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Old 05-08-2017, 05:08 AM   #1
petrofsky
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Default Item snap to grid inaccuracy (Recipe reproduced)

When recording or "render to" there are shifts in item position on grid as shown on pictures. It can be seen at the closest zoom. This happens when project tempo is not default (120 bpm). Item shift depends on bar position and sometimes it's behind the bar, sometimes it's ahead of the bar, and sometimes it's on point. I reproduced it on several computers in newest and older Reaper 5 versions. I attached a gif recipe in zip (it couldn't be compressed to 64 KB).
Tried on:
Macbook Pro Retina 2014
Macbook Air 2013
Mac Pro
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Recording-snap-inaccuracy-1.jpg (20.3 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg Recording-snap-inaccuracy-2.jpg (20.9 KB, 40 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip reaper bug.gif.zip (456.8 KB, 22 views)
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:12 AM   #2
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Looks like relative snap is enabled?
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:16 AM   #3
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Looks like relative snap is enabled?
No, it is off.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:29 AM   #4
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Snap to sample rate then?


I cannot confirm that happening here.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:37 AM   #5
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Snap to sample rate then?


I cannot confirm that happening here.
No, it's snap to beat position. You can recreate it as in gif and you will see it. Sometimes it's on point, just try to do it several times with random bpm positions.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:44 AM   #6
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Recorded items are rounded to the nearest audio sample. This includes MIDI recordings, for playback sync reasons.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:58 AM   #7
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Recorded items are rounded to the nearest audio sample. This includes MIDI recordings, for playback sync reasons.
But these shifts cause timing problems by the end of the project if I don't manually correct the timing of individual recorded or rendered in place items. I haven't seen any other DAW behaving in such way. How can I turn off this rounding?
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Recorded items are rounded to the nearest audio sample. This includes MIDI recordings, for playback sync reasons.
Schwa-there seems to be problems because editing can be intersample.
For eg,playhead will scrub many places between samples->X# numbers of markers can be placed between samples.
General edge editing must be locked to samples right?
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:43 PM   #9
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So does anybody have any suggestions? Can someone please explain why items are slightly off the grid after recording but if draw items manually this doesn't happen? Even if recorded items are rounded to nearest sample for playback sync reasons, after recording it would be logical for items to snap to grid automatically, without having user manually correct each item on the highest zoom resolution.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:54 PM   #10
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Snap settings: Snap to project sample rate (enabled)
Project settings: Force project tempo ... to occur on whole samples (enabled)


should help.

But (as Bri1 said) - there are still some situations that can make the edit cursor to land inbetween whole samples - so watch the edit cursor snapping to samples.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Snap settings: Snap to project sample rate (enabled)
Project settings: Force project tempo ... to occur on whole samples (enabled)


should help.

But (as Bri1 said) - there are still some situations that can make the edit cursor to land inbetween whole samples - so watch the edit cursor snapping to samples.
Thank you for replying, this works even without Snap settings: Snap ... (enabled). However with this setting the project tempo value can't be in whole numbers.
I understand that Reaper is quite a unique piece of software, but why not solve this inconvenient problem? I don't know how it is solved by creators of other DAW's, but ability to choose right tempo and correct snapping to grid of recorded items is an ESSENTIAL basic feature.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
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However with this setting the project tempo value can't be in whole numbers.
That's right. But I don't really care about this.
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:34 AM   #13
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Seemed funny to me too but it had no effect on my work so far.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:00 PM   #14
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I'm getting the same problem. I usually check if everything is line up at the end of my song/project and sometimes the media items is off not line up evenly. Definitely makes me paranoid just cutting 4 bar loops.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:17 AM   #15
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I havent noticed this on any of my projects. Exactly how much of an error are we talking about here, over, say, a three minute project?
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:24 AM   #16
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I havent noticed this on any of my projects. Exactly how much of an error are we talking about here, over, say, a three minute project?
It depends on how much you duplicate/copy incorrect timed item during your project. Cause even small time shifts are summing while duplication. Overall it's better to turn off "Snap media items to nearby media items" for timing problems from one track to not affect others.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rkmusic View Post
I'm getting the same problem. I usually check if everything is line up at the end of my song/project and sometimes the media items is off not line up evenly. Definitely makes me paranoid just cutting 4 bar loops.
Same problem happens to me and these time accuracy checks take time and nerves that I try to save by using custom reaper actions. So until this problem is solved, Reaper workflow efficiency is decreasing visibly. Also a lot of people don't know they have this problem because they don't zoom in and don't bother about it, but sometimes these time shifts on midi cause ghost and sticking notes.
I really hope that Reaper developers won't be indifferent to this. What's the point of all new "cosmic" break-through features if this basic function isn't working?
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrofsky View Post
but sometimes these time shifts on midi cause ghost and sticking notes.
No they don't. At least not over here. Because:

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Recorded items are rounded to the nearest audio sample. This includes MIDI recordings, for playback sync reasons.
Emphasis mine. There's a reason why it works as it works, and it's a good one. Visual discrepancies should be secondary to audio sync, and it's a good thing they are. Snapping everything to sample rate grid is a perfectly normal thing to do, and even more, expected, I would say.


(BTW in case you were not aware, schwa is one of Reaper developers.)
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
No they don't. At least not over here. Because:



Emphasis mine. There's a reason why it works as it works, and it's a good one. Visual discrepancies should be secondary to audio sync, and it's a good thing they are. Snapping everything to sample rate grid is a perfectly normal thing to do, and even more, expected, I would say.


