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View Poll Results: Post-Fader FX?
Sounds great! 72 97.30%
No way. 2 2.70%
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Old 09-03-2006, 08:46 PM   #1
Billoon
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Default Post fader FX to prevent distortion

The fist mix i did in Reaper sounded great until i put a compressor/limiter on the master fader, because you cant clip internally i had all my levels set too high so when it hit the comp/lim pre-fader, the sound was squashed HARD. Ugghh...digital distortion.

If the comp/lim could be set to post fader this should allow me to run high levels into the master, have it summed then passed to the comp/lim without clipping it.

If i cant do this then i need to prevent any clipping going into the master, which would reduce the benifit of the 64bit engine.

Have i got this right?
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Old 09-03-2006, 08:50 PM   #2
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yes, i need this too!
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:15 PM   #3
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Use the volume (pre-fx) fader envelope (and you can have the control follow it if you set it so to do in the automation button).
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:19 PM   #4
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I still think that right-clicking on a fader should display all the faders for the track, and in the master track too.
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Old 09-03-2006, 10:12 PM   #5
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Or just put the Jesusonic Volume effect ahead of your comp and reduce the volume. Works for me.

Or just select all the tracks and the drag one fader down...they'll all go the same amount.

Scott
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Old 09-03-2006, 11:51 PM   #6
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Thanks for the advice guys,

i tried the volume envelope and it worked but i still think that is defeating the purpose of 64bit, either way i'm reducing the volume to prevent clipping rather than allowing the DAW to do its 64bit, in-the-red but no clipping magic without any help from me.

The advantage is i dont have to worry about clipping, but if i use a volume envelope i still have to find the clipping and reduce the volume to compensate which i wouldnt have to spend time working out if i could simply put a compressor/limiter post-fader.

The Jesusonic volume plugin is very good, its what i'll use for now but id still prefer to use as little plugins as possible - old computer and i feel every time you process audio, you lose something.

Sorry if im being too picky, just seems like an easy solution to save extra hassle at mixdown and a dither should be post-fader.
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:11 AM   #7
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Trouble is, there is NO hardware capable of more than 24 bit support - the laws of thermodynamics ensure that. So at some point you've got to go from the ideal world of internal 64 bit operation to the real world of 24 bits or less.

If you put a limiter on a signal running 64 bits of dynamic range, it's bound to compress it pretty substantially. If you tell it to compress signals above -18dB and it's faced with signals of +100dB, the consequences will indeed be unpleasant. So, one way or another you have to present it with a reasonably normalised input (some would say that for compression to make any sense, especially if using preset values, the input has to be normalised first anyway).

Given Reaper's provision of trim fader, post FX fader, and pre FX fader on all tracks and on the master, I can't really see that there's an issue here at all.
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:38 AM   #8
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Thanks for your patience Art,

The problem is not the lack of fader options but the lack of the option to put FX post fader, not Fader post-FX.

As you say a compressor needs a normalised input, which is what happens at the output of the master fader automatically by truncation, no? If this is correct, it would be the logical place to put a compressor/limiter.

My point is if you have this option no further adjustment of faders or envelopes is required, saving time, cpu cycles and any signal loss due to extra unneccesary processing. You can mix without having to even think about clipping. This to me would be a great time saver.
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Old 09-04-2006, 03:54 PM   #9
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This problem can happen with other level-sensitive effects (exciter-type things, de-essers, gates). Level-sensitive effects tend to assume an operating level somewhere below 0db, regardless of their potential dynamic range, which in the VST world is enormous.

The same thing happens if someone mixes too low, and compensates with master fader gain - compressors, gates, exciters don't work.

It's floating point, so whether 32-bit or 64-bit, it has such a ridiculous dynamic range that you needn't worry about it, wherever you run your levels. The only problem is, once you've set up a whole mix, it's a drag to change them all to get a reasonable master level. The fact that it's a drag on analog gear too doesn't make it any better.

Given that the "mix high and attenuate later" approach is not really necessary in REAPER, it's best to just fix this one (the Jesusonic thing or the master envelope will do just fine for one song). If the "grab all faders and slid" reduces them by an equal number of decibels, it won't mess up your mix, but I don't know if this is how it is computed or not.

But it is something to be aware of if you use level-controlled effects - they aren't tolerant of levels widely outside their normal range.

