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Old 11-03-2016, 03:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by DaveKeehl View Post
[*]a master mix (limited to -0.5 dB and at -12 LUFS): MP3 320kps

Not comfortable with -12 LUFUS at all with this tune.

Parts get clipped in order to achieve that and be limited to -0.5db. Not nice when the best we can really use is event horizon JS which is a really nice clipper, but.... )

I think -14 is the better target (or even -16) - especially since we are encoding to mp3.

Id just submit mine at -14 LUFS, but I wouldn't want to have an unfair advantage of having an unclipped and exciting and dynamic mix

I mean it's not a mastering contest - let's give a bit more leeway.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:20 PM   #42
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Is there a real (graphical) phase meter anywhere in JS?

My mix is going to be pretty "open" dynamically. Won't be using very much compression at all. The tracks are pretty well done although I haven't taken it into the studio yet and a few tracks sound kinda thin in my phones. Initial observations (again, listening in phones, MDR 7506's) ....

- Vocal sounds a little harsh to me. Just a bit.
- Drums need gating (kick and snare)
- Overheads are ok which makes the hat and cymbal tracks maybe optional, we'll see.
- Amp bass sounds way better than the DI bass, to me.

The only subjectively wasteful tracks space wise are the toms and cymbals. Being that the drums are obviously sampler tracks (no ambiance in the spaces that I can see like you'd get with mics) those could have been trimmed initially but it probably wouldn't have made a ton of difference in the archive size.

Mine will likely fall apart on the guitars, not my wheelhouse the pop/rock guitar thing.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by James HE View Post
Not comfortable with -12 LUFUS at all with this tune.

Parts get clipped in order to achieve that and be limited to -0.5db. Not nice when the best we can really use is event horizon JS which is a really nice clipper, but.... )

I think -14 is the better target (or even -16) - especially since we are encoding to mp3.

Id just submit mine at -14 LUFS, but I wouldn't want to have an unfair advantage of having an unclipped and exciting and dynamic mix

I mean it's not a mastering contest - let's give a bit more leeway.
There is also JS: Master limiter
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:21 PM   #44
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Is there a real (graphical) phase meter anywhere in JS?
What is a Phase meter ?
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:30 PM   #45
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What is a Phase meter ?
Like the right section below showing channel correlation. I typically use those on busses and on the master when I mix, to get a visual feel for mono compatibility all along the way.

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Old 11-03-2016, 03:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by James HE View Post
Not comfortable with -12 LUFUS at all with this tune.

Parts get clipped in order to achieve that and be limited to -0.5db. Not nice when the best we can really use is event horizon JS which is a really nice clipper, but.... )

I think -14 is the better target (or even -16) - especially since we are encoding to mp3.

Id just submit mine at -14 LUFS, but I wouldn't want to have an unfair advantage of having an unclipped and exciting and dynamic mix

I mean it's not a mastering contest - let's give a bit more leeway.
Heh heh, you got a mix ready yet James?

I'm getting close, but I don't know the rules about submitting, if I submit an mp3 now or soon, will I be able to improve it and post more mp3s? I have a feeling people are waiting to see what others have done before they post theirs, so I thought if I, or others, post their mixes as they go it would encourage other to do the same.

I really screwed up my first mix, I was involved with a thread about using a monitor EQ for mixing with headphones, and in the process I loaded an EQ into my monitor FX that I came up with for my ear phones. Yeap, I forgot and mixed the whole thing before I realized what I'd done.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:44 PM   #47
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Like the right section below showing channel correlation. I typically use those on busses and on the master when I mix, to get a visual feel for mono compatibility all along the way.

JS: Goniometer
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Like the right section below showing channel correlation. I typically use those on busses and on the master when I mix, to get a visual feel for mono compatibility all along the way.
The JS version is the "goniometer" (loser/gfxGoniometer). I modified it slightly to add a configurable alpha and a visual amplification. Attached is my modified version.