(BTW in case you were not aware, schwa is one of Reaper developers.)
You are talking theoretical stuff and I am facing a real problem with my work. All this is NOT about visualizing, because items that I'm creating with pencil tool instead of recording are perfectly on grid and I have no problem with em. So if you don't have these problems please do your thing and let me express my issues. And as you see I'm not the only one to have this problem.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrofsky View Post
items that I'm creating with pencil tool instead of recording are perfectly on grid
Fair point... thinking about this.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Fair point... thinking about this.
In this gif you can see how the items act while working.
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File Type: zip Reaper.gif.zip (548.2 KB, 16 views)
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:00 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Fair point... thinking about this.
Don’t want to hijack this thread, but maybe this could be related…

Copying/moving regions causes tempo changes and time sigs to lose beat positions, even if timebase=beats, whether using linear or square tempo changes.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByE...1XSmV1N1k/view

Insert empty space moves markers of the grid

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByE...JLWFJTTDQ/view
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:07 AM   #23
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Petro you know what I notice,I'm not sure if it's true or not. If I record with overdub/replace I get those timing issues. If I keep it on audio midi and record usually I don't have to realign everything back on grid. Forgot what the exact name for the record setting.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:38 AM   #24
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Petro you know what I notice,I'm not sure if it's true or not. If I record with overdub/replace I get those timing issues. If I keep it on audio midi and record usually I don't have to realign everything back on grid. Forgot what the exact name for the record setting.
I don't use overdub/replace, I always use record: input (audio or midi). So I don't think it depends on record mode.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:09 PM   #25
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Don’t want to hijack this thread, but maybe this could be related…
You don't want to but you did, what you're talking about is about regions, this is about items. Not quite the same.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
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You don't want to but you did, what you're talking about is about regions, this is about items. Not quite the same.
Stuff gets thrown off the grid, might be related thats all. (and what petrofsky said)
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:18 AM   #27
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I think this comes back to Reaper's super unique ability to have multiple sample rates in various audio items within the same project and also because of reaper's "honesty" in showing where the samples actual are when some DAWs visually round.

That above may not be what is causing your issue but I and many people I know have had various problems with midi/audio timing when copying and pasting a lot and getting drifting because of the above reason (which are not just this issue but similar ones documented elsewhere too).

I don't have a solution but the sample rate tickbox that locks the BPM to the sample rate helps though.

It's really quite a tricky one to solve "properly". I'm just hoping that there's a way that can work like an option that allowed reaper to simulate DAWs like cubase or protools even though it would break some other things maybe?
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:22 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Stuff gets thrown off the grid, might be related thats all. (and what petrofsky said)
One massively important thing to watch out for in the grid settings is that you set media items to only snap at the start/snap offset and also that snapping media items to items on other tracks is off.

Both of those can cause the ends of items to be snapped to and I've found that it's the end of the item that can often end up not on the beats and bars etc and thus can cause issues.

The other one is "snap to grid at any distance" which keeps things clean too.

Might not be why but hopefully that helps
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:51 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
One massively important thing to watch out for in the grid settings is that you set media items to only snap at the start/snap offset and also that snapping media items to items on other tracks is off.

Both of those can cause the ends of items to be snapped to and I've found that it's the end of the item that can often end up not on the beats and bars etc and thus can cause issues.

The other one is "snap to grid at any distance" which keeps things clean too.

Might not be why but hopefully that helps
Thanks for your reply Musicbynumbers!

Yes, I got these settings… and tried every combination under the sun. I'm afraid my post is about confirmed bugs.

Thought there might be a correlation possible (one thing that leads to another).
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:52 AM   #30
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Fair point... thinking about this.
Hey, I'd appreciate if you told me if these issues are going to be solved, since I need it really badly for my work. Just give a little hint please.
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:57 AM   #31
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Judging by the gif you posted, it would appear that you are looking at the items at extreme zoom out setting & in fact the difference per iteration is miniscule.
YES there is a difference, but even accumulated over a hundred bars, I would not have thought the sum would have made a significant (I.e. horribly noticeable) difference to the listener experience.
Once again, can you quantify just how much variance you are seeing on a typical project?
I am perfectly happy to accept that there IS a problem, but sometimes we spend so much time obsessing over perfection that e lose sight of real world situation?

My profuse apologies if you are indeed losing a whole beat every hundred bars or similar, of course!
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:01 AM   #32
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Judging by the gif you posted, it would appear that you are looking at the items at extreme zoom out setting & in fact the difference per iteration is miniscule.
YES there is a difference, but even accumulated over a hundred bars, I would not have thought the sum would have made a significant (I.e. horribly noticeable) difference to the listener experience.
Once again, can you quantify just how much variance you are seeing on a typical project?
I am perfectly happy to accept that there IS a problem, but sometimes we spend so much time obsessing over perfection that e lose sight of real world situation?

My profuse apologies if you are indeed losing a whole beat every hundred bars or similar, of course!
It's crucial when you're working with phase of the signal. Each DAW, including Reaper, has time delay option that counts in milliseconds to align signals between tracks to find point that has better phase position. It's essential in mixing. But if there is no strict position of items on the timeline, this function is not useable. So I have to shift each item to grid. Also in terms of music, you can loose swing when building drum patterns. This issue, especially when rendering midi items in place (because they also have these shifts), makes production process a pain in the ass. Not in all music genres of course, but my job forces me to produce everything.
I know that nobody cares cause few people zoom so closely or they don't record items. But snapping recorded items to samples is not logical while your production is based on grid.
Also, if you're doing sample packs, loops that you rendered in place are not actually at the whole bpm position because they have e.g. 120,746 bpm.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:51 AM   #33
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also as anybody can see the drifts are much bigger than a single sample .. its more in the 100´s
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