power supply/transient handling but a good quality cheap 2nd hand stereo amp is going to perform fine. and there are loads of them about, lots of people are ditching their (good) old stereo amps for (crappy) surround systems.

the mercurys are hifi speakers, but everything except the cabinet is exactly the same as the old tannoy reveals, which were marketed as studio monitors (and are pretty good). as in, when i got mine one of the drivers was blown and i replaced it with a tannoy reveal driver, and it matches perfectly. you were after something cheap, and these are REAL cheap, but sound great for the money.

[jamesp]

Originally Posted by manning1

whats interesting is decades ago in the 60's the monitors werent necessarily the greatest. yet mixes from that period still \seem to translate well to radio today.

They were quite a bit better than most speakers around today. There are one or two mastering studios using Quad ESL's which were designed around 50 years ago. The speakers that I use were designed over 30 years ago.

Cheers

James.

[fladd]

I watched ebay since my last post, but could not find the Mercury M2.

What I could find are the Mercury MX1 or MX2 (for about 119 Euro) as well as the Mercury Fusion.

Are they as good as the M2?

fladd

EDIT: And also the Mercury F1 are available.

[semiquaver]

aside from linearity the important thing in monitors is phase coherence. this is where a lot of cheap monitors fall down. if ou can afford Dynaudio BM-6 they are great.

[battla]

i agree pretty much with everything manning said about monitoring. with that qualification, here's my two cents on what's out there right now: i'd look at the recent low end tascam monitors or an old pair of event alp5s in the price range you're looking at. i've never heard the infrasonics - this thread is actually the first time i've run across that brand - who knows - they might be great. i have NOT had good experiences with budget mackie/tapco, krk, yamaha, and tannoy stuff, and various midrange JBLs i have heard ran the gamut from very good to terrible. if you wanted to save up awhile longer the adam a7s mentioned above really are nice except below 70~80Hz when they get just acceptable. i won't spend 3k on them, but i was very very impressed by the new event opals - granted i heard them in a nice room, but i've heard stuff costing much more in the same room and those things might just be the best dang nearfields i ever used. looking forward to some used ones hitting the market in a year or so.

[battla]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

aside from linearity the important thing in monitors is phase coherence. this is where a lot of cheap monitors fall down. if ou can afford Dynaudio BM-6 they are great.

if linearity and phase coherence are the yardsticks of a good reference monitor (i'm not sure i agree), then old Theil CS1s through CS1.6s with a well-matched amp ought to be some of the best reference monitors ever made (again, not sure i agree ). I personally think the earliest coherent source designs (CS1 and CS1.2) were the best, but i'll tell you this - the whole CS series is gonna be pretty much untouchable at the price point a used pair goes for if phase coherence and linearity are your sole metrics - that was really the whole point of the early Thiel designs.

now that i'm thinking about it i'm kinda surprised it never occured to me to try this before - Jim Thiel's whole approach to speaker design really kinda makes more sense for monitoring than it does for reproduction. i've always thought of him as the guy who inadvertently proved that accuracy wasn't the holy grail everyone thought it was for hifi systems, but i never made the next logical step of trying his stuff as monitors.

old 70s pioneer or sansui integrated receivers have some great power amp sections and sound gorgeous with CS series Thiels - although that probably wouldn't be a great choice for a monitoring system. if you'll excuse me i'm going to have to go lug an old pair of CS1s from the shop to the control room now to try this out...

[fladd]

The Dynaudio are definitely out of my range.

So, what about the Mercury MX2 for 120 Euro? Or the other mercury?

fladd

[Alistair S]

For affordable and decent, you could check out the Tapco S5s.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...es/tapcos5.htm

[yep]

What everybody else said.

Listening is the best way to tell (presuming you know what to listen for), but when you're moving up from a typical home stereo (even an expensive one), pretty much anything that properly qualifies as a reference monitor will be a revelation. The best way to audition speakers, if you have the credit, is probably to buy a few promising sets with a no-questions-asked return policy and keep the best one.

