Old 03-30-2017, 02:31 AM   #1
Monroy
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Default Is this routing ok?

Hi,

I would like to ask about routing for guitars which looks:

Track_1: Guitar with S-Gear, panned center | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux,

Track_2: Guitar with S-Gear, panned hard left | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux,

Track_3: Guitar with S-Gear, panned hard to right | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux

Track 4: Delay Aux with tape echo | Master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus

Track 5: Guitar Bus with Slate Digitar comps, eq etc | Master send ON

Track: 1,2,3,4 as VCA Slave's (group 1)
Track 5 as VCA Master (group 1)

For me this is ok and all working fine, but what is your opinion?
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:38 AM   #2
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just one question:
are the send levels from each guitars to the delay aux different from the send levels from each guitars to the guitar bus?
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:53 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by metal_priest View Post
just one question:
are the send levels from each guitars to the delay aux different from the send levels from each guitars to the guitar bus?
Well, Guitar tracks 1,2,3 has in I/O two send faders - one to Delay AUX and second to Guitar Bus, so I can set amount of signal to Guitar Bus form each guitar. If I understood your question...
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:57 AM   #4
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the fact is that if you are sending exactly the same signal both to delay and the guitar bus, then you have 3 sends you really don't need..you could just send the guitar bus and use a delay as insert balancing it with the wet/dry pot (or if you're more confortable with, you can send the gtr bus to the delay track and balancing with the fader).
no need for vcas and more easy routing to deal with.

it's different if the levels for the two busses aren't the same, then the routing could be ok
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by metal_priest View Post
you could just send the guitar bus and use a delay as insert balancing it with the wet/dry pot (or if you're more confortable with, you can send the gtr bus to the delay track and balancing with the fader).
Yes, but in that situation how can I set amount signal from each guitar track do Delay?
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:09 AM   #6
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Yes, but in that situation how can I set amount signal from each guitar track do Delay?
that's what i was asking
if you want a different submix to the delay than you needs the 3 sends, otherwise you don't need them
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroy View Post
Hi,

I would like to ask about routing for guitars which looks:

Track_1: Guitar with S-Gear, panned center | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux,

Track_2: Guitar with S-Gear, panned hard left | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux,

Track_3: Guitar with S-Gear, panned hard to right | master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus | send to Delay Aux

Track 4: Delay Aux with tape echo | Master send OFF | send to Guitar Bus

Track 5: Guitar Bus with Slate Digitar comps, eq etc | Master send ON

Track: 1,2,3,4 as VCA Slave's (group 1)
Track 5 as VCA Master (group 1)

For me this is ok and all working fine, but what is your opinion?
Interesting, this routing is a great example of why VCA's can be confusing - because it's wrong.

Because your Bus volume and your VCA are controlled by the same fader, every 1 db of fader movement will cause 2db of adjustment on the group.

A few solutions here, and it all depends on how you want your effects on the group bus to behave.

One option is of course to have separate bus and VCA tracks. This is fine, but managing one track for volume and one track for group FX isn't all that sexy.

if you do not want your delay AUX to be be routed through the Bus FX, you can just send the aux directly to the master and let the Bus fader be a VCA master for the aux (and not the children). I doubt this is at all what you want here in a guitar bus, but it's something to keep in mind for a Vocal bus.

Use a Sub Master / Mix Bus track and route your bus pre-fader, post fx to it instead of the Master. This is really the cleanest way. By making the output of the Bus pre-fader, you avoid double attenuating.

Last edited by James HE; 03-30-2017 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:49 AM   #8
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For me this is ok and all working fine, but what is your opinion?
If it's working for you, my opinion is it's right.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
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Because your Bus volume and your VCA are controlled by the same fader, every 1 db of fader movement will cause 2db of adjustment on the group.
Thanks! Good point. I didn't think about this.

Quote:
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One option is of course to have separate bus and VCA tracks. This is fine, but managing one track for volume and one track for group FX isn't all that sexy.
Exactly. And probably if I make Bus independent from VCA, then if I move down VCA fader, less signal will go to effects in Bus - this will change compressors behavior (e.g treshold).

Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
if you do not want your delay AUX to be be routed through the Bus FX, you can just send the aux directly to the master and let the Bus fader be a VCA master for the aux (and not the children).
I thought about this, but I want to avoid situation that I have guitars in Delay Bus which are DRY - this means I want to have Guitars in Delay Bus AFTER Guitar Bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE View Post
Use a Sub Master / Mix Bus track and route your bus pre-fader, post fx to it instead of the Master. This is really the cleanest way. By making the output of the Bus pre-fader, you avoid double attenuating.
This is good think. I will check this!
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:35 AM   #10
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James is right about your routing.

Just create another track, and use that as a VCA master for the 3 guitar tracks and you should be good to go.

You've got your guitars going to both the guitar bus and the FX bus. Then the FX bus is also going to the guitar bus. This should work fine.

Just add another track for the VCA master and set the 3 guitar tracks up as slaves and it should work good.

Then you can use the guitar bus fader as an overall volume control.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Monroy View Post



I thought about this, but I want to avoid situation that I have guitars in Delay Bus which are DRY - this means I want to have Guitars in Delay Bus AFTER Guitar Bus.


Hmm.. you can't have it both ways. (well not easily) You can't have individual sends from the guitars but have them also go into the bus effects simultaneously.

If the buss effect is something like a comp with a sidechain, you can do a little trickery. You'd need to duplicate all the child tracks. send one set of children to a summing bus, disconnect the master. On the other set of children put an instance of the comp at the end of the FX chain. send the signal of the summing bus into the sidechain of each compressor.

Complex as heck, but if it gets you THE sound, then worth it.

*or I guess you could have some complex routing in the bus track itself with multiple instances of the comp of different channels and send the the aux from there... interesting.

Last edited by James HE; 03-30-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:00 PM   #12
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After few tests I decided to make that routing:

Guitars 1,2,3 (master send OFF) goes to Master Bus.
Master Bus (master send OFF) send signal to Delay Bus
Sub Master track (master send ON) receive signal from Master Bus (pre-fader, post FX) and Delay Bus.

Pros:
- feel better than using VCA
- avoid double attenuating

Cons:
- I'm not able to send signal from individual guitars to Delay Bus.

Last edited by Monroy; 03-30-2017 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroy View Post
Cons:
- I'm not able to send signal from individual guitars to Delay Bus.
In all honesty, I don't have a clue what you're trying to do now Monroy.

So based on your first post, and what it appears you want to do, I have to ask, why are you so afraid of putting the Slate Digitar comps, eq on each of the guitar tracks.

It looks like that would solve all your problems. I do that all the time and it's no big deal.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:42 PM   #14
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I have to ask, why are you so afraid of putting the Slate Digitar comps, eq on each of the guitar tracks.
Well, is that because I'm not a fan putting comps end eq on every steps in mixing guitars. I'm using S-Gear which is very good plugin for home recording and signal from it has good quality. If I need put some eq or comp I'm doing this or in S-Gear makes some settings with impulses, or, if compressor is necessary, put little compression before S-Gear, but very rarely.

I'm using ReaEQ after S-Gear on every guitar track just as correction eq to eliminate e.g. whistling frequencies and LPF & HPF.

Also CPU usage is important, but of course track can be frozen.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Well, is that because I'm not a fan putting comps end eq on every steps in mixing guitars. I'm using S-Gear which is very good plugin for home recording and signal from it has good quality. If I need put some eq or comp I'm doing this or in S-Gear makes some settings with impulses, or, if compressor is necessary, put little compression before S-Gear, but very rarely.

I'm using ReaEQ after S-Gear on every guitar track just as correction eq to eliminate e.g. whistling frequencies and LPF & HPF.

Also CPU usage is important, but of course track can be frozen.
Okay, Monroy, I can see you've got your mind made up, and if your resources are pretty low, I can understand.

Good luck to you, I hope you get it the way you want.
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