Old 12-05-2014, 08:57 PM   #81
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Even after all this time, I believe even Kenny still learns something new about the capabilities of reaper. It really is remarkable.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:04 PM   #82
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- The window management : how comes that with a so-called high end professional product, we are still unable to keep the arrangement window at a maximized state when opening a plug-in window ? Yes, I know, the 'always on top' workaround or 'keep the arrangement window unmaximized', 'use workspaces', etc... None of them are satisfying, for different reasons.
I forgot all about this one. I remember being able to save the window layouts in SX2, but 7 Elements is incapable of doing so. Wouldn't be such a problem except that it cannot remember what the last session save view was. So, every time I would open a project the screen window layout would get all jacked up, esp. the mixer. I would always have to spend the first few minutes straightening the screen out and getting the mixer channel widths repaired and resetting the channel width shortcut keys that I'd assigned last session. It would never remember. Or, it would, but they would not work until I pulled up the menu and changed the width that way first. This aggravated me to no end. I started every session being pissed off. Maybe they've fixed it since then. Not a great way to stay motivated and creative, IMO.
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Old 12-05-2014, 10:57 PM   #83
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I forgot all about this one. I remember being able to save the window layouts in SX2, but 7 Elements is incapable of doing so. Wouldn't be such a problem except that it cannot remember what the last session save view was. So, every time I would open a project the screen window layout would get all jacked up, esp. the mixer. I would always have to spend the first few minutes straightening the screen out and getting the mixer channel widths repaired and resetting the channel width shortcut keys that I'd assigned last session. It would never remember. Or, it would, but they would not work until I pulled up the menu and changed the width that way first. This aggravated me to no end. I started every session being pissed off. Maybe they've fixed it since then. Not a great way to stay motivated and creative, IMO.
Oh man, that stuff ticks me off big time. I deal with this at work every morning. I spend about 10 minutes resizing Windows.
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:37 AM   #84
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Fixed in Cubase 8, there are still a few small graphic bugs (something to do with Aero in Windows), but different windows can now be resized without messing up the rest of the windows. You can also have Media Bay and the VSTi rack 'docked' in the arrange area.

Here's a video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBag...ZS7btgzeEEZUlw.

Enjoy.


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Old 12-06-2014, 07:32 AM   #85
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Cubase for midi blah blah blah.. but can Cubase do this?
It's on the front page of Reaper site. Must be important.
:P

now seriously, the only thing I liked about Cubase is the way you could work with the tempo grids and linear tempo display mode, and midi tracks with time base. But latest SWS helps a lot with that.
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Old 12-06-2014, 08:58 AM   #86
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I believe that grantee = guarantee.

This statement is truly false. There are several people on this forum with commercial Reaper licenses (no I'm not one of them).

What does this have to do with anything anyway?


If this statement is false then I stand corrected.

never the less it has to do with is everything.

There are many that believe reaper is ok and gets the job done and that there is no need for reaper to change,

on the other hand some of the main DAWs out there have really got better and have made significant changes to there DAW.

I do believe cubase has advanced so much and some other DAWs is becuase they use the money from the price they charge to invest in there DAW, so investment can only mean a better DAW.

If you can pay a team to refurbish your DAW this can bring some great advantages to the producer and the company, but things like that are not free of course.


I do believe reaper suffers in this area, we have had some updates and so on but nothing innovative, maybe you dont care or it dosent bother you then thats fine theres no problem with that.

Here is the point what if reaper scraped the $60.00 and only sold the $200.00 version im sure you all believe reaper is worth $200.00 and more, I am also sure you would all pay the price for it because reaper is our favorite DAW right, yes right, dont tell me that you think reaper is the top DAW out there but your not willing to pay top money come on guys.

Here is another point that must be addressed reaper must follow other examples by limiting there DAW to only a few weeks then after that if you like it you must pay, this will stop people using reaper for years and years getting all the updates but refusing to pay for the DAW.

if reaper did this because from what I read even from top magazines ( secret mixing) or what not, im sure all of us would agree

So i believe reaper is loosing out in two areas the free download there must be a few £100 000, 0000 being lost there, and reaper should of course up the price to a $200.00 and above. and do away with the give away $60.00.

