Am I the only one who isn't crazy about convo verbs?

[cerendir]

I don't mean to start a flamewar here, or a 'which verb is best' debate. And it should be noted that I'v never used any high-end commercial convo verbs like Altiverb, only free ones (SIR in the past, Reverberate LE these days). But sometimes I wonder if it's really worth the hassle using convolution reverb. At least with the free plugs, you have so little control over the timbre and other nuances of the IR's that finding one that suits the music always comes down to trial and error and lots of wasted time.

I spent most of yesterday auditioning maybe a hundred different hall IR's, trying to find one that would fit the music I'm working on (an orchestral piece, so the reverb is pretty crucial). After a dozen or so I found a good one -- or so I thought. When I came back to the tune after having had some lunch, I realized that it sounded terrible. Thank you, ear fatigue. I started over, went through another dozen, found a good one. Guess what? Same thing again.

Out of frustration I finally loaded up an algorithmic reverb, and within minutes I had pretty much exactly the sound I was after. Not because the algo verb was of higher quality (which it technically wasn't, considering the h/w the IR's were captured from) but because I could control every aspect of the reverb sound and could easily dial in something that worked. Plus that to me, algo verbs always sound more live and have more clarity than their convo counterparts.

It's always like that. Everytime I find some great freebie IR's I'm awed by their richness and detail. And everytime I find myself going back to an algo verb before long, as picking an IR that fits the music is too much work.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to slam convo verbs in any way, they're incredibly useful for some stuff. Adding realistic room ambiences, for example, which most algo reverbs seem to be pretty bad at. But I find it incredibly hard using IR's for a single master reverb that is used on a ton of different instruments. And yet there is so much hype surrounding convolution, everyone says that it's the ultimate in quality and realism etc. I just don't get it. Am I doing something wrong, or do people actually sit around for days and weeks to find the right impulse for their music?

Just curious what everyone's stance on the whole algo/convo thing is.

[griz lee]

Nope, i don't really like them too. I can see the point, and why they might be attractive.

However, i'd (a) want to tweak everything to get it in the zone -- nothing worse for me than a half-tweaked reverb and (b) i just like the less complex and less 'space-like' space of an algoverb.

I don't want my listeners to think they are sitting in Notre Dame, i'd rather they hit with 'random-hall' or 'tiled room' or similiar*.

Generic space is great. Go algo-verbs!


*I have to admit i'm addicted to TC's own vss3 preset 'Gents public toilet stall'. Really good close spaces. Ouch!

[Chris Ihao]

I seriously dont think that many would recognize the Notre Dame. Hehe.

I love conv. reverbs for adding natural room, and algo (eos is my fave) for unnatural or very large space.

Cant start a flame war if we like both

[toyhouse]

As with everything we use to shape sound - they both have their place I guess.
I will agree with above post though - for large space I don't use'em.

For the tiled room etc - many uses to liven-up drums recorded in dead space etc.

I use convo plates often however. Many impulse files out there suck though.

Time to build a "real plate",. Then I won't complain as much.


Jim P.





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[Kainz]

Well, you're kinda spot on.

IR's are great for static "realism reverbs"; ambiences, plates, room stuff and so on. Though even in these cases they have to be, most of the time, processed with EQ (not the IR, the reverberated signal - naturally). However, this is a completely normal process to do with hardware reverbs too.

On lively, often unstacic and modulated, halls and chambers algorithmic reverbs tend to sound much better - if they're of high enough quality that is.

[kindafishy]

I'm with you.

I was using convo verbs to give a sense of density or space to a group of instruments, and using 2C Aether for any other reverb applications I needed, but I have stopped doing that.

I find 2C Aether to be such an incredible reverb plugin that I can dial in anything that I have been able get out of a convo verb. For me, it is the be-all-end-all (for now) and the more I use it, the more control I have over it, the more I like it.

IR still has it's place in my workflow, but it's only for guitar cabs now.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by griz lee

I don't want my listeners to think they are sitting in Notre Dame, i'd rather they hit with 'random-hall' or 'tiled room' or similiar*.

