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Old 06-06-2008, 01:25 PM   #41
Brennan
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Well I went ahead and updated the wiki with the current help files actually. Having multiple versions of the same data was makin me schizo. I got the most recent versions from this thread and then I spent a little time editing them last night.

Yes, each game pulls up the same menu. A standard help file for the game screen in general would probably be... helpful. I added a really basic popup in the select games screen too. I'm diggin' help popups these days, even if it's just the basic PalmOS viewer (for now.)

I think I know how I'd do game-specific help now, too. What'll be neat is accessing those files from the game select screen before you even start a game.
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Old 06-06-2008, 10:33 PM   #42
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Great, edits read well.

There were a few typos so Ive cleaned them up, on the wiki. yes good to have access to help on individual games before you start (and after!)
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:47 AM   #43
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First game section is up, chess of course.

Takes a lot longer to cover a game than I thought, and Im sure there are more things that need to go in. And I haven't even tried to be too sparse, because I noticed - from Brennan's round of edits - that he tends more towards comprehensive coverage

Anyway, open for comment (or editing!)
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Old 06-08-2008, 02:29 PM   #44
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Lookin' good, Trg. What do you think about moving the Chess section to the Chess page? Or would you rather keep it inline with the rest of the guide? I made a link to the User Guide from the Chess page at least.
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:48 PM   #45
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These "big picture" decisions are best made by you. But it does make sense to just have the info in just one of the two locations, and a link in the other. Unless there is some sort of script that automatically updates the full version in both locations.

I guess there is also a more general question raised by this though -whether you want the web pages to have information above and beyond that which is in the Palm files. And if so how to manage that.

PS I notice you didnt update the 0.26 help files to cover the typos referred to a few posts up. Something for the to-do list

Last edited by trgeoff; 06-08-2008 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:02 AM   #46
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Brennan: With the new builds coming thick and fast, I think its sensible that you do the required minor edits to the Help files, since you have the best idea of what's changed.

Alternatively, you could post a detailed list of all the changes you have made somewhere, and I could work from that, at least that is when I have the spare time
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:03 PM   #47
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Did a fair bit of tightening of the Chess section, and added a table of contents.

I did this manually - I couldnt find any description in the docs on how to automate this?
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:34 PM   #48
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I updated the help files for 0.27t at least I didn't want to mess with 0.26 once it was posted.

I think I do prefer the chess guide to exist in one place. The Chess page can and does link to it, and can be more about the actual game of Chess.

For now I am keeping the help files tracked exactly to the wiki as best I can. I guess the pages will have to diverge at some point but for now it seems helpful to have one single source of the text. As long as that stays useful I guess. If you want to split em off just say the word.

Nice table of contents! I thought maybe you had found a nice command to make it automatically at first. Sorry my wiki is so barebones. I found this plugin for it though: http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PageTableOfContents so I'll try that out.

--- edit ---
Whoa, that thing works great! Just put
Code:
(:toc:)
on the page where you want the Table to appear.

Last edited by Brennan; 06-09-2008 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:00 PM   #49
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yeah i guess we just need to get the help files in sync with the released versions, not the test builds. people who are up to testing wont have any problems with discrepancies.

as far as possible different versions of the help files, i think i would just stick to having identical text on the wiki to what goes on the palm, but just bulk up on the pix. if anything the existing text already tends towards over- rather than under-explaining (i think). not that i consider that a bad thing

if it turns out there is a striking need to put some extra text in (ie that wouldnt go on the palm), maybe it could be hyperlinked out. that way you can still just copy and paste what's in the main block to the Palm help files. That should limit your schizo episodes!

have added in the (:toc code to User Guide, tres bon.

ps maybe reduce the size of the pic in your last msg?
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:14 AM   #50
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An idea for the game list (really need a separate thread for feature/improvement suggestions..)

With long games (over 100 turns) there is now overcrowding on the *bottom* bar. eg "123 Turns" slightly overlaps with "NOT YOUR TURN"

Maybe "NOT YOUR TURN" could be replaced with "NOT TURN" or "THEIR TURN" or "OPPONT TURN"
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:20 PM   #51
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Yeah, a separate thread would be good.