Here is the solution with the money that they shall reap.........er they should of course invest in a team to refurbish the DAW,

And yes I know you all gonna bash me now ant yer

Of course reaper will never go down that road.
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Old 12-06-2014, 10:20 AM   #87
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So i believe reaper is loosing out in two areas the free download there must be a few £100 000, 0000 being lost there, and reaper should of course up the price to a $200.00 and above. and do away with the give away $60.00.
I doubt very much that the free downloads are costing Cockos billions. Also, since Justin started Cockos after making millions when AOL acquired Nullsoft, I doubt that Cockos is in financial difficulties, or needs better financial advice.
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Old 12-06-2014, 10:27 AM   #88
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Cubase for midi blah blah blah.. but can Cubase do this?
That's kinda what I meant about the daw war cherry picking. Pick one thing and say "Can X do this???" while ignoring the 1001 things X can do that Y can't.

If you make a really complete list of midi "can do's" between Cubase and Reaper, it will be quite unbalanced in favor of Cubase. It is what it is.

I'd say the same about FLStudio, it's potential list of really great midi cherry picks of stuff Reaper can't do is really, really long.

That sort of thing, cherry picking, is never productive. One could live in the Cubase Midi Logical Editor and do nothing else before running out of "can dos" to pimp for Cubase, stuff Reaper would have great difficulty doing if even possible at all.

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Old 12-06-2014, 12:06 PM   #89
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And yes I know you all gonna bash me now ant yer

Of course reaper will never go down that road.
No I ain't gonna bash you now! I think you need to realize that Reaper for whatever else it is... is Justin's creation and where it goes in the future is his decision. Justin is not going for world DAW domination or out to kill ProTools or anyone or anything else. This is taken from the Reaper purchase page (and I think it sums this up very well)...

Quote:
We offer a good product at a fair price.

We don't spend money and effort on marketing, complicated piracy protection, or other things that do not directly improve REAPER and the user experience.

We think the good will generated by playing fair and being responsive to users is more valuable to our business than short-term profits.
Later.
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Old 12-06-2014, 12:46 PM   #90
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^^^ The Proverbial Bottom Line... that. ^^^

It 'aint our daw, it's theirs, and they'll do with it as they please, and if we don't like it, tough cookies.

As it should be imo.

I took the discussion as just an interesting discussion, not trying to push Cockos to do anything they don't want to do.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:25 AM   #91
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The hobbyist stuff of today is literally - miles better - than the pro stuff of 20 years ago, as relates to audio workstations on computers. Honestly. Professional level Cubase VST was like... not even good as Cubase Essentials is now and people were using that in pro studios then. It cost like, $1000 then.

The illusion that keeps the daw industry hamster wheel turning is the idea that we actually "need" all this stuff to make good music. We mostly don't, we mostly just want it.
Well said Mr. Lawrence! Well Said!
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Old 12-07-2014, 08:09 AM   #92
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It's a literal truth. I personally ran a brick and mortar commercial studio in a really nice building downtown here, partnered with 3 of my friends who shared duties and expenses, with Cubase VST 5... which is not even close to what the current Cubase Essentials or whatever is.



The stuff we claim to "need" now we only need because it exists and we've convinced ourselves that we can't live without it. People made great records long before any of it ever existed.

Here's Cubase Elements 7, 48 audio tracks, 64 midi tracks, 24 I/O, basic scoring, more than most people will ever use... $65 in some places, and no dongle. The only reason some look at it as not being not sufficient is because they want everything the full Cubase has, but for very little money. Good luck with that. It won't happen, ever, anywhere, period. This thing has music production features that even Reaper doesn't have. The only bad thing about it is Steiny's bad management practices, a demo that's 2.x gb, which is kinda dumb and makes testing the thing harder than it should be.

Their management is dumber than AVID's in some ways. They should really separate the demo application installer from the demo content installer so people don't have to download for two hours to demo the application. But of course, if you're buying it off the shelf a the local music store that's not a consideration. Take it home and install it.

The real irony is, if Cubase, the full Cubase, didn't exist, and this was a small company just making only that one product for little money, like Mixcraft or Orion or (insert multiple others here), people would view it much differently. It seems not so great - only - because they also sell something better, so it seems like a compromise.



The sales pyschology is this...

1. New kid gets a great product for $80-90, more than he'll need for a very long time.
2. New kid goes on the net and starts hearing why some feature in a $500 product is "necessary to be pro".
3. New kid starts feeling like his daw is shit, and worries more about what he doesn't have than just fully using what he does have.
4. Steinberg gets an upgrade sale and new kid doesn't even know how to use most of the stuff he just paid for, and doesn't even need most of it.
5. New kid returns to the net to join the ranks of those bragging about the cool stuff they own that they probably don't even need.
6. Steiny looks for more duffle bags to stash all the cash in.

Internet forums are the best thing that ever happened to companies like Steiny or Cakewalk and similar. Users market their products better, and more often, than they do. It's not even those companies ever telling potential users that the gotta have the top of the line product to make great music, it's other people doing that for them.