Yes, I agree with this. I'm not really interested in using real spaces, I much prefer creating a virtual space from scratch. Partly because it's more creative than just loading an impulse, and partly because I can tailor it to pefectly fit the music I'm working on.

Originally Posted by toyhouse

As with everything we use to shape sound - they both have their place I guess.

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I definitely find convo verbs useful, but not for large spaces.

Anyway, it's interesting to hear everyone's opinion on this, not to mention comforting to know that I'm not alone in thinking convo verbs aren't really as great and versatile as sometimes advertised.

On a related note, how does modulation in an algo verb work? I've been trying to liven up the sound of IR's but I can't seem to figure out how to modulate the signal. I tried inserting a a chorus after the verb plug, but it doesn't sound really right no matter what I do. Even at very subtle settings it seems to mess with the stereo image in odd ways. Anyone have any good tips on this?

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by cerendir

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I definitely find convo verbs useful, but not for large spaces.

Sorry, you know how forums sometimes make comments come-off incorrectly.
Espeacially with folks like me, lol.

I was agreeing with you, it was just long worded as usual.
Don't care for the big space convos either.
I'd much rather have a REAL plate. A project of mine on the back burner.

Also on a side note; eq certainly helps with convos. Depending on the file and how crappy is was too begin with - I solo them out, (even after I stated elsewhere that I don't, lol), and hi-pass them. Some of them leave the bottom with a lot of rumbling doo-doo, <-tech term, lol.


Jim P.





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[audioguytodd]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

Sorry, you know how forums sometimes make comments come-off incorrectly.
Espeacially with folks like me, lol.

I was agreeing with you, it was just long worded as usual.
Don't care for the big space convos either.
I'd much rather have a REAL plate. A project of mine on the back burner.

Also on a side note; eq certainly helps with convos. Depending on the file and how crappy is was too begin with - I solo them out, (even after I stated elsewhere that I don't, lol), and hi-pass them. Some of them leave the bottom with a lot of rumbling doo-doo, <-tech term, lol.


Jim P.
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I have two resolutions this year:

1- Quit smoking
2- Build a plate. I have the perfect place in the basement to put one

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by audioguytodd

I have two resolutions this year:

1- Quit smoking
2- Build a plate. I have the perfect place in the basement to put one

Ah-Ha!
I see I'm not alone in this real plate thinking.
I'm in the process of moving so I'll have to wait a bit.
I've definitely drawn up my plans though for a somewhat compact version.
Gonna make a welded steel frame for this one too.
Nothing beats the real deal IMO.....at least for now. The way processors gain in strength, I may just eat those words sooner than later.
Yes, the basement. Although, I was looking online and one gentleman had his hanging on the wall with acoustic tiles on it. LOL. Right in the studio. Wonder how that worked out?

Jim P.





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[Tod]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

Although, I was looking online and one gentleman had his hanging on the wall with acoustic tiles on it. LOL. Right in the studio. Wonder how that worked out?

Jim P..

Building a Plate Reverb, heh heh, more than a little ambitious

Do you mean acoustic tiles on it or around it? If he had it on it then he was trying to dampen the plate. Around it he might be trying to shield it from the room noise.

Tod

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by Tod

Building a Plate Reverb, heh heh, more than a little ambitious

Do you mean acoustic tiles on it or around it? If he had it on it then he was trying to dampen the plate. Around it he might be trying to shield it from the room noise.

Tod

Ambitious is a subjective thing regarding a plate. lol.
They don't have to be that complex.
Depends on what you expect from the finished item.
There're a mechanical thing mostly. They don't have to have any electronic components at all except transducer/pickup.
In fact, in my current plans, I don't even bother showing the pickups or transducers.
Those can be changed or moved as needed.
Friends seem to always ask about those first.
The main thing is size, materials selection etc.
There is the issue of tuning the plate. That can get tricky.
There are ways to deal with that though.
It's also a good idea to include some kind of adjustable damper.
No remote control on mine though. Folks have built that in but I don't really need it.

