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Old 11-30-2015, 11:06 AM   #1
Colox
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Default Fast SSD disc STILL bogs down Reaper. Advice needed.

I still - after much experimenting - experience serious glitching and CPU bogging down when playing many audio tracks together. It's getting really annoying.

I'm playing back the tracks from an SSD disk, running through UDMA which offers at least 400mb/s read-speed. I've confirmed this in 2 different diagnostic programs.

Still, the bogging down begins when the diskspeed (in Reaper's performance meter) rises above 7-8 mb/s or thereabout. I can play back perhaps 12-15 mono tracks @ 48khz. Beyond that, the stuttering becomes unbearable. And there are no plugins on these audio tracks either. Only processing used is 'SWS Loudness' processing (normalize to -23 LUFS).

I'm not experiencing any other clear performance problems in Reaper. I've been looking around in the setting and tried different variations. Some changes happen, but almost all changes makes things worse. This happens in almost all projects, I should mention. And sometimes I get the feeling that it is a bit dependant on songlocation too; meaning it gets worse in some parts of the song - even though there shouldn't be any more CPU strain there than anywhere else in the song.

I could really use some ideas and tips on where to look or why this may be happening. Using Win8.1 + Reaper 5.04 all x64.

Thanks for any kind of input
/C
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:00 PM   #2
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What makes you suspect the SSD? What happens if you copy the project and the media to another drive and load it from there?
What is your OS? Edit: sorry, just noticed you mentioned Win8.

What interface are you using, and what are the buffer settings? Are you using the ASIO driver? Did you try a larger buffer?

Are you sure that the project is also set to 48kHz?
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
What makes you suspect the SSD? What happens if you copy the project and the media to another drive and load it from there?
What is your OS? Edit: sorry, just noticed you mentioned Win8.

What interface are you using, and what are the buffer settings? Are you using the ASIO driver? Did you try a larger buffer?

Are you sure that the project is also set to 48kHz?
Thanks for chiming in Innuendo.

I'm suspecting the SSD disc basically because I can't find no other explanation for this, and .. I guess because it inspires me to think that the CPU bogs down because the disc can't deliver fast enough.
Also because I'm surprised to see a disc with such great read-speed that never goes above 10mb/s - at least not without so much stuttering that Reaper takes 15 seconds to execute the STOP command after I hit the spacebar. I find that very strange. I would've expected the disc-speed to show occasional peaks of .. don't know .. 30-40 mb/s or so, for very short time periods. But it never does. I got no problems recording to a stereo audio channel while playing back though. Recording comes out as expected.

I'm using the ASIO of my T.C. Electronics Desktop Konnekt 6 @ 512 buffer size and 48K freq. Switching to buffersize 1024 lessens my problem, and 256 worsens it. Hm, makes one wonder ..

I also noticed, when the crackling starts, the RT CPU value (in Reaper's performance view) rises up hugely. From 10-20 to 95-125. When the crackling parts stop, the RT CPU drops hugely again. The crackling starts/stops in different parts of the song, partially due to the number of active audio items, but ... also to something else that I can't really put my finger on. Seems like some sections of song just .. stutters, regardless of amount of realtime activity there *shrug*.

I can't work using buffersize 1024 though. The realtime latency will be so long I'll be able to take a coffebreak between key down and VI note playback.

All my projects are set to 48K. I will try to move the project to a different disc now, a mechanical 7200rpm SATA2, and see what happens.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:04 PM   #4
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Colox, SSD are supposed to be ran in ACHI mode. This allows all software to speak uninterrupted to the drive thru a bus. All my SSD's are running in that mode. UDMA is fine for platter drives, but not SSD's if you want to get the best performance out of them.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:09 PM   #5
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At 12-15 tracks, your drive was never the issue.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:15 PM   #6
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Hmm, that sounds more like a CPU/buffer stuttering to me.

Might be that you have something in your project stressing the CPU that you are not aware of. Try to create a new project, import just the media and see how it goes then.

Or there might be something in your Reaper preferences. To make sure it's not that, try running the project in a portable Reaper installation.

Or there might be some other application running in the background that interferes with audio. Less likely, but worth to check.
Do you see any interesting activity in the Windows Task Manager? In case you need guidance on how to check it, right-click on the task bar, click on "Start Task Manager", and then "View All" or something like that (I don't remember exactly the wording in Win8). Sort the processes by CPU. Also note the overall CPU load.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:28 PM   #7
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Open Reaper's performance meter, right-click to show the "Real-Time CPU" percentage. See if it is pegged during the glitches.