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Old 12-07-2014, 08:35 AM   #93
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Why Cubase over anything else, or anything else over anything else?

There is a simple rule. It's not necessarily the prettiest girls with the best education from the richest families are the best to fuck with (place your fav DAW where you like to fit in there). And you don't have to like your friend's girlfriend at all to believe that she is a great fuck for him.

The other way around, everything is like different brands of musical instruments. By today, all DAWs are like electric guitars by the mean that in the core they share the same foundations. All of them. Still, there are Stratocaster users, Les Paul users, ESP and Ibanez users who play the similar foundations and swear to certain types and dislike others. Feel makes the difference. If it works for you, it is good.

If you start to work in a pro league, efficiency and reliability takes the lead of importance. That's where Reaper came into consideration for me about 2 years ago. I was recording drums in an outside location and my present DAW at the time crapped on me. A week before, a friend gave me a pendrive with a sticker "Try this DAW, you'll love it!" BTW, the friend is a sound designer who worked for Crtytek at the time and at the moment he is making all the sound design work of game Witcher III with Reaper. So, back to the story, instead of losing time with trying to find the DAW issue I just installed what I found on the pendrive, in 5 minutes I set up the drum recording session and - GO! I did not lose time. That's what Reaper keeps doing for me since that: saving time.

About all the DAWs I only start itching when it comes to ProTools. I know that, when I work somewhere where it's installed I can use it to a hight speed but I don't seem to forgive that it alone produced twice as more (often destructive) serious bugs than all the other DAWs altogether, counting from 1999 when I started with SAW Studio and Cool Edit. I don't hate the software itself but I do hate unnecessary workaround and all the extra unpaid nights that I had to spend with rescuing the project just before the deadline.

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Old 12-07-2014, 09:32 AM   #94
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Exactly. From time to time you have certain tasks to solve and if it changes sometimes the tool needs to be changed too. You test new tools. Take considerations. Choose what fits best.

Back in time I worked in broadcast production. The best tool there was Cool Edit and later Audition despite the fact that compared to other DAWs it seriously lacked features that are necessary for, for example, band recording and mixing. On the other hand, it had an ample of specific features as it was an efficient simple .wav editor with precise analyser and FX tools and also a reall simple multi tracker in one that boosted simple everyday broadcast production use.

Many years and some DAWs later I started to work as a freelancer that included orchestration and composing assignments. I switched because Audition was not the tool for that, it needed a bunch of unnecessary workarounds to complete an assignment. At the time, I could not find any DAW with better bundled and quite useful pack of instruments and features like Sonar. To this day, I think it's the best composer's / musicians's DAW around as you can produce tracks from initial idea to mastered product without expandig it with 3rd party tools.

During an another chapter of audio production and me, my assignments turned into producing and recording bands, mixing and mastering. Many cases I started to feel that Sonar stands between me and where I wanted to drive fast (being time efficient is the best friend if you work with bands) so I needed a minimalistic, straight-to-the-point, super reliable and efficient tool that can be fine tuned better to the required workflow and is flexible enough to re-configure if needed. Here I started using Reaper because of these fulfilled requirements and not for its friendly price.

If the profile changes again and I feel that Reaper is between the assignment and me I will start scanning for a better solution change without hesitation.

___edit: the post that I answered between my two posts seems to be missing
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:02 AM   #95
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Let's be perfectly clear and perfectly truthful here...

Full time professional audio engineers, producers, etc, etc, have "requirements", for efficiency and otherwise. That's a fact. Some of that is subjective to the individual's tastes and some of it actually isn't.

The truth is that likely 95%+ of people debating all that stuff on the net not only aren't full time professionals but aren't making any money at all from these tools. And we all know that.

A requirement is a different thing from just wanting something. If you are teaching or training or leasing a studio or anything else you have requirements dictated by the people paying you. If you're not, you don't, you just want something because you want something.

The percentage of people paying for true pro level products who actually don't need them is very, very high and as the economy wavered, the bitching about how pricey some of that stuff is went up on an equal curve.

No way, in 1980, would a guy who just enjoyed making music at home would go out and buy a $1000 audio workstation, unless they just had lots of extra hobby cash, like audiophiles might buy an expensive DAC or speakers or whatever. But now it's pretty common for people who aren't making any money at all in the music industry to own 2-3 different expensive pro audio workstations.

It is what it is. Some guys own 4-5 really nice expensive guitars and never actually play in a band on stage anywhere. They just like having or owning nice things, they don't really need most of it. But that's a small part of why people get up at 6 a.m. and go to work, so they can reward themselves with stuff they probably don't need.