The compact version I'm planning certainly won't have the long tails that a full-sized would but it's a compromise.

I built one many years ago and it worked ok. I had to as I'm a tightwad and couldn't afford the real thing, lol. For a long time now I've been planing a re-dux.

I also forgot to mention, the guy that hung his on the wall in the studio put a picture on it. Something like tiger if I recall. Very decorative, lol. It's been a few years ago.
Yes, acoustic tiles on it.
All I could think of when I first saw it was picking up vibration like crazy mounted up there. He was tight for space and had a small studio in an apartment bedroom. I think it was only a 4x5? Maybe smaller?
Best somewhere off in basement etc. The real ones were huge, heavy things.
You know, as I think about it, it's main purpose for him was not live tracking......but rather as a mixdown efx tool. In that case, the vibration issue would probably be nearly moot?



Jim P.




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[Tod]

Hi Jim,

Heh heh, I still think it's ambitious but then I'm an old fart. I thought about building one back in the mid 70s based on an article I read in an REP magazine. I can't remember the particulars on it (this old brain of mine) but I think it said something about somehow useing a speaker voice coil as a trnsducer and a phonograph cartridge as a pickup (totally unsure about either of those).

but rather as a mixdown efx tool. In that case, the vibration issue would probably be nearly moot?

If it's in your control room won't the speakers bleed into it or are you putting it somewhere else?

Tod

[Sam C]

I like convos! I can coax more from them than my others. SIR for simple needs and Waves IR for more complex verbs.

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi Jim,

Heh heh, I still think it's ambitious but then I'm an old fart. I thought about building one back in the mid 70s based on an article I read in an REP magazine. I can't remember the particulars on it (this old brain of mine) but I think it said something about somehow useing a speaker voice coil as a trnsducer and a phonograph cartridge as a pickup (totally unsure about either of those).



If it's in your control room won't the speakers bleed into it or are you putting it somewhere else?

Tod

Yeah, I guess it would at that! Depending on material of course.
The whole wall hanging idea would never work here, lol.

You're not the only old fart around here.
Late 70's/early 80's. That's when I bought my first recording magazine and saw a picture of a plate. I wanted the real thing so bad I could taste it.
I was about 20? Even though the lexicon was the new thing and those made plates look like antiques - I still wanted one.
If only I could back - I'd do things different.....naw, probably not.lol.

As for parts, there's many parts available one could use nowadays to vibrate the plate and pickup the result.
No need to use a speaker coil anymore as they sell transducers for the job.
Can't remember but I think "Parts Express" had one. I'll have to look again.
I've got a few places I get things like that from.
The whole project is certainly not high on the list for us at the moment as we're planning to move plus I still had a couple smaller items I needed to make first. A ribbon mic is much higher up the chain.

No matter how old I get, I just can't shake the tightwadded-ness off, hahahaha.



Jim P.






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[Sheppola]

I agree with all of the above.The only problem I have with Convos is I can spend so much time trying to find and tweak an IR that I forget what I was looking for<grin>.
I usually end up using my Fave algo verbs close enough too what I'm after.As all my stuff is original,even any covers I may do are done,"My way",I tend to have a sound/idea in my head that I want and use the verb to get that sound in my head rather than marvel at some of the great IRs that I've tried.

It's much like all the possibilities with the Toneport Podfarm Software for tweaking guitars sounds.I've spent hours tweaking and playing with them which is great fun and get the sound I'm looking for only to find I had already got about 1% away from the sound I wanted a couple of weeks ago or within the 1st minute and saved the preset.Doh! :O

YMMV.

[toot]

I use convolution all the time - both as reverb and as a general dsp algorithm. But a good algorithmic reverb is also great to have, the new one from sknote seems amazing, but a bit pricey for me

[ts335]

So one of the hold-overs from my Sonar days is the Perfect Space plugin - a repackaged Voxengo Pristine Space. For a while I never used it but I found some Lexicon impulses that brought it back for me. I have to say these impulses have revived my use of it. Noisevault studio has built some really good impulses for Lexicon, Eventide, etc... So while I don't use things like Notre Dame, I do use the hardware models quiet a bit. The plugin is also quiet "tweakable" (if that is a word).