Shouldn't mastering plugins also be run post-master-fader? Certainly the combination of a master-fader fadeout and dither is only going to work right if the dither is post-fader.
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spon
Certainly the combination of a master-fader fadeout and dither is only going to work right if the dither is post-fader.
exactly! good example.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
The problem is not the lack of fader options but the lack of the option to put FX post fader, not Fader post-FX.
I can't see the difference between having effects post fader or having the fader pre FX. If you use the pre FX fader provided, you've got what you want.

Faders do not truncate, they operate (I believe) by multiplication and in Reaper that's in 64 bits, so whatever happens to the last bit is neither here nor there.

Dither should not be applied pre-fader. So use post-fader FX and have the dither applied as the last effect. Ensure the master trim fader (which is always post FX) is set to its default position.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:46 PM   #12
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that's right, but an option to set fx to post-fader would be a great addition and save us from using the pre-fx volume envelope.

just add a small devider below the effects in the fx-browser -> dragging an fx to this section (below the devider) would then set them post-fader. (similar to the channel-strip in cubase/nuendo, where the last 2 slots are for post-fader fx)
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:34 PM   #13
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I've said all along that ReaComp should have an input level slider....
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:44 PM   #14
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but we need a 'solution' for 3rd party fx too, not only reacomp (which doesn't have a dither onboard) ...
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:59 PM   #15
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Use the JS or 3rd party volume control effect at the start of the chain.

If you always want to have master FX post fader, set up your default project that way perhaps with the likely FX already in place.

I think what you would like is to have one fader but place the FX in different places in respect of it. The design at the moment is intended to be more flexible, that is, having three faders, one a non-automatable post FX trim, the other two being automatable and located pre and post FX respectively. All three can be in operation at once, but only one is shown on the interface at a time.

Changing the relationship between the three faders and the FX would be pretty fundamental, but IMHO providing a single display of the three faders by a right click on the displayed fader would be less so and might relieve some of the confusion about their operation.

One could argue that the trim control should have been set pre FX in the first place (more like a physical mixer) rather than post FX as at present. Or maybe that should be a configuration option.

Last edited by Art Evans; 09-04-2006 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spon
Certainly the combination of a master-fader fadeout and dither is only going to work right if the dither is post-fader.
Exactly...some people arent interested in dithering, some are, like Bob Katz. see here...

"Katz's explanations of the requirement for dither in any digital system and how dithering works are simple to understand, but technically accurate."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct0...es/bobkatz.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
that's right, but an option to set fx to post-fader would be a great addition and save us from using the pre-fx volume envelope.

just add a small devider below the effects in the fx-browser -> dragging an fx to this section (below the devider) would then set them post-fader. (similar to the channel-strip in cubase/nuendo, where the last 2 slots are for post-fader fx).
Perfect...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Or maybe that should be a configuration option.
Agreed..but the only plugins i want post-fader are limiter, compressor, eq and dither (like on a mixing desk), and only on the master fader , but i still want to put an exciter, widener etc. pre-fader on the master channel.

eg.
Final mix>exciter>masterfader>compress/eq/limit/dither>render

If this option is only added post-master fader, it shouldnt affect the other volume envelopes before the master fader.

Cheers
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:25 AM   #17
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Ah, I see, you want both - well, the only way at present is to insert a fader into the FX chain - as someone pointed out, the JS volume one is handy, and it provides input and output metering - though I'd suggest raising the "max volume" slider to a large figure - I'm slightly suspicious of what it actually does.

As far as I can see that would be functionally identical to your proposal.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:49 AM   #18
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<dream mode on>
I think we should have a seperator line in the FX browser. Everything before (above) that seperator would be Pre-Fader, everything after that would be Post.
<dream mode off>

But heres one thing I'd really like to see...
...gonna make a seperate thread

Last edited by LOSER; 09-05-2006 at 05:51 AM.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
[...]though I'd suggest raising the "max volume" slider to a large figure - I'm slightly suspicious of what it actually does.
It's actually a hard brick wall limiter! So be warned!

Sorry for double post, please don't ban me
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Ah, I see, you want both
Just on the master fader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
well, the only way at present is to insert a fader into the FX chain - as someone pointed out, the JS volume one is handy, and it provides input and output metering - though I'd suggest raising the "max volume" slider to a large figure
but i'd need to set the "max volume" slider to 0db to prevent the limiter hard clipping like i described in my first post, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
- I'm slightly suspicious of what it actually does.
Me too, thats why i'd rather let Reaper do its 64bit no clipping 'magic' and not add unnecassary extra plugin processing (and consequent signal degradation, however minor).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
As far as I can see that would be functionally identical to your proposal.
Only if the "max volume" slider be automated so i can set up a fade out with the dither being post-"max volume" slider.