That's one major reason why Reaper is such an attractive product, that it gives you a really good collection of pro level features (even if you don't actually need them, which we all know most don't) without spending lots of money. But no company will - ever - sell you everything that PTHD, Samp, Cubase, Logic, Nuendo etc, etc has for cheap. That won't ever happen... anywhere, ever. Much like you will - never - get anything that is truly on the level of the best professional video editors for $99.

The only real shot at any of that is with open source which never quite fully matches up to the best (top of the line) commercial software.

You can get some of it here and there in affordable products but to get most of it in any one product, you have to pay, a lot, and the list of those things is growing daily as technology evolves.

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Old 12-07-2014, 10:07 AM   #96
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For me the main question is whether Cubase Essential or whatever is as stable and CPU-friendly as Reaper. If yes I would take into consideration to buy Cubase after having read this thread. Cubase for midi and Reaper for audio.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:19 AM   #97
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No. Cubase 7 Elements is no where near as stable as Reaper. CPU is probably the same because it's your plugins that are going to eat that up in either case. Maybe 8 is much better? Definitely 8 claims to have more efficient cpu usage, but is it more stable? Time will tell.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:21 AM   #98
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No. Cubase 7 Elements is no where near as stable as Reaper. CPU is probably the same because it's your plugins that are going to eat that up in either case. Maybe 8 is much better? Definitely 8 claims to have more efficient cpu usage, but is it more stable? Time will tell.
Again, you can't view the world as if everyone on the planet uses VI's or even does what you do... if you even own Elements 7... and have used it for any substantial time period.

Not saying it's stable as Reaper, most likely not, only saying people are making music with it like everything else so your reality is not definitive for the universe.

It's not a contest. People are making good music successfully with everything... there are literally no exceptions.

Honestly, the "cpu efficiency" chant with Reaper gets kinda tiring. That is clearly not the only consideration when buying a daw. PT 7, 8, 9 was probably the least cpu efficient daw on the planet, that turned out hit records daily and made lots of people tons of money.

It's very difficult, on daw forums, to have a truly objective discussion without everything always turning into a contest. I made a ton of money using Cubase and it rarely crashed for me when I used it, despite anonymous people on the net telling me how unstable it was. I certainly could have done the same with Reaper had it existed then.

There is, in today's environment, really no such thing as a bad daw. Only a user who prefers something else that calls something else a bad daw. They all work and they all have some users who are having issues with them, crashing, hanging up, whatever, even Reaper.

At any rate, I do find that if you have a dedicated and well tuned system for audio, and it's not your only computer filled with games and freeware and shareware and torrents and porn and all kinda of other crap, most of these products are usually stable enough not to be a major issue. Vegas crashes often enough, but not so much to annoy me or stop the show. If you're collecting 1000 freeware plugins from who the hell knows who made them, and/or always jumping on every .0 major release because you can't resist, yeah, you might crash more.

The only daw I even own that crashes more than I would expect modern software to crash is MixBus, on Windows. I doubt if it crashes that much on Mac though, Ardour didn't when I ran it on my MacBook. The windows port is a bit shakey. In that light, there is such a thing as a bad port of a good daw. DP8 Windows might be another example of that.

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-07-2014 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:47 AM   #99
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So you are talking only to professionals.
I am pretty sure that the majority uses Reaper, because it´s stable and
you can use it even on low budget PCs (i3 or whatever), try to do that with PT !
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:53 AM   #100
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So you are talking only to professionals.
I am pretty sure that the majority uses Reaper, because it´s stable and
you can use it even on low budget PCs (i3 or whatever), try to do that with PT !
No, I'm talking to everyone, but the conversation crosses all the lines.

Full time professionals who use PT don't stress over that because they're getting $600 and up, to like $2-3k and more in some other cases, for mixing a single song. Only hobbyists worry and brag about such petty things because they aren't making any money from the tools.

Nobody buying a $5k HDX system to make money is going to lose any sleep over a few hundred dollars... or be using a "low budget PC".

So what, a guy can run something else on his 2001 XP system. Why would the other guy even care about that? They don't. They're too busy making money to care.

I care, you care, lots of us care, but we aren't them. They couldn't care less. If they did, all the major studios wouldn't still be running PT.

That's why the discussions go wacky, hobbyists using professional tools talking about stuff that has no actual relevance in a professional setting where the only goal is to make money. Talking about it as if it actually matters to everyone, when it doesn't.