Looking at it now, my version has a correlation meter and the 5.27 default one seems not to; i didn't add that, so i'm not sure what's up with that. Maybe the latest edition removed it or something?
Attached Files
File Type: txt goniometer_mod.txt (2.5 KB, 29 views)
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:53 PM   #49
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As I suggested before, I don't see the reason to limit the analyzer to Reaper. Think of it this way, my analyzer lives completely outside the DAW and audio passes through it on the way to the soundcard.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:55 PM   #50
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For sure. I was just wondering if there was one in there anywhere... and of course as relates to "learning", seeing them staged in the mix project the way a person might could be useful.

Thanks.

P.S. I converted all 25 tracks to 24-bit FLAC (compression = 8) just to see the difference and they're 304 mb... a good reduction.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:58 PM   #51
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Quote:
- Vocal sounds a little harsh to me. Just a bit.
- Drums need gating (kick and snare)
- Overheads are ok which makes the hat and cymbal tracks maybe optional, we'll see.
- Amp bass sounds way better than the DI bass, to me.
I think you should save this for post contest, could be wrong though.
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Old 11-03-2016, 03:59 PM   #52
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For sure. I was just wondering if there was one in there anywhere... and of course as relates to "learning", seeing them staged in the mix project the way a person might could be useful.

Thanks.
Yea as the others mentioned there should be a few analysis plugs in there. I suppose I'm probably 65% done, down to some creative choices, automation and fixing a few things that bug me. I could call it done now but having almost three more weeks, I know I'll touch it a good bit between now and then. I have loads of observations and comments but trying to hold back until we are done as to not inappropriately influence (for better or worse).
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:05 PM   #53
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Mine will likely fall apart on the guitars, not my wheelhouse the pop/rock guitar thing.
I'm sure you'll do fine. I should note, since we don't have to actually answer to a band or producer; if you find a part you think isn't needed or needs edited etc, I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever. IOW, I don't see a problem with making a few musical decisions if needed.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:10 PM   #54
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I'm sure you'll do fine. I should note, since we don't have to actually answer to a band or producer; if you find a part you think isn't needed or needs edited etc, I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever. IOW, I don't see a problem with making a few musical decisions if needed.

For sure. One main reason why I started avoiding these mix contests on the net is because (99% of the time) it's all the same genres, rock or pop rock. Maybe one day someone will post a nice R&B ballad or a Jazz song or a funk / pop song or something... although this one has a little funk vibe.

But you know the old saying... "When in Rome..."
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:29 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
There is also JS: Master limiter
The best limiter in the universe isn't going to change that fact that I have to alter the dynamics of the mix such that the end lacks the impact that I want.

I have a modded version of the Master Limiter that I think is really really good on some material. It doesn't fit here though.

There is a reason that on the youtube video there for the studio version that it fades out the ending...
the mixer or mastering engineer blew it

we can do better.

-12 LUFS just doesn't feel appropriate for the contest in any way.`What if next month we get a soulful and sparse song to mix? We have to inappropriately smash the %^&* out of it?

It's an arbitrary number here that limits creativity.

Having some sort of loudness target so that everyone is on basically the same playing field is great. -12 LUFS is just way to fucking hot in my opinion. -14 is a great spot - I'm likely biased there cause that's what I Master my own productions to, but anyways...

Like I said, it's a mixing, not a mastering contest.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:35 PM   #56
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For sure. One main reason why I started avoiding these mix contests on the net is because (99% of the time) it's all the same genres, rock or pop rock. Maybe one day someone will post a nice R&B ballad or a Jazz song or a funk / pop song or something... although this one has a little funk vibe.

But you know the old saying... "When in Rome..."
I understand on the genre thing. This one's a genre I'm familiar with (roughly) but at the same time, I'm taking the approach that whatever happens to hit me or appeals to my senses, I'll likely try. We'll see, I'm somewhat happy now but that could easily change.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:39 PM   #57
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-12 LUFS just doesn't feel appropriate for the contest in any way.`What if next month we get a soulful and sparse song to mix? We have to inappropriately smash the %^&* out of it?
Your post got me to measuring. I'm not good with knowing how to limit to that spec but if my guess testing is correct, I 1000% agree with you.

I'd probably be concerned about continuing if I had to crush/destroy the dynamics that much; so I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Edit: I think I'm probably wrong, just so I can confirm, how do I tell with Tone Boosters EBU Loudness meter?