Quote:
I also noticed, when the crackling starts, the RT CPU value (in Reaper's performance view) rises up hugely. From 10-20 to 95-125. When the crackling parts stop, the RT CPU drops hugely again. The crackling starts/stops in different parts of the song, partially due to the number of active audio items, but ... also to something else that I can't really put my finger on. Seems like some sections of song just .. stutters, regardless of amount of realtime activity there *shrug*.
Looks like you already have. That's the audio/hardware thread of which there can only be one - in other words that load can't be spread out across cores, if it only glitches when RT pegs then that's not disk per se unless there were some huge contention issue where the waiting used CPU (like a spinwait) but I doubt that's likely. Is your computer throttling CPU or similar?
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:09 PM   #8
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What operating system are you using and have you optimized it for DAW use?
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:09 PM   #9
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Thank you guys, for this great response and help. Feels real good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johntheson View Post
Colox, SSD are supposed to be ran in ACHI mode. This allows all software to speak uninterrupted to the drive thru a bus. All my SSD's are running in that mode. UDMA is fine for platter drives, but not SSD's if you want to get the best performance out of them.
John Sr.
Aha, hm. Long ago, I recall a performance problem, derived from Windows persisting to put one of my disks into PIO mode. But today, it seems I cannot see exactly what kind of driver mode my audio SSD disk is used as. I remember how to check that in XP/Vista, but I haven't yet figured out how to see this in Windows 8. The device manager is slightly different.

I told you it was in UDMA. Plz forgive my unwitting shortcut. Since the disk wasn't messing up completely, I though the driver mode was OK. In my knowledge world, that was equal to UDMA mode
Is there a convenient way to confirm for sure what driver mode Windows 8 is using the SSD through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Open Reaper's performance meter, right-click to show the "Real-Time CPU" percentage. See if it is pegged during the glitches.
...
Looks like you already have. That's the audio/hardware thread of which there can only be one - in other words that load can't be spread out across cores, if it only glitches when RT pegs then that's not disk per se unless there were some huge contention issue where the waiting used CPU (like a spinwait) but I doubt that's likely. Is your computer throttling CPU or similar?
By "Throttling" I assume you mean the function that some processors - Intel ICore models as I know - uses as sort of a 'turbo' function. I got one of the weaker Intel Core i7 processors, dual core. So yes, I assume I got throttling on. I'm running things in default mode, no overclocking or special settings. My BIOS allows me to turn CPU throttling on/off. Should also mention that I'm running Intel HD graphics; graphics generated by combo of mobo and CPU.

You say the load cannot be spread out across more than 1 core? Does this mean that the load 'should' be spread to more than 1 core but cannot because something is preventing it? Or can the load of reading audio file only be allocated to 1 core, utilizing only 50% of my CPU power?

In my Reaper preferences > General > AdvancedUI/system tweaks .. the "Restrict Reaper to specific CPUs: Enter a list of CPU # delimited by ',' (i.e.:0,1,2,3)" checkbox is unchecked. Found on the same page, the "Do not allow the OS to relocate worker threads to different CPUs" is checked. Perhaps this might be relevant?

And as for "unless there were some huge contention issue", I should've mentioned that I do read audio data for several sample libraries (via Kontakt) from the same SSD disk as the audio data I'm referring to above. I didn't think it's relevant though, because I've made rather large orchestral mockups that used many large instruments groups. The streaming from the disk doesn't choke up when I do that.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja View Post
At 12-15 tracks, your drive was never the issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Might be that you have something in your project stressing the CPU that you are not aware of. Try to create a new project, import just the media and see how it goes then.

Or there might be something in your Reaper preferences. To make sure it's not that, try running the project in a portable Reaper installation.

Or there might be some other application running in the background that interferes with audio. Less likely, but worth to check.
Do you see any interesting activity in the Windows Task Manager? In case you need guidance on how to check it, right-click on the task bar, click on "Start Task Manager", and then "View All" or something like that (I don't remember exactly the wording in Win8). Sort the processes by CPU. Also note the overall CPU load.
I already have imported only the audio media into a blank project. Roughly the same things happen. If I use no virtual instruments and stuff, I can read maybe 4-5 more mono audio tracks simultaneously, than when I use many virtual instruments with the audio. But overall the same type of stuttering seems to happen.

Starting Reaper from a portable config, yeah, let's add that to the "should try" list. However, where can I find a legit portable config of Reaper 5?

One application I very often use alongside Reaper, is Skype. I use it to collaborate in 'almost' real-time with customers (I do music for some of my living). Skype uses the same soundcard. However my soundcard, the TC desktop konnekt 6, can serve 2 drivers of audio at the same time: WDM and ASIO. It's using only 1 clock though, so the frequency has to be the same. That's the only application I can think of which could disturb anything. Like you said, I think it sounds farfetched.