I think we often forget the real purpose of any top of the line audio workstation, or any expensive professional tool really, which is to make money for somebody, even the guy who just does his own music and puts it on iTunes. Guys who score movies for a living don't buy something because it's cool or popular, they buy things that help them get paid. Which is why you probably never see Pyramix or full time Nuendo post users running around the net bragging about it, because they don't care, and the guy scoring the animated movie in the video I posted is probably too busy getting paid to debate silly daw stuff or to try to convince you that DP is better than Reaper or to convert you. He doesn't care.

If all you want to do is distribute your art and you don't care if you get paid or not and you aren't doing anything as a commercial service, you probably don't need a top of the line workstation to do that, use Mixcraft or anything else really. It's not like most people with all of these fantastic professional tools and expensive plugins are actually turning out exceptional music as a result of having all that great stuff, we're mostly not.

Otoh, if you can easily afford it and it doesn't hurt to buy it, buy all the cool shit you can before you die, you only live once and he with the best man cave wins.

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Old 12-07-2014, 06:14 PM   #101
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There are a couple of ways that makes Cubase preferable to Reaper, for me...

1. No marquee selection in Reaper.

When I want to quickly select a group of notes in the midi editor in Reaper, I get a little miffed this simple convention of most other DAWs (Logic, Reason, Cubase) is not present. It doesn't matter if it's the arrangement page, or the midi editor, marquee selection is a basic function throughout Cubase.
Wrong! I just discovered the marquee functions after a little more exploration.

Sorry about that. One less reason I keep Cubase around, I suppose!

As I dig deeper or rather, stumble into different ways of using Reaper, my desire to use other DAWs erodes....
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:24 PM   #102
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Do you mean marquee selection like this?



If so, MIDI editor mouse modifiers may help you to configure it how you like it. I think right drag is by default Select notes/CC. Same thing in (arrange) inline editor.
Yep! That's it! I figured it out and rebuffed my own ignorance.

Also, marquee is available in the arrange area too! Yay! And, DOH!
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:08 PM   #103
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I truly have no desire to put down Reaper or any other DAW software because a particular plugin fails to work in it that is not of it's own making.
I had most of Nomad Factory plugins the Integral Pack, these would not install on my new Computer and Nomad could not help me at the time.
Being seasoned I just waited and last week I tried again and well I have the lot installed to work with when needed again...
Plugin manufacturers get to it when they can if you give them time.
I started with Reaper I think from version 2 or 3 I might have had one blue screen in all that time other than that since the early days my installs have been bullet proof.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:56 AM   #104
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Let's be perfectly clear and perfectly truthful here...
Yeah, let's do that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
But no company will - ever - sell you everything that PTHD, Samp, Cubase, Logic, Nuendo etc, etc has for cheap. That won't ever happen... anywhere, ever.
Why not? The dynamics of software markets have changed at an incredible pace, right from the start, but even more accelerated since the Internet appeared. I don't see any reason why this changing of market dynamics would suddenly stop. We will see even crazier things then what you say won't happen

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The only real shot at any of that is with open source which never quite fully matches up to the best (top of the line) commercial software.
This is simply not true: there are loads of high-end tools that are in fact Open Source. Above that there are Open Source tools that are even the market leader in their field. Apache (web hosting), Eclipse (Java development), CinePaint (movie post processing) are just a few that comes to mind. There are much much more.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:03 AM   #105
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Then for the OP and the rest of us...when do you choose to work in Reaper over Cubase and vice versa?

That may help others decide, even if the decision has been made for me. Maybe one day in the far future I will find a need to go back to Cubase. Or perhaps one of your reasons may persuade me to give 7Elements another try.
1. Reaper for Live Recording, its stable and runs on pretty much anything. AND, no USB stick hanging on the computer like Cubase!
2. Cubase if Im doing a heavy midi project where Im needing to change patches and have that stored in the project. Cubase allows you to add a device and load up a patch template, I can select patches on hardware by name so I dont have to be scrolling through endless patch numbers to find what I want. For example, if I hit Program A 105 StringDays in Cubase the hardware will change to that and display that exact name on the unit.
3. Cubase if I need notation, Reaper doesnt have it, simple
4. Band tracking I can use either
5. Loop based projects, Cubase as it has plenty of content built in to mess with. Same with built in instruments, Reaper is lacking
6. Reaper if Im wanting to get an idea down quickly, hey , it loads faster etc
7. If I need to really customize things, Reaper is the choice
8. If I need crazy routing, Reaper wins

*****I ALWAYS recommend Reaper over Cubase for anyone starting out as its more than enough DAW for most situations. I dont think we need to have every DAW these days. One is plenty and two is more than enough

If I have a client thats super picky, I use StudioOne Pro as I can make tweaks in the Song quickly and update the Master without going threw all the exporting/mastering thing
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:12 PM   #106
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Again, you can't view the world as if everyone on the planet uses VI's or even does what you do... if you even own Elements 7... and have used it for any substantial time period.
Oh, Lawrence, you are wearing me out. I will try to be more clear about when I'm offering my opinion and when I'm stating facts from here on out. Scout's honor. But, you and everyone else can just assume that 99.9% of what I post will be my opinion based on the life experiences I've had up until said post.