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Old 11-03-2016, 04:52 PM   #58
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Your post got me to measuring. I'm not good with knowing how to limit to that spec but if my guess testing is correct, I 1000% agree with you.

I'd probably be concerned about continuing if I had to crush/destroy the dynamics that much; so I'm hoping I'm wrong.
you are not wrong.

-12 LUFS is absurd - it's loud even for this track. add in mp3 conversion and it's likely disaster (I haven't even done any test conversions yet - but I just know)

My mix really isn't that dynamic - I mean the material isn't - not by my standards at least. But I do want that last little bit of elbow room to push that ending a bit. It's just not there at -12 LUFUS.

-14 would be fine imo - but if we get any other genre to mix other than rock, -16 is probably safer.

balance the mixes by giving a target - but don't make that target un-reachable.


* ok yeah, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here I think for this particular mix -12 is pretty close to reasonable and is obtainable - I'm just concerned because -12 seems like a bad precedent for these contests.

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Old 11-03-2016, 05:02 PM   #59
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I say forget loudness and just go for a "good" or a decent mix.

I assume the guy assembling the mixes will have to level match them anyway to make for reasonable a,b,c,d comparisons ... so why even get caught up in all of that? There will not be a limiter on my master bus.
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Old 11-03-2016, 05:03 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clepsydrae View Post
The JS version is the "goniometer" (loser/gfxGoniometer). I modified it slightly to add a configurable alpha and a visual amplification. Attached is my modified version.

Looking at it now, my version has a correlation meter and the 5.27 default one seems not to; i didn't add that, so i'm not sure what's up with that. Maybe the latest edition removed it or something?
there is something weird with the stock version now. (i use a modded version for visual display gain as well.)

You have to expand the height just a bit and you'll see the correlation meter.

some odd change in the gfx code over recent versions must have skewed something...

* I use this thing all the time! I have an unhealthy obsession with tracking acoustic instruments in M/S. It's not rare for me to use it while setting up mics

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Old 11-03-2016, 07:38 PM   #61
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you are not wrong.

* ok yeah, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here I think for this particular mix -12 is pretty close to reasonable and is obtainable - I'm just concerned because -12 seems like a bad precedent for these contests.
I tested further and I can work with -12 I believe. -12 to -15 is my preferred dynamic range for stuff I usually record which sonically isn't that far removed from this mix.
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Old 11-03-2016, 08:07 PM   #62
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I tested further and I can work with -12 I believe. -12 to -15 is my preferred dynamic range for stuff I usually record which sonically isn't that far removed from this mix.
yeah I got there too...




**TB_EBU reports intersample peaks in my mix - Melda analyzer does not. I guess I'm ok... I'm definitely worrying about this too much. Well, I need to practice this stuff in my current setup anyway, going to try to release the next album by Feburary

and only lost about .5 db in dynamic range to get there, so I'm actually really pleased.

I had been rendering my mix, then using the SWS action to normalize it to -12 LUFUS (brought it up about 4db.) and slapping eventhorizon on it to limit it to -.05. This was not pretty.

ended up breaking out my Loser Master Limiter MOD and a bit of event horizon to get there - all in all that ended up being about 2 hours worth of "work" for me nail the settings. No real loss here, and I don't have too big of an issue with getting this to that level - I do think the normalization level could be a bit lower for the contest format here though. It's not an issue here, but we'll see what material we get next month. something to consider - in spite of my drama

Being that I'm pretty much in a *"new" room, I'm going to check this mix in the car first... If it's not too much of a disaster, I'll post it tonight! ha ha.

*I'm back on the family farm for now. The studio is the metal barn I basically grew up playing music in. I have impulse responses of this room that I've been using for the past 8 years or so in basically every mix. I know the sound of this place well.. but by god it's way too live for a mix room! It's basically a metal tent with a concrete floor!

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Old 11-03-2016, 08:57 PM   #63
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and slapping eventhorizon on it to limit it to -.05. This was not pretty.
You know, that is exactly what I happened to be doing when I was complaining earlier. I then tried ReaComp as a limiter to see if I could reel it in, it's ok right now but we'll see.