Guess it's all about what works for you and your music.

<<TS>>

[Tod]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

You're not the only old fart around here.
Late 70's/early 80's. That's when I bought my first recording magazine and saw a picture of a plate.

Heh heh, how about the mid 60s.

No matter how old I get, I just can't shake the tightwadded-ness off, hahahaha.

Actually Jim it's called "doing with what you've got". Anything I could build myself I did it. Control rooms (3 of them), Baffles for separateing instruments (especialy drums), and mic shock mounts (that worked better than any that came with my more expensive mics). I also learned how to redsign some of the circuts in my old tape decks to get better recordings. Heh heh, I call those the good ol' days.

Tod

[audioguytodd]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

Ah-Ha!
I see I'm not alone in this real plate thinking.
I'm in the process of moving so I'll have to wait a bit.
I've definitely drawn up my plans though for a somewhat compact version.
Gonna make a welded steel frame for this one too.
Nothing beats the real deal IMO.....at least for now. The way processors gain in strength, I may just eat those words sooner than later.
Yes, the basement. Although, I was looking online and one gentleman had his hanging on the wall with acoustic tiles on it. LOL. Right in the studio. Wonder how that worked out?

Jim P.
.

Yeah once you get used to having a nice EMT around you tend to get spoiled!

Any plans you wish to share would be greatly appreciated. They are fairy simple things but I have not made one before.

I am lucky that I just bought a new house and it has a fairly large useless closet in the basement. When I saw it I said out loud, "Plate verb!!!!!"

I am also going to put my 4x12 cab in another room down there and run cables up to my control room.

Eventually...

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by audioguytodd

Yeah once you get used to having a nice EMT around you tend to get spoiled!

Any plans you wish to share would be greatly appreciated. They are fairy simple things but I have not made one before.

I am lucky that I just bought a new house and it has a fairly large useless closet in the basement. When I saw it I said out loud, "Plate verb!!!!!"

I am also going to put my 4x12 cab in another room down there and run cables up to my control room.

Eventually...

Plans if you wish. Of course. I'd be glad to post a few pics etc here. I often wing-it as I go though. I haven't settled on size just yet. I do know how I'll be making the frame however and how I plan to gusset the corners as well as the tuning turnbuckles.
Since plates are a rather large doo-dad, that's the last thing the wife needs to see me monkey with prior to moving though. It'll be a bit yet, sigh. I hate moving but this is a good thing so hopefully we're better off in the end.

Btw, if you do get around to installing those two items, make sure you plant the 4x12 somewhere far away! lol.

Congrats on the new place as well.
Cheers.



Jim P.










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[audioguytodd]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

Plans if you wish. Of course. I'd be glad to post a few pics etc here. I often wing-it as I go though. I haven't settled on size just yet. I do know how I'll be making the frame however and how I plan to gusset the corners as well as the tuning turnbuckles.
Since plates are a rather large doo-dad, that's the last thing the wife needs to see me monkey with prior to moving though. It'll be a bit yet, sigh. I hate moving but this is a good thing so hopefully we're better off in the end.

Btw, if you do get around to installing those two items, make sure you plant the 4x12 somewhere far away! lol.

Congrats on the new place as well.
Cheers.



Jim P.
.

Great!! I won't be starting for quite a few months so no big hurry. But any links you may have would help. I have a few but I can't seem to find them right now.

Yeah, the 4x12 will be isolated in another room on a floating floor.

[jnorman34]

i am using SIR with the bricasti M7 IRs put out free by acousticas for my chamber and classical music work. i have also checked out IRs from lex 480L, TC 6000, EMT 250 and 140, which also include a few goodies. i agree none of the large hall type IRs are very useable, but i have found several plate IRs that are very nice. the echo plate from the bricasti is pretty great. the ambience IRs from the bricasti are very effective in adding early reflections. i use L and R stereo IRs for ambience on the individual tracks, and then put a small amount of echo plate on the master buss - workie good.

however, there are some pretty nice algo's out there too now. poor plate is pretty good for free...