Is this possible?


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER
It's actually a hard brick wall limiter! So be warned!
Well if thats right, then it'll clip hard, which is what im trying to avoid.

Last edited by Billoon; 09-05-2006 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:30 AM   #21
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Set the JS volume max volume slider to max, so it does nothing, then set the adjustment appropriately (check it at the loudest part of your project). Automate the adjustment down to -150dB to fade out. Drag the whole effect up/down in the list to set the pre/post fader point.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:56 AM   #22
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Amusing experiment - try putting two instances of the JS Volume utility one after the other. Set one to 140dB gain (with max volume at 150dB) and the other at -140dB gain. Play. No distortion. Then reverse them - same result.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:13 AM   #23
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Thanks Art, that'll do it perfectly.

I really appreciate the time youve spent helping me, youre a very patient person, it says a lot about the Reaper community. I feel like i should be buying you a drink or something. OK, i'm off too do that mix again.

Cheers.
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
If you always want to have master FX post fader, set up your default project that way perhaps with the likely FX already in place.
Sounds like a great idea. How?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
I think what you would like is to have one fader but place the FX in different places in respect of it. The design at the moment is intended to be more flexible, that is, having three faders, one a non-automatable post FX trim, the other two being automatable and located pre and post FX respectively. All three can be in operation at once, but only one is shown on the interface at a time.
The master has three level controls, but the fader is, as far as I can tell, attached to the "post-fx" level in the master only. If the master fader (the GUI thingy) could be connected to EITHER the pre-FX master volume or the post-FX master volume, that would take care of this issue. Configuration option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
One could argue that the trim control should have been set pre FX in the first place (more like a physical mixer) rather than post FX as at present. Or maybe that should be a configuration option.
Usually masters don't have trims. Everything in the individual channels works correctly - FX are inserted where they should, and the pre/post controls work sensibly. It's just the master that's an issue.

Another approach would be to say that the master FX insert is in the same place as it would be in a physical mixer - leave it there. BUT, in the physical world, you can also run your mixer output, post everything, into another FX box. Perhaps REAPER needs that insert point also?
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Old 09-05-2006, 03:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Sounds like a great idea. How?
Preferences > Project > first option there.
Quote:
The master has three level controls, but the fader is, as far as I can tell, attached to the "post-fx" level in the master only. If the master fader (the GUI thingy) could be connected to EITHER the pre-FX master volume or the post-FX master volume, that would take care of this issue. Configuration option?
The GUI fader can be connected to the pre or post FX automatable faders by arming the relevant envelope and setting the automation button in the transport to something other than "Read".
Quote:
in the physical world, you can also run your mixer output, post everything, into another FX box. Perhaps REAPER needs that insert point also?
You could route all tracks to a sub master if you want (quick to do with a folder track above everything else), do what you want on that track, then feed that to the master.
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:04 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Preferences > The GUI fader can be connected to the pre or post FX automatable faders by arming the relevant envelope and setting the automation button in the transport to something other than "Read".
umm, why couldn't he just do this in the original case - just move the master fader to the volume control before his limiter... that would have solved everything with none of this other stuff. It was exactly what he was asking for - a master volume control that worked pre-master-FX.

I never tried automating master volume - didn't even see these settings before.

all it takes to fix his mix:
Set master volume to 0db. Set the track automation for the master track to Volume PreFX, visible, armed. Set transport automation to Automation:Touch

voila - master volume is now before master FX, just as he wanted.
Tested with 4 tracks at +60db, master at -60db, Blockfish in master. It works. It works a little wierd, because you're overwriting automation, and it remembers the old points. If there were an "erase and write" automation mode, it would be ideal.

What a waste of time - all because REAPER already did what he wanted and we didn't understand it, or how to explain it - ACK!!! How often does this happen - that REAPER can, in fact, do something, but no one knows quite how yet?
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spon
umm, why couldn't he just do this in the original case - just move the master fader to the volume control before his limiter... that would have solved everything with none of this other stuff. It was exactly what he was asking for - a master volume control that worked pre-master-FX.
Hi Spon,

Not quite..i need some effect pre-fader and some post-fader , so Arts solution of using to JS Volume plugin as a automatable 'dummy' master with some FX before it and my limiter after it is the only real working solution i can see.