When going by reviews, trust reviews from working audio engineers over reviews from home users and stereo reviews. What you want is not "good sounding" speakers, but accurate speakers that tell you what the underlying audio actually sounds like. The people best-equipped to report on this are people who actually make records for a living and who have actually used this set of speakers for that purpose. Unfortunately, very few working engineers make records with lots of different low-end monitors-- they usually find one good set of speakers that they like, and then use those.

My best advice is to check ebay's "completed listings" and pick based on resale value. If you buy a set of older speakers that hold value well, then you can easily re-sell them when and if you decide to upgrade. And the likelihood of a set of $400 speakers lasting for the rest of your life is... well, it is what it is.

RE: Manning1's points:

It's certainly true that there is no such thing as a "perfect" speaker (but some of them get pretty damn close). Even if there were, most people would probably still want to double-check important mixes on headphones, in the car, or whatever. But the fact that all water has impurities does not mean that there is no difference between drinking water and raw sewage.

The importance of monitors is as a measurement tool. If the speakers are compressing the sound, then you cannot intelligently operate a compressor. If the speakers are rolling off frequencies at the crossover point, then you can't tell what your mix actually sounds like at those freqs. If the speaker is putting out a hyped, dramatic, thumpy "one note bass" then it might sound very enjoyable to listen to, but you have no idea what's really going on in the low end or what your mix is going to sound like on other speakers. If the speakers offer sizzly highs that make everything sound sparkly and airy and hi-fi, then there is no way for you to tell whether your audio actually sounds that way, or if it's just the speakers.

What is important is not that your monitors are forensically "perfect" (although that would be ideal). What is important is that they are accurate and trustworthy and that your mixes sound basically the same when played back on other sets of speakers, within the parameters of the playback speakers.

So in that sense, and without knowing of any particular set of monitors that unequivocally blows away all the competition at that price point, you could say that pretty much anything reasonable should be a big step up from most home stereos, and you don't necessarily need to worry about squeezing the last little percentage point of performance.

[fladd]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
I am still very indecicisive, though.

The Tapco seem to be nice and cheap, but are said to miss lower end.
Since I mix bassy music most of the time, the bass part should not be the worst part of the speaker I guess. however, I could get them for 99 Euro a piece (factory refurbished) here in Germany.

I missed the chance today to get used Tannoy Reveal 5 on Ebay (I was too late!), but I am still having the possibility to get Tannoy System 600 on Ebay. I also still watch out for the mercury.

More suggestions are of course always welcome :-)

fladd

[shawnguess]

Originally Posted by drillbit

I know I go on bout them but my Adam A7's have been a revelation to me. I previously had Tannoy Reveals. They are like mud compared to the A7. The most impressive thing is how they translate. I have mixed the night before a gig in a big club with great response and have mixed and played them on radio that afternoon. All good.

I never found this with NS10's or JBL (older models) or KRK (v8). The Adam A7's just seem to have a sweet middle ground and overall clarity that has done wonders for my mixes.

Good monitors are worth the money and I kick myself for not getting some earlier. I bought keyboards when i should have bought monitors.

Thats my experience anyway.

+1 on the Adam A7's.

ive used mackie hr824's, jbl lsr6328's, etc -- but the A7's just do the job perfectly and dont break the bank.

[fladd]

Well, the Adam A7 are about 1000 Euro a pair, which is way over my budget.

fladd

[fladd]

So, today I had a very interesting experience.
I went into the Musicstore in Cologne in order to have a listen to all thee monitors around 300 Euro.
The guy who helped me immediately told me that in this price segment only the KRK GP5 is any good and that this would probably be what I would end up with.
When I asked him about the Tascam he, since they are praised in all reviews, he just said that they are one of the worst monitors, with no bass under 120Hz. He also told me to look at the ESI Near 5 Experience, the Tannoy Reveal 5A and some M-audio ones.
Since I was interested in the Tascam and they did not have the VL-A5 there, he hooked up the VL-A4.

Well, I then listened to all of them which confused me a lot.

The first one was the KRK, I played one of my reference tracks and this speaker is really boomy, a lot of bass, very few highs, all in all kind of dull and damped.
Next the Tascam, this one was way brighter especially in the mids. The bass was very silent, so it had an entire different sound and a very nice stereo field.
The others I tested were a bit more like the KRK in the sense that there was very much bass.