I do have a weird problem with the system, that I'm tampering with solving. The Windows 8 Management Instrumentation Service is messed up. It uses 15-20% of total CPU power even when the computer is idle. I've been trying to solve this for some time. Some people say it's corruption of the service, or perhaps malware of some kind. Unfortunately, all instructions for a solution that I've read online, are above my knowledge level for me to use.
As a temporary workaround, I turn this service off when I'm using Reaper. I will do this until I've either solved the issue, or (sigh) re-installed Windows.
I'm rather certain that my problem is not directly connected to the service malfunctioning or me turning it off. The stuttering problem has been with me longer than the service anomaly.

I do use a pre-setup template, where I got almost all my effects and instruments pre-loaded. Not all of them gets used in all projects, but they are still loaded in there. All projects I'm talking about so far, are made from the same template.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:59 PM   #11
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Have you tried running Latency Monitor? This program reveals a lot...

http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon.

Let it run for a while and see what the report says.



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Old 11-30-2015, 05:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
You say the load cannot be spread out across more than 1 core?
I simply mean that particular thread (the RT CPU thread), which talks to the audio driver can only live on one core. If you max that core's CPU out, you'll get glitches even if the overall CPU (aka all cores) usage is far below 100%. If that is what is happening on your system, that is the cause and you'll need to find why it is so high and if it can be reduced. If CPU throttling is on, maybe that's why or maybe there is some VST using it all or something else etc.
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colox View Post
I also noticed, when the crackling starts, the RT CPU value (in Reaper's performance view) rises up hugely. From 10-20 to 95-125. When the crackling parts stop, the RT CPU drops hugely again. The crackling starts/stops in different parts of the song, partially due to the number of active audio items, but ... also to something else that I can't really put my finger on. Seems like some sections of song just .. stutters, regardless of amount of realtime activity there *shrug*.
Something's wrong with the CPU. I guess it could be flipping from average speed to hyperspeed, or something like that. IIRC there may be BIOS settings involved. Look at speedstepping and power settings, if your BIOS has a setting for these.

Also, what computer and what disk are we talking about?
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:31 PM   #14
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15 24 bit 48k files is only around 2mb/s of data.
Your I/O system is barely at idle with that little. Not the issue.
The scenarios that 'require' SSD performance are studio projects with literally 100's of tracks and plugins using HD sample rates and things like live sound mixing at very low latency while simultaneously multitracking all the inputs.

You mentioned the RT thread pegging.

The possible issues are:
- Connection to the audio interface. Check the physical cables. Verify the driver and any other related app installation.
- A buggy plugin. Go through one by one till you find it.
- Windows hell. Hopefully a Windows user on the forum can help.


You can get a "2nd opinion" on the install for the interface with a media player.

If it's plugin related, there are some workaround available for 3rd party plugins that may save the day. Otherwise you'll just have to find a different plugin that isn't bug riddled (if this turns out to be the issue).


You mentioned you are in fact going to be doing live performance (playing in real time through the system with a VST instrument plugin). In this case, you really need to shake your system down and not just shotgun this! Live sound work requires low latency operation. Understand that not all plugins can be run at such low latency and many USB audio interfaces are too latent over the USB connection to be used for this.

See here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165352
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=164383
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Old 12-01-2015, 03:06 AM   #15
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Reg. WMI consuming high CPU:
- Try scanning for malware and rootkits, for instance with the Emsisoft scanner.
- Run cmd as administrator and enter this command:
Code:
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
- If the above didn't help, do the following:
1) Create a restore point
2) download the following tool:
http://www.tweaking.com/files/setups...repair_aio.zip
Then
3) Go to "Repairs"->"Open Repairs", click "Unselect All", check "Reset Registry Permissions", "Reset Service Permissions", "Remove policies set by infections", "repair WMI", then click "start repairs".

Reg. Skype: it might in fact be the cause. I would suggest to look into this. Maybe you have an option to temporarily disable the WDM driver in your driver's config panel? If not, try to exit Skype and set the default Windows output to the built-in soundcard. Then check whether you still have the same issue.
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:05 AM   #16
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What a response
I must tell you, I'm really glad I'm not having this problem on the Steinberg forum - which I used before. This is really very helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I simply mean that particular thread (the RT CPU thread), which talks to the audio driver can only live on one core. If you max that core's CPU out, you'll get glitches even if the overall CPU (aka all cores) usage is far below 100%. If that is what is happening on your system, that is the cause and you'll need to find why it is so high and if it can be reduced. If CPU throttling is on, maybe that's why or maybe there is some VST using it all or something else etc.
Alright. I'm sorry I don't understand all the way. To me, it sounds like the audio processing can only use one core, meaning far from my CPUs full power. This may be above my knowledge level.