Heh, I avoided the problem (of reformatting the strings) entirely by tightening up the between-character spacing on that font. Plenty of room now.
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:22 PM   #52
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Although it was kind of funny that it would say "SNOT YOUR TURN".
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:35 AM   #53
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checkers now up on wiki!

Some minor changes to chess section too.

your work on the game room fonts makes it look so much more professional. and all the extra buttons are a joy to use. putting the games archive item at the top of the menu is a nice subtle touch too.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:53 PM   #54
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OK, just updated the client with all the wiki help for 0.27. Which is just a wrapup of all the fun UI we've been doing this week. I'll post it soon. Maybe an RC test build first. I'll announce in chat as usual.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:25 PM   #55
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The text of help files on the wiki are meant to be correct for the current released version (v 0.26 - even though I did mistakenly mention 0.27 in the Intro - until the edit I just did now).

Therefore prior to pasting into the newer release they will always need to be updated for changes. With enough warning I can do this, in which case if you can provide a list of what changes you introduce between versions that would be mucho helpo.

I am planning to finish off the help for Boxes tonight my time, which would cover all the main games - have you worked out a way to include these yet? I cant see any of it in 0.27rc

I can also edit the help files at the same time if you like, to be correct for the 0.27 release.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:12 PM   #56
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Boxes help is now up on wiki too.

..and Ive also gone through all the wiki Help files and updated the text to reflect the soon-to-be released v0.27, as far I understand the changes since 0.26 anyway.

a few of the pix there still need to be updated to show the new buttons

Last edited by trgeoff; 06-13-2008 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:56 PM   #57
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Nice job on the guide so far by the way. I like the addition of a tips section for Boxes.

You're right, the guide will need updating for the new version. I hadn't quite considered that. I'll hold off a bit until you give me the all-clear.

Here's the whatsnew.txt for the new version. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Code:
added 'refresh' button in the Games Archive screen
added button to take you directly to game you're already spectating in the Archive
moved # of turns display into colored band in game list (more room for game name)
made it so you can reopen old games you were in that are over and purged
made turn alert beeps repeat 2 more times (in case you miss the first one)
added 'Chat' buttons in Game Room and Game Screen to jump to Chat
added 'recent' button to chat screen that takes you to the most recent game you've opened
added informational popup when you hit send with no text entered
optimized initial chat load. much faster to enter chat room now.
Btw, I noticed the Chess rules part said that the 50-move draw rule is not implemented... but I believe it actually is.

I haven't quite nailed down how game-specific help is going to work just yet (internally). I want them to actually update live from the server if possible. I will probably do that along with some other planned architectural changes that are coming up.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:38 PM   #58
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Good Brennan

I think I had covered all the relevant changes anyway. Good to hear about extra beeps, that option was going to be a request.

Ive changed the 50-move-rule text. My data connection is down at moment, so I cant test it myself. I cant bear to think of all the test builds Im missing out on

re tips, etc:

* I can try to think of extra, interesting info for other games, but was worried about length

* In terms of sequence whats yr feeling as to which section works best up first: game mechanics, as is now, or wifight implementation?

Mechanics makes sense in one way, in that its more basic, but if youre the sort of person who can work that out for yrself, then its a lot to wade thru before you get to the other info. internal hyperlinking would solve this of course

also: the clarity of the wiki text would benefit a lot by a bit of formatting (bold etc). Ive held off on adding that in so far. Is it OK to do so - meaning: are you happy to remove it before inserting it in the Palm version?

good luck with release! Ill be away from PC until Monday evening, but hopefully will be able to check in on my palm..
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:46 PM   #59
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Yeah, you may be right on the tips, since that section will probably grow a lot over time. Maybe they'd do better on the wiki page for the game itself.