What confused me was that I think there is no way, the KRK and the other have a linear frequency response! The bass seems to be very prominent and while I need bass, because I do bass heavy music, it still feels weird for a monitor box. I always thought a monitor box should be really balanced without stressing a specific frequency range. Also the more expensive ones from Gelec, Adam, Yamaha, Mackie, Dynaudio and what ever had a very excited low end according to me.
The Tascam seemed totally different in this respect and I can see why this guy told me they are one of the worst in his opinion.
According to me they had a bit less bass, but then again, they are only 4".

So I will probably drive to another store this weekend to listen to the VL-A5 since they have a 5" bass speaker.

I am still confused, though, since I am wondering if the bass heavy thing is something good or not (apparently most of the expensive speakers have this, so it cannot be a very bad thing, can it?).
Maybe the missing low end and the very bright sound of the Tascams is indeed a bad thing (since I might put too much bass and too few mids in my mix with them)?

So, what are your opinions about that?

fladd

[shockwave199]

Did you get around the back of each speaker and confirm they were set flat? Most monitors have some shelving options on the back side- it's something to check and make sure is set flat. Choosing monitors can be very tough. The store isn't the same as your room either. It really comes down to taking a set home, doing a mix on them and seeing how it comes out. That's ultimately what it comes down to. If the store will let you buy/return them and try another, you'll make a much better choice. Good luck.

Dan

[daverich]

I have a set of alesis M1 active Mk2s.

They translate very well and are very affordable (in fact they translate WAY better than my much more expensive dynaudio BM6as which incidentally have very little bass).

Kind regards

Dave Rich

[kelldammit]

i'd agree that there is no "perfect system"...there's always a tradeoff...that's just physics. what it comes down to is what works for YOU.
when trying out monitors, i'd perhaps suggest having the salesman open a demo project in a daw (or better still, bring a project of yours with reaper on a usb key), and then put an eq on a track, and start gently adjusting it. it's amazing how far you might have to go to actually start hearing any difference at all with some monitors. that can really be an eye opener.
insofar as bass response, that's really one of the big gotcha's regardless of the system you choose. at this pricepoint, you're looking at a compromise regardless. personally, i'd really focus more on imaging and definition in the low-mid to high range of the spectrum. check your bass with good headphones (imo, you'll pretty much have to do this regardless).
the key will be "learning" your monitors. once you know how they behave, you'll just get a feel for what works and what doesn't. be patient and spend the time on finding the best placement, adjustments etc. so be prepared to do a lot of listening to test mixes on various systems around the house and in the car. it's a lot of trial and error, but almost no matter what you go with, you can get good results.
treating the room is also strongly recommended. it can save you a lot of grief, and can be done on the cheap, DIY-style.
insofar as possible systems in your pricepoint, you could check out nht m00's (even with the sub, they may be in your range). also blue sky makes some pretty okay desktop systems that shouldn't break the bank (mediadesk 2.1 in particular, mebbe the pro). otherwise, i would generally recommend at least a 6" woofer.
http://www.nhthifi.com
http://www.abluesky.com

best of luck and happy hunting! let us know how you make out!
kell

[fladd]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestion. Again this forum is most helpful!
I will go to Frankfurt tomorrow and check again.

Oh, and I just remember another thing the guy from Musicstore told me when I said that the Tascam got very good reviews. He said that they just have more money to pay for those reviews. Is it really entirely like this? They pay for good reviews?

fladd

[kelldammit]

sort of. a magazine depends on advertising revenue to a large degree, so they may or may not be likely to bite the hand that feeds, so to speak.
it's wise to take most reviews (like any other opinion) with a grain of salt. if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. often user reviews are written by folks very excited with their new toy, so they may not be likely to point out any really serious shortcomings, or, in fairness, just may not be aware of them yet. reviews can help point you in the right direction, but in the end, it's up to your ears to decide what works for you.

also, "excellent for $100" is a different standard than "excellent if cost is no object".

kell

[jamesp]

Originally Posted by fladd

Oh, and I just remember another thing the guy from Musicstore told me when I said that the Tascam got very good reviews. He said that they just have more money to pay for those reviews. Is it really entirely like this? They pay for good reviews?