[henge]

I've been using Acousticas impulses in Reverberate with great success. Reverberate's ability to modulate the crap out of high quality impulses is pretty cool!
I also tried the Lexicon Pcm 96 Vst. It is fabulous and I'll be purchasing it when I can. So I got a chance to compare a powerful convo against a powerful algo and the algo won hands down. The little extra depth and movement from the Lex made it fit better and also made it easier to get the desired result.
That being said, I thought the convo EMT 250/252 impulses hold up beautifully against similar sounding programs in the Lex.

[Simple Simon]

I have used the Waves IR1 convos for a few years now and really like them; but then, I have spent a lot of time getting to know all the impulses in my library and experimenting with variables on each one (including EQ) so it doesn't generally take me long to find what I need for a particular application. Having said that, there are still often times when I will reach straight for an algo verb if I have a clear "picture" of the sound I am after and no particular impulse comes to mind that will achieve it. It's all horses for courses. To me, it's a bit like the difference between straight samplers and various kinds of additive/subtractive synthesisers - each has its place in meeting different needs at different times.

[rictheobscene]

I have tried the convo verbs, but I prefer the algorithmic ones. Simply, I can get the sound I want from them.

[Magnolius]

I have some free lexicon impulses that I used a lot before, and we also used Altiverb on all the tracks on our latest record with my band. But now I never use it. I have some Nebula presets that I use a lot though, some superb small rooms but also long halls and plates. I just find them to be much richer than normal impulses. They feels more alive. And also, I find many impulses have a harshness to them that is hard to get rid of with EQ. But maybe I've just been using the wrong impulses...

So I have my Nebula presets and a couple of algorithmic reverbs like Classic reverb and Ambiance from Smartelectronix. But if I was to get something new it would definitely be a high quality algorithmic reverb. Like the 2C Aether I hear so much good about.

One way to breath some life in to any reveb is of course a small amount of delay on the FX bus going in to the reverb. Preferably one with some modulation or tape emulation on the repeats.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by henge

I've been using Acousticas impulses in Reverberate with great success. Reverberate's ability to modulate the crap out of high quality impulses is pretty cool!

I can imagine that would make a world of difference. Like I said, I've only used free convo verbs and they only have the most basic features. I have the Acoustica IR's as well and they sound great -- though I remain unimpressed by the halls and other large spaces. The rooms and ambiences are kickass though.

Originally Posted by Magnolius

And also, I find many impulses have a harshness to them that is hard to get rid of with EQ.

That is indeed my experience as well. In fact, EQ'ing them tends to make things worse in some cases, though that might of course be due to me not understanding exactly what needs to be done to fix the problem

Originally Posted by Magnolius

One way to breath some life in to any reveb is of course a small amount of delay on the FX bus going in to the reverb. Preferably one with some modulation or tape emulation on the repeats.

That's an interesting thought. Won't that turn the reverb into a mush though?

[Sound asleep]

i think the problem with convolution reverb is that as you sauid, you can't choose all the parameters. but you can choose quite a few.

the only thing is that you're limited by what samples were taken to make it.

in a room there is not just the characteristic of the room, but also the location of the object making the sound, and where you want to be listening from inside the room.

most cheaper convolution reverbs don't give you any choices to make in these aspects.

but for large spaces i think that's where i prefer convolution over algorithms.

algorithms i find are ok for making small rooms, for making reverbs you don't really notice so much, the ones that are there, but a listener wouldn't call it if they heard it until you turned it off.


but i find concert halls and cathedrals and stuff like that have very distinct sounds that are hard to mimic with algorithms, or at least the ones i've used. and in these cases you are more likely to really want to hear the reverb as part of the effect of your tune, like a choir in a cathedral or something.

altiverb does look really cool though. i think i would use altiverb alot. like if i had altiverb, i'm not sure how much i would use algorithms after that. apparently you can even make your own reverbs with it by sampling your own rooms. or sampling your own whatever the hell to get new interesting sounds. they made one for a vacuum hose, and one in a 747 passenger jet (i think 747 neways)

it's cool, and imagine if people share all the ones they make. wow the options would be endless.

so i guess imo convolution is better overall, but in order for it to be better alot more work needs to go into making it. which means you need to pay for it.