I have been copying and pasting the wiki text from a web browser, so if you add bold it should just not appear in the pasted text. So that should work out fine if you want to use it.

re the order of mechanics vs rules... seems like it might be worth putting the rules first, since most wifight games work similarly in the mechanics. So it seems likely that people would be looking for the game rules a little more often than the mechanics of playing. Just guessin.
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Old 06-19-2008, 03:47 AM   #60
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ok Ive changed around the order of mechanics/rules and added some bolding, good to know that you wont have to remove all those pesky ''''s

I just noticed that bit about the spacebar showing latest move- neat, you like giving that s'bar extra tricks!

So there's been five new people since that 1src post. one nice thing (for me) about the 1src crowd is that there's a good representation from europe, which means we may get some more people who arent on N.Am time. Ive already noticed that some of the new people have joined up in the wee American hours.
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:45 PM   #61
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That's a really nice post, Trgeoff. All formatted with images and stuff. I hadn't really realized there were that many features to list either, heh.

More international players is great! Hopefully we can get a 24h party going soon.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:23 AM   #62
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Brennan

Ive just gone through the entire User Guide and updated its text and pix so that everything now is correct for 0.28
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:27 AM   #63
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Hi Basu

Just wondering about the accuracy of the info you are using for deciding the situations for draw by low material

All the sources Ive looked at, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_(c...s_in_all_games
http://www.chessvariants.org/fidelaws.html

give these 4 situations only:

(a) king against king;
(b) king against king with only bishop or knight;
(c) king and bishop against king and bishop, with both bishops on diagonals ****of the same colour***.

You might have been assuming that since K vs K + Knight is a draw, then

K + Knight vs K + Knight

is also a draw, but this is not the case, since the second knight can block the attacked King's mobility such that a checkmate becomes possible. Likewise

for

K + Bishop vs K + Knight

and

K + Bishop vs K + Bishop (when the bishops are on opposite colours)

I always find the Bishop "colours" thing quite intriguing, because its something human players (should!) use a lot in their general strategy (e.g. you might try to swap off your white-square bishop for your opponent's knight if the white squares are clogged with pawns).

But I doubt that computer programs can make such a decision, since I dont think they actually ever "consider" the board as having squares of different colours, just squares.
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:55 PM   #64
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Thanks for the feedback. I went with the bigger list of situations based on what the ICC does: http://www.chessclub.com/help/draw

So from what you're saying/links you posted, checkmate is indeed still possible in those situations. But it also seems likely that it would be very very difficult to actually pull off and for reasons of fun ICC probably went with the bigger list.

Detecting what color of square bishops are on isn't too bad, so that's doable if need be.
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Old 07-22-2008, 11:41 PM   #65
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Aha

Good source! Yes, no doubt the ICC rules are better suited to the wifight situation.

Interestingly, I just looked through the ICC interfaces and there is still nothing mentioned for smartphones, just the web applets etc, which are probably pretty tedious to use, if they work at all.

With regard to B colors, I wasnt looking for any change to wifight, it was just a general observation

btw i second Nithya's call for more info re test builds on the website. I think the About screen should also show the "t" after the version # (like it used to) and also build #, since there are often multiple versions of tests. Its easy to completely miss mention of a new test build in the Chat Room, and then there is no way of knowing if one has the latest build.

Not that we dont enjoy trying to detect the changes
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:12 PM   #66
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Yeah, while I don't want to just follow the ICC blindly it does seem like those extra situations would be pretty difficult. Maybe the docs should mention that they are not impossible checkmates, just improbable?

Apparently there was a PalmOS client for ICC but it doesn't seem to have been updated since PalmOS 3.5 or something... IIRC.

I do try to use the bishops-limited-to-original-color rule when I can. Not so much to determine their worth but more of can-this-guy-ever-get-this-guy.

re test builds, you may notice that the test page now includes the latest version of whatsnew.txt. So assuming I remember to update that you should get a nice list of the changes when you go to update. Unfortunately Blazer might be caching the old page still so you might have to hit refresh if you don't see it.

Oops, forgot to put 't' on the latest builds. Good point. I'll try to remember to add another number after that if things get confusing. Ideally there would be only one test build per version but it never seems to work out like that...
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