I've seen a few reviews that looked suspiciously like paid reviews in certain magazines (or maybe the reviewer was just too dumb to know what he was talking about) but there are still a few trustworthy magazines whose reviewers cannot be bribed. I'd generally trust Sound On Sound reviews although you have to remember that 'good for the money' means that it could be improved upon. Unfortunately Sound On Sound don't seem to have a VLA5 review on their website.

One other thought - if most of the speakers sounded too bassy it is possible that there is an acoustic problem with the demonstration room. However, quite a few modern studio monitors seem to have rather overblown indistinct bass to my ears - probably due to the design of their reflex ports.

Cheers

James.

[shockwave199]

Next time you check out monitors, politely ask the sales guy to keep his opinions to himself until you are done listening. That alone can alter your perception, before you even begin. Have them set them up, and then shut up. It's about what YOU hear and like, not them. When you factor in all the bullshit they spew for reasons that have nothing to do with your actual 'best interest', let alone the fact that most sales droids know SHIT about anything relevent to your purchase, they are the LAST person you want whispering in your ear when meading through monitor choices.

Dan

[smueske]

Pony up the dough and buy Adam A7. I cannot stress enough how detailed these monitors are. For the money, there's nothing even close.

[fladd]

I listened to the A7 and it was also quite bass enhanced and thus a bit damped like the KRK. Actually only the Tascam had really loud highs (if this is good or not, I don't know).

We'll see, I will go to another shop tomorrow afternoon. I will report back how this listening session was then :-)

fladd

[mrelwood]

Originally Posted by fladd

Gelec, Adam, Yamaha, Mackie, Dynaudio and what ever had a very excited low end according to me.

Since you are coming from hifi speakers, your ears might not be able to tell you what is neutral. It is also very possible that the speakers in the shop were situated badly creating exaggerated bass. You will notice that the same speaker sounds very different in different stores.

This is a dear subject to me, since I've been on a monitor quest several times. I'm sure I've got opinions that irritate some. But by my experience:

GENERAL:
- 300€ monitors and reasonable room treatment and positioning is a lot better than just 1500€ monitors.
- It takes months to get used to any set of monitors, no matter how good/expensive. Think about it, you have fooled your ear with bad speakers for all of your life so far.
- In order to make a mix sound decent in ALL generic hifi speakers, you must have great monitors and a whole lot of experience.
- Human ear can easily compensate for a few dB's of missing low end shelf, but not for a slow or directionally vague bass. Nor for a sharp cut/peak in midrange.
- There are genres in high $ monitors also. You should find out wether you find Genelec or the Focal/Dynaudio mid/treble balance neutral.

BAD EXPERIENCE:
- Adam P11 was great until I got my Focal Solo 6 Be's. After that I was actually embarrassed to demo the P11 to the guy who bought them from me.
- I couldn't work on Tannoy Reveals, I must know what happens in the hi freq area.
- I can't work on any Genelecs. I must know what happens in the mid freq area.
- I found Mackies not revealing enough (HR824, HR624).
- Any subwoofer makes the bass freqs come from different direction. This disturbs the sound field.
- Never liked what I hear from Alesis actives (M1? MK1?, not sure).
- 8" woofer is bad producing a solid midrange for nearfield. 6" seems to be the optimum.
- Klein & Hummel O 110, although great imaging, lack of bottom makes them useless.

GOOD METHINKS:
- Future Music Gear Chart listed Samson Rubicon 5A's (347€) right after Genelec 8040's (1600€). That's quite a statement, makes me wanna listen.
- Behringer now also have ribbon B3030A's for 289€, though the treble wasn't 2030's biggest gripe. Should get a listen though.
- A very quick listen to Tascam VL-X5s made me think real good about them.
- Prodipe Pro8 were nice, but I would've liked a smaller woofer for the mid freqs. I think I would've really liked the Pro5.
- ESI nEar05 were great for the size, but the treble was too dead.
- Some magazine really liked Fostex NX-6A. Cheaper Fostex's could be worth a listen.