[Magnolius]

Originally Posted by cerendir

That's an interesting thought. Won't that turn the reverb into a mush though?

That depends on the material you are sending to the reverb and the amount you use. As with all techniques there can be no general rules, but on vocals or other non-percussive sounds I think it can work beautifully. I often mix in a delay on the vocal reverb send just low enough that you can't really pick it out. But it still enriches the over all sound of the reverb. Just an easy way to manipulate an impulse reverb. I use classic delay as it has both the tape emulation and high and low pass filtering on the repeats. That way you can also tune the tonal character of the reverb with it.

[JonnyHomes]

Originally Posted by cerendir

Everytime I find some great freebie IR's I'm awed by their richness and detail. And everytime I find myself going back to an algo verb before long, as picking an IR that fits the music is too much work.

I've had a similar experience to this. The IR reverbs seem impressive to me at first but when it really gets down to making the mix work, they don't seem to be right.

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by cerendir

Just curious what everyone's stance on the whole algo/convo thing is.

Algo for me.

[BlackBart]

My project template has a convo and an algo set up. I always have both ready. The convo is never going to get that Lexi sizzle, so adding a bit of an algo verb can be a great thing.

FYI....AudioEase is very aware of this. At NAMM I saw the pre release of Altiverb 7. They have a cool new feature which takes the impulse you're using, and adds a bit of processed algo based on the impulse. This gives the clarity and top end that the convos lack. Sort of a hybrid approach. FYI...it's FINALLY 64bit as well!

[norbury brook]

the full version of Reverberate is 64 bit, only costs $50 and will do true stereo reverbs.It has modulation and delay along with eq etc so you can tweak away merrily.If you have good impulses then it sounds great

If you're after a great plate, i can recommend the new plate 140 that's just been done for nebula, it's amazing best ITB plate I've ever heard.

I use TC VSS3 and DVR2 for my algo reverbs, I am toying with the idea of the new lexicon PCM96 plugin though!!!


MC

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by BlackBart

FYI....AudioEase is very aware of this. At NAMM I saw the pre release of Altiverb 7. They have a cool new feature which takes the impulse you're using, and adds a bit of processed algo based on the impulse. This gives the clarity and top end that the convos lack. Sort of a hybrid approach. FYI...it's FINALLY 64bit as well!

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by lexi fizzle or whatever, but convolution reverbs should be exactly as good as the mics you are using and samples you're taking, excatly as though you, the listener, and the sound source were where the sound was recorded.

now maybe you'd want to tweak a real reverb in order to shape it exactly the way you want, which convolution reverbs lack, but the reverbs should be just like if you mic'd whatever dry instrument your VST or voice or whatever it is inside that room in those positions.

but ya, this means you'd need to have a gazillion samples if you wanted any kind of precision on where you want those things placed, or if you liked the size of one room, but thought it had too much sustain, or idk. giving you the option of modifying or tweaking your convolution reverb, i find is a great thing, but ,maybe not necessarily a means to fix a quality limitation of convolution reverb in general.

but you could be right, idk, i'm not sure what that fizzle you're meaning is exactly.

[martygras]

I would like to make a distinction between I/R's made from "devices" and I/R's made from real acoustic spaces.

I found that the I/R's that I use most are from libraries of real acoustic spaces. Although there are a few Lexicon verbs that are nice, for the most part I feel the acoustic space I/R's are all I could ask for.

ReaVerb is a very powerful plug if you dig deeper into the controls.

It also has a built in deconvolver which gives you the ability to create your own "swept frequency" Impulses.