@Giano: I apologize for appearing to state a fact. I should not have said "No." Or, at the least I should have started that comment with the words "In my experience..." That is the short correction of my previous comment.

But, just so that there is absolutely zero confusion I will elaborate.

Yes, I own 2 copies of Cubase 7 Elements and one copy of Cubase SX2. We will forget about the SX2 now since it is not relevant except to mark how long I have used Cubase. I had no interim versions of Cubase in between. I used 7Elements for about 6mo or so which is approximately the same amount of time I've been using Reaper.

One copy was on an older Dual Core Windows 7 64 bit system with 4 GBs of RAM using the MOTU 828mkII & MOTU 8Pre via firewire. This machine was a clean windows install. No other use than for recording. It was optimized for DAW use.

The other copy of 7Elements is on a laptop. Quad core, 8GBs, Win7 64bit, optimized for DAW use, but not used strictly for music. It's a personal laptop, so it goes on the web and I do graphic art with Adobe CS5 Design Suite and other work for my real job on it. I only do mixing (no recording) on this laptop with no interface.

Zero warez or whatever you want to call illegal software on either machine. None, nada.

On both installs I had unstable performance and crashes with Cubase 7 Elements, and many other headaches associated with the buggy windows layouts as I've explained above. This is with absolutely NO THIRD PARTY PLUGINS whatsoever. Strictly in the box that 7 Elements set up for me. I ran zero virtual instruments. We tracked live instruments with the MOTU interfaces. And, if I understand correctly, dealing with multitrack audio is about the simplest thing a DAW can do today. This experience is what led me to Reaper in the first place.

On the other hand, in the 6+ months that I've been using Reaper doing the same thing, on the same PCs, I have had nothing but rock solid performance. The only instability I've had has been tracked back to the free 32 bit plugin effects I've used in Reaper64bit. Zero instability with Reaper or it's included ReaPlugs (have hardly used JS).

Reaper loads faster, allows more instances of plugins, has more editing tools, is simpler in regards to track types, has more flexible routing, allows unlimited buses, unlimited tracks, and unlimited inputs/outputs. These are the reasons I prefer Reaper. Oh, and it's $40 less than 7 Elements was, and I can install it on as many machines as I need to without being charged another license fee or requiring a dongle.

So, that's the extent of my experience. You can chalk it up to I'm just some dumb f*ck on the internet that doesn't know how to use a computer, or you can entertain the idea that perhaps what I've learned spending my own cash might have some sort of relevance to other people getting ready to spend their own hard earned cash. Of course, if your a pro making $600 a day out of your studio I imagine that my experience means very little to you.

I hope that this lengthy post has cleared up any notions that I am the end all authority on everything Cubase or Reaper. I'm just a guy trying get his band recorded in a bedroom of a house who's trying to do the best he can at mixing his own record with the tools that he can afford. Which currently is not the full version of Cubase 7 or 8.
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:35 AM   #107
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Oh boy, hope I'm not disappointed by Cubase (its on its way). Doesn't sound like fun if you're having troubles with juts audio.


BTW, did you try 7.5 or was it just Elements 7? I heard 7.5 is fabulous. Then again that might be steiny talk for 'as bug free as it gets'.

I'm a middleweight MIDI user so I can't wait to see how Cubase handles VSTs and how midi sequencing works. I'm going to miss the simple things in Reaper like how light it is and the bootup time and the instant time stretch. I heard they just got Render-in-place and I almost had to laugh in disbelief. That being said they got track versions, built-in melodyne, better quantize, midi lanes (could never figure this out in Reaper), retrospective record and a score editor. The melodyne feature itself has got to be worth $100 easily.

But if things go south you'll find my Cubase copy in the marketplace in a few months. Reaper stays forever.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:10 AM   #108
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Man, I didn't mean to come off as totally anti-Cubase. I'm sure that's how it sounds. If you can afford the full version, it's a great DAW. I never upgraded to the full version from Elements.

I know for a fact that the full version is much improved. Even the windows layouts can be saved (which you could do in SX2 but not Elements) and possibly other workarounds for the window layouts. You don't have the track/buses/input limitations. There are more effects and VSTi's I think (vs Elements), and more were added with the 7.5 upgrade than were in 7.0 which is how they justified charging for it, I believe. Plus the VSTi are usable and the effects sound good to me. Great quality for both.