Cheers.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:45 PM   #28
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Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread closely in my learning of Reaper since I got it a few days ago and I'd like to ask a question about this pre/post master fader fx thing:

What sort of plugins should go PRE and what sort POST? (pre/post the JS volume control I mean obviously)

I guess the Psycho dither plug ought to go POST as it seems to be very sensitive to anything "in the red" (still not sure what "the red" represents?) and shuts off.

Thanks

Mike
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Old 12-31-2007, 02:48 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefloutier View Post
Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread closely in my learning of Reaper since I got it a few days ago and I'd like to ask a question about this pre/post master fader fx thing:

What sort of plugins should go PRE and what sort POST? (pre/post the JS volume control I mean obviously)

I guess the Psycho dither plug ought to go POST as it seems to be very sensitive to anything "in the red" (still not sure what "the red" represents?) and shuts off.

Thanks

Mike
Generally limiter and dither, because the limiter is the last fx in chain (normally) brings it up to end volume, prevents nasty digital clipping etc.. and after that the dither, it reduces the word length to the disired bit depth and there shouldn't be any volume changes nor other changes (in anyway) after dithering, because that will pretty much undo the effect of dither and the bit reduction and throw the signal right back into the 64bit floating point domain. That's why we need this so badly, because that way you could just make stuff louder/quiter by fudging with the master fader (because the volume change would then be before the dither and limiter and everything would be still so fine and good, etc...) instead of going into the fx chain and tweak a volume plug-in .

.. But I heard its never coming, because adding post-fader fx on the master would require a total rewrite of the whole audio engine. So it CAN'T be done. It's impossible! [/poking Justin]
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Old 12-31-2007, 02:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
But I heard its never coming, because adding post-fader fx on the master would require a total rewrite of the whole audio engine. So it CAN'T be done. It's impossible!
?

can't believe this.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
<dream mode on>
I think we should have a seperator line in the FX browser. Everything before (above) that seperator would be Pre-Fader, everything after that would be Post.
<dream mode off>

But heres one thing I'd really like to see...
...gonna make a seperate thread

+10

I would really like to see like. In Cubase I always like my limiter last in the chain post fader. I usually then use the master fader to get the levels in the K12 ballpark. I'm using a work around, but it would be nice...
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Old 03-09-2008, 02:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
But I heard its never coming, because adding post-fader fx on the master would require a total rewrite of the whole audio engine. So it CAN'T be done. It's impossible! [/poking Justin]
is this true justin? is it that complicated?
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:52 AM   #33
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is this true justin? is it that complicated?
I don't think it is THAT complicated. It of course can be done, I just said the above, because I thought doing the impossible would be an incentive for him. Anyway, WE WANT POST FADER FX!
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:05 AM   #34
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I have a question. Do the pre-FX Vol (and pan) envelopes on the master buss have the same effect on dithering as the master fader itself?

thanks

.t
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
I have a question. Do the pre-FX Vol (and pan) envelopes on the master buss have the same effect on dithering as the master fader itself?

thanks

.t
It shouldnt. The master fader is only a problem for dithering cause its post-fx, anything that is pre-fx should be fine.

If you want to be 100% sure, render the track as 64bit without dither then dither that track in a new project.
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:54 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
<dream mode on>
I think we should have a seperator line in the FX browser. Everything before (above) that seperator would be Pre-Fader, everything after that would be Post.
<dream mode off>
Keep on dreaming! Hope dies last!
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:33 PM   #37
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Default Pre fx sends, but after synth

Because synths are loaded in fx chains, when you send audio pre fx on an instrument track, you get silence.

Could we have some way of sending audio pre fx, but after the synth has made some noise?
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:47 PM   #38
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You could use "Pre Fader (Post FX)".




-Data
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:11 PM   #39
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Well I think shakey wants to send it pre-FX and fader, but after the instrument.

It would be nice if Reaper could distinguish between instruments and effects for things like bypassing and sending and so on.

But as a workaround for now (which might even organize things a bit better) you could have your track with the instrument, and have it send to two separate tracks with different FX.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:13 PM   #40
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I know there are workarounds, I'm just stating that it is an issue anyway
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