[BlackBart]

Originally Posted by Sound asleep

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by lexi fizzle or whatever, but convolution reverbs should be exactly as good as the mics you are using and samples you're taking, excatly as though you, the listener, and the sound source were where the sound was recorded.

now maybe you'd want to tweak a real reverb in order to shape it exactly the way you want, which convolution reverbs lack, but the reverbs should be just like if you mic'd whatever dry instrument your VST or voice or whatever it is inside that room in those positions.

but ya, this means you'd need to have a gazillion samples if you wanted any kind of precision on where you want those things placed, or if you liked the size of one room, but thought it had too much sustain, or idk. giving you the option of modifying or tweaking your convolution reverb, i find is a great thing, but ,maybe not necessarily a means to fix a quality limitation of convolution reverb in general.

but you could be right, idk, i'm not sure what that fizzle you're meaning is exactly.

The "sizzle" is the top end brightness available on alog verbs. Convo verbs don't easily get this unless an artificial file is used because all acoustic spaces are affected by hi freq absorption from the air and the walls. Hi freq eq only add noise and distortion. No fabulous mic/preamp is gonna change that.

I'm very excited about the trend of using the impulse as the starting point, then doing processing.

[Sound asleep]

oh, basically artificial reverbs will get you reverb in frequencies you won't get in reality due to the laws of physics. I think this would be more useful in come styles of music more than others. idk, i'd like to hear it though and see.

[mtthw]

convos have a lot of potential for taking sounds and making them sound like they were recorded in this or that studio with this or that set of microphones and speakers and even some other equipment.

So convos are the neatest thing. Already, instead of building a music studio, one can put all of their stuff through convos and it sounds really nice.

I can't comment if its really as good as a studio and mixing and mastering engineers, but it makes great sounds possible for people before they get to the studio level of production.

Convo reverbs are nice, just have to get good ones. Its not convo vs. algo at all, algo Spring reverbs sound really nice, for example, but different from a convo of a concert hall or whatever. Different effects.

[yep]

I kind of hate all reverbs, in a way, and convo verbs especially.

Not because I dislike the sound of reverb, but because they require so much sort of random flipping through presets/settings. Convo is worse simply because the "flipping" process is so much more time-consuming and open-ended.

I have a certain amount of OCD when it comes to audio. My ears and brain burn out fast if I don't keep moving. I don't have any problem with processors that have lots of knobs (I am especially grateful for good compressors that have tons of controls, and the now-standard fully-parametric EQs that allow you adjust practically anything). I like having lots of control, because it allows me to zero in faster on what I want.

But I dislike processors that have a lot of "switches", so to speak. It's not a problem of changing settings, it's a problem of quantitatively re-setting the whole sound of the processor, and then having to re-tweak all the settings. By that time it's hard to tell whether this is an improvement. Moreover, the old ears and brain start getting burned out after a certain amount of time trying to distinguish between a thousand little variations...

I often have that experience with convolution reverbs. I bought Jim Roseberry's Purrfect Space impulses a while back, and they are very good, and are usually my go-to impulses, but who's to say there isn't something better out there? It's usually easier to pull up a good algo reverb, or even a hardware box, and just pick between six or eight obvious "types" and then dial it in.

I really like guitar amp spring reverbs-- one knob: more reverb, or less reverb. If the reverb doesn't sound very good, then use less of it. But most genuine spring reverbs actually do sound pretty good. There is a similar thing with using actual room mics or impromptu "reverb chambers". I think part of it is the nonlinear dynamic and frequency effects of actual mechanical sound, but who knows? Maybe it's just the combination of effort and limitation that forces me to make the most of whatever I'm working with, as opposed to sitting hunched over a computer clicking through a thousand impulses...

I have no objection whatever to the sound quality of convolution reverb, it is often outstanding. But it always feels a bit like using an eq where the only control is a "randomize" button. One of these days I suppose I should sit down and create my own short list of favorite impulses, and maybe I'll get a lot more mileage out of them...