I have Melodyne Editor. It's fantastic. So, I definitely see an added value if that's bundled. Although, Reaper has ReaPitch, which I have not used yet. I imagine it's nowhere close to Melodyne, but it is in there to get the job done even if it doesn't do as good a job.

From what I saw on Steinberg's website about version 8, I would go for it over 7.5 if you have the cash. If nothing else than for the ASIO Gaurd 2 and improved window layouts. It sounds like they've finally heard people's gripes about the workflow problems that their previous window interface was causing.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:28 AM   #109
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I reviewed the Steinberg site and can't find any mention of Melodyne being bundled with Pro 8. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:33 AM   #110
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I reviewed the Steinberg site and can't find any mention of Melodyne being bundled with Pro 8. Can anyone confirm?
No Melodyne. Cubase has its own product called VariAudio.


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Old 12-09-2014, 10:30 AM   #111
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Oh, Lawrence, you are wearing me out. I will try to be more clear about when I'm offering my opinion and when I'm stating facts from here on out.
Sorry man, I meant no harm.

It's just often the case that we state what happens to us as being a literal truth for everyone when it's good (for any product really) to make that clear. I mean, somewhere here on the forum there's a guy somewhere whose Reaper is crashing left and right and it would maybe be disingenuous for him to suggest that nobody should buy it because he's having issue with it when, as we all know, it works fine for most people as does most everything else out there.

But I fully agree with you, if I bought an app that was always crashing and causing me issues, and I wasn't able to solve that to my satisfaction - I - wouldn't buy it again. But of course that doesn't mean it will do that for everybody else.

So those things really aren't even "opinions", they're more just relating personal experiences. To have a valid opinion of how well any app runs in general you'd kinda have to look at a larger group of people using it and see what's happening there mostly.

But sorry, I meant no harm. I'll try to temper those kinds of comments.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:37 AM   #112
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Oh boy, hope I'm not disappointed by Cubase (its on its way). Doesn't sound like fun if you're having troubles with juts audio.
The reality is that Cubase is a "corporate application", and the implications of that for Reaper users are clear.

You put up with a certain amount of annoyance and/or subjectively annoying things like the dongle or maybe even a certain noticable higher level of buggyness or instability than Reaper, which is a pretty high bar, for the power it brings.

If that doesn't balance out well for you, you won't like it. If it does, you will. Everything is a compromise of some sort, you can never really have it all.

In a perfect world you'd have Reaper's best attributes wrapped up in PT's and Cubase's best attributes.
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Old 12-09-2014, 12:03 PM   #113
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No Melodyne. Cubase has its own product called VariAudio.


Thanks, bluzcat. That is what I thought.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:32 PM   #114
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@ Lawrence, MixBus is crash happy on the Mac BTW, I took it off the desktop here
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:27 AM   #115
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My first impressions on Cubase 7.5(since this IS a cubase thread and all)

Installation was pain free, but the license thing took me a while to figure out with the USB key and the registration and all (salute to cockos in this regard).

I first opened with a template - I just played around and first tried the Quantize. Already had a smile in my face, since it's a ONE BUTTON ACTION (take note cockos). Then dragged the drums clip into the quantize groove thingy and it quantized my bass with the drum groove! Niice! Finally, a program where Quantize is taken seriously.

Then proceeded to record some audio and try the VariAudio (sorry for calling it melodyne earlier ). Pitch corrected my piss-poor singing in a minute or so. <borat> Vernaise</borat> Time to sell my melodyne editor.

Then I tried the track versions - SWEET. This I can see myself using all the time. In Reaper I used to mute unused clips and push them to the end of the project. Here I can just duplicate the version and keep things clean.

Ok, then I tried the time-stretching - it is a bit of a kludge, but worked. Not as easy as Reaper, but I expected that going in. I had to create some tempo track and it was a little clumsy, but I'll dig into this later. Speaking of which - there are a dozen track types.

Then I started exploring the built-in synths - Padshop is pretty nice. The others are meh. The included CMC PD Pad controller is an EXCELLENT add-on. I was surprised by how smooth and responsive the pads are. Once I figure out how to map it correctly, this is going to be a blast. The knob works well with the built-in cubase presets browser, almost giving it a hardware workstation feel, but unfortunately this only works for cubase synths. More on that later.