Anyway, I've tried disabling the "speedstepping" - as Intel calls it - in BIOS now. Unless I am being fooled by some temporary condition, turning off Speedstepping yielded an improvement in performance overall. I still got some of the same stuttering happening, but it certainly seems less. And Reaper is more quick and responsive overall. I must thank you for this It also makes my curious as to however I should disable hyperthreading or not. My hunt continues ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Also, what computer and what disk are we talking about?
Computer is "homebuilt". Asus P8Z77 motherboard, Intel core I7 cpu, using Intel HD graphics, and the SSD is Samsung 850 pro 500gb using SATA3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Reg. WMI consuming high CPU:
- Try scanning for malware and rootkits, for instance with the Emsisoft scanner.
- Run cmd as administrator and enter this command:
Code:
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
- If the above didn't help, do the following:
1) Create a restore point
2) download the following tool:
http://www.tweaking.com/files/setups...repair_aio.zip
Then
3) Go to "Repairs"->"Open Repairs", click "Unselect All", check "Reset Registry Permissions", "Reset Service Permissions", "Remove policies set by infections", "repair WMI", then click "start repairs".

Reg. Skype: it might in fact be the cause. I would suggest to look into this. Maybe you have an option to temporarily disable the WDM driver in your driver's config panel? If not, try to exit Skype and set the default Windows output to the built-in soundcard. Then check whether you still have the same issue.
Thank you for explaining this to me.
I'll try your suggestions from the top moving down. I've scanned the system with about 5 different malware scanners and there doesn't seem to be anything suspicious left, besides cookies. Let's see what the Emsisoft one does ...
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
To me, it sounds like the audio processing can only use one core, meaning far from my CPUs full power.
Correct. Some but not all of Reapers processing must live on a single CPU core. That's not a Reaper issue, it's a byproduct of handling audio on a multiprocessor system. Point being, you'll want to make sure that RT thread isn't hitting the limit or you will have glitches.

Quote:
And Reaper is more quick and responsive overall. I must thank you for this
Glad it helped at least some.
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Correct. Some but not all of Reapers processing must live on a single CPU core. That's not a Reaper issue, it's a byproduct of handling audio on a multiprocessor system. Point being, you'll want to make sure that RT thread isn't hitting the limit or you will have glitches.
Right And just to eliminate any potential misunderstanding: "The limit" means RT CPU @ 100%?
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colox View Post
Right And just to eliminate any potential misunderstanding: "The limit" means RT CPU @ 100%?
Yes, at or close to 100% when the glitches occur. You'd likely want to have that performance window up so you can visually confirm if the glitches match the RT CPU hitting the ceiling. This doesn't give the answer on what is causing it but we do want to understand if that is the overall reason because it narrows things down a bit.
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:54 AM   #20
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Colox,

Here's a diagnostic app that might help identify the problem (like a wonky driver, etc)...

http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon.

Another thing you can check... open the Resource Monitor in Windows and see if it says your cores are "parked". If they show as parked, see here:

http://coderbag.com/programming-c/cp...arking-manager.

Download and run the core parking manager.

Have fun. Computers... gotta love 'em!



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Old 12-01-2015, 11:45 AM   #21
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Don't disable hyperthreading. Another thing you could try is updating the chipset driver. Go to your MB manufacturer's site:
https://www.asus.com/support/

Look up your board, click "Drivers&Tools", and find the Intel Chipset driver there. You can also try updating BIOS and the video driver while you're on it.

Not sure any of this may help, but worth a try.
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:37 PM   #22
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I get this problem if resampling is going on. You can tell it is if the little "i" over the item is green. Sometimes you'll get a 48khz file and open it in a 44.1khz project for example.

You could also try using Process Lasso in gaming mode, or this: https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/ as I wrote about in another topic.
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Old 12-01-2015, 10:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colox View Post
Computer is "homebuilt". Asus P8Z77 motherboard, Intel core I7 cpu, using Intel HD graphics, and the SSD is Samsung 850 pro 500gb using SATA3.
Thanks. Unfortunately, Asus P8Z77 is an entire family of mobo's. Anywhow, supposing you aither have the Asus P8Z77 or Asus P8Z77-A, is your BIOS up-to-date?

And you might consider Jhughes' suggestion about the park tool.
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