Things I need to figure out:
-How to add 32-bit VST instruments
-Retrospective record for audio/midi
-Navigation/Zoom using mouse
-Comping
-Easiest way to render a clip (this is a one command action in Reaper).
-Automatic time-stretching of all midi/audio
-Ripple-editing ala reaper.
-Auto-mute the MASTER based on certain dB, like Reaper (can't tell you the number of times this has saved my A$$)
-Auto-save (same as above)
-Bazillion other things, and the shorcuts for the said bazillion things

The menus are DEEP but clean. None of the 'move clip by 1 sample to the left/right' nonsense. The UI is gorgeous (not that I had a problem with Reaper UI with RADO dark theme) and I can fit a TON of tracks in one window. The inspector has useful things like 'Notepad'.

Overall, I'm feeling great about this purchase (haven't installed 8 yet). Just judging by what I've seen (with the included content and all), you get GREAT bang for your buck. Obviously I haven't yet scratched the surface, but if it works as it should with minimal surprises (i.e. crashes), it is going to be a BLAST.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:48 AM   #116
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It sounds like they've finally heard people's gripes about the workflow problems that their previous window interface was causing.
So true - they finally listened, and in typical Steinberg manner they totally did not (want to) get the message.
While partially fixing a few aspects on paper, their cure is far worse than the disease ever was.
Wait till more people get hands-on experience ...
Doesn't mean that C8 is a bad program by any means, the folks designing the actual functionality do a stellar job, unfortunately the folks designing the UI and window system have fully lost touch with reality.
C8 functionality (and maybe looks if you care about these things, I don't) with C6 useability would have made this the best Cubase ever, unfortunately all the goodies must be accessed through a totally unpractical and non-standard UI, making menu bar, project and mixer seperate applications in the taskbar (!), forcing you to use Aero, yet still keeping all the epic fails introduced with C7 (destroyed focus system, stupid hide-and-seek games everywhere and much more).
Let's hope those glorious UI designers win a big design prize and split off to design expensive furniture or fashion, freeing the actual talent @ Steinberg from their lethal embrace ...
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:33 AM   #117
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@ Lawrence, MixBus is crash happy on the Mac BTW, I took it off the desktop here
Ah, ok. It ran better here on my MacBook but I can't say I did much of anything with it approaching real work.

As to Cubase, I have no idea why it draws the responses it does. I suppose it's because they keep delivering great features and many just have to keep repeating why they don't like it. If often baffles me really.

Whenever they release a major update you read all the same stuff from all the same people who are "happy, never looking back, and solid as a rock" but still have to keep finding things wrong with it, some things from many years ago when they haven't even used it in the last 5 years.

It's pretty telling. The reality is clear, some of those doing that are envious of some of Cubase's functions or they wouldn't be doing that, they wouldn't even care.

See Evil Dragon, he very clearly does not give a fraction of a shit.

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Old 12-10-2014, 09:03 AM   #118
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As to Cubase, I have no idea why it draws the responses it does. I suppose it's because they keep delivering great features and many just have to keep repeating why they don't like it. If often baffles me really.
I guess you have not tried to use C8 hands-on yet, or you would not say that. I have it installed here on my PC DAW, spent half a week trying to get that miscreation of a UI to behave, no chance. By pure coincidence all those demo videos are made on Mac ...
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Whenever they release a major update you read all the same stuff from all the same people who are "happy, never looking back, and solid as a rock" but still have to keep finding things wrong with it, some things from many years ago when they haven't even used it in the last 5 years.
It's pretty telling. The reality is clear, some of those doing that are envious of some of Cubase's functions or they wouldn't be doing that, they wouldn't even care.
Don't know who you're talking about, can't be me.
I've been using Cubase exclusively since the eMagic sellout, 12 years ago, faithful but never a blind fan. Reaper is an investion in a plan B for me, for the day when C6.5 finally becomes incompatible.
I own all Cubase versions up to 8, know them inside out, but can't do any serious work on 7.0 and later, mostly because of the broken focus system. I own Reaper and spent hundreds of hours with it, so I guess that makes me qualified to voice an opinion on these programs.
Don't know what Evil Dragon (who I have nothing but respect for, same as for you) has to do with Cubase ...
ymmv, but I stand by my opinion,
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:04 AM   #119
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OK, so let me ask this question......

Why Cubase?
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:29 AM   #120
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OK, so let me ask this question......

Why Cubase?
blatantly obvious answer :
depends on who you ask.
in my case the difference between DAWs is mostly about those "hardcoded" parts of a DAW's workflow that you can't customize, write macros or get addons / plugins for as end user.
Cubase has quite a few very refined and mighty features, and C8 adds some more really useful functions not available elsewhere in this combination.
Unless you're a basic mouse user however, the methods of interacting with the program have been fundamentally messed up ever since C7.
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