Quote:
*I'm back on the family farm for now. The studio is the metal barn I basically grew up playing music in. I have impulse responses of this room that I've been using for the past 8 years or so in basically every mix. I know the sound of this place well.. but by god it's way too live for a mix room! It's basically a metal tent with a concrete floor!
haha, cool. I'm have new living room with a 25 foot ceiling. I've been too lazy to make impulses for it.
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:27 AM   #64
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It's only the 4th of November and I've already received the first submission! I would say the REAPER Contest has just proved to have greatly relaunched! Hehe
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:36 AM   #65
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It seems like -12 LUFS is too high for many of you. No problem, change that in -14 I'll edit immediately the first post with the updated instructions.
There's no reason why you should destroy all the dynamics. Fuck off loudness war
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:45 AM   #66
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Wow!!! The admins made also this thread sticky!!! this is turning out way better than I initially thought


For anyone looking for this thread in the General Discussions, it has been moved to Music/Collaboration Discussions
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:46 AM   #67
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It seems like -12 LUFS is too high for many of you. No problem, change that in -14 I'll editimmediately the first post with the updated instructions.
There's no reason why you should destroy all the dynamics. Fuck off loudness war
OH ha ha.. guess i'll undo my "mastering" then and resumbit.

I sent it in so I'd stop messing with it and just concentrate on my own material. A trick that was likely not going to work anyway.

I'd guess most of us would likely end up between -14 and -12 with this mix without thinking about it. Likely it depends on how the metering on the master bus is setup.

Even if I end up in the minority and other people will find their mix naturally ends up at -12 anyway, I feel like -14 is a better reference point - It's much much easier to go down that it is to go up!



Quick poll:

How do you all have your metering display setup for the Master? and How conscious are you of hitting a target level when mixing?

I have a RMS display offset of -14. If I see too much red on the RMS meters, I try to back off. Generally I do not use any Loudness metering when mixing.

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Old 11-04-2016, 06:12 AM   #68
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Quick poll:

How do you all have your metering display setup for the Master? and How conscious are you of hitting a target level when mixing?

I have a RMS display offset of -14. If I see too much red on the RMS meters, I try to back off. Generally I do not use any Loudness metering when mixing.
I haven't adjusted anything on the Master meter. I find that commercial tracks that I've used for reference have their RMS pretty much staying inside the shaded area of the meter on default settings.

I don't pay much attention to the Master meter while mixing. I use that meter when I'm "mastering," if you want to call it that. Perhaps I should say that I'm Louderizing.

Loudness target: In my opinion, should be -13 LUFS. That is the loudness normalization target for YouTube. Mark Ronson's "Uptown Funk" is -12 LUFS and its considered a more dynamic modern release.

Whatever the chosen requirement, I think it's important for the entrants to take care of meeting the loudness target rather than expect DaveKeehl to take care of it for us. If people submit drastically different files then some will have to get limited by Dave while others get turned down. Having a specific target gives the user more control over his/her submission and reduces work for Dave, or at least, reduces any unwanted additional processing that Dave may need to do in order to get all entries at the same loudness for comparison.
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:19 AM   #69
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How do you all have your metering display setup for the Master? and How conscious are you of hitting a target level when mixing?

I have a RMS display offset of -14. If I see too much red on the RMS meters, I try to back off. Generally I do not use any Loudness metering when mixing.
I don't do anything until I'm at the last 1/3 or so, then I start being aware of loudness by using the meters in my monitoring chain (TB EBU, TT-DR etc) and do the final 1/3 mixing into the main compressor/limiter. I sort have always done it that way; might be different if I were mixing 10 tunes to one 'CD' but since I'm not, no need to worry about it.
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:19 AM   #70
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This song is tight !
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by James HE View Post
Quick poll:

How do you all have your metering display setup for the Master? and How conscious are you of hitting a target level when mixing?

I have a RMS display offset of -14. If I see too much red on the RMS meters, I try to back off. Generally I do not use any Loudness metering when mixing.
Hi James, so where do you have your "Red Threshold" set?
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Old 11-04-2016, 11:57 AM   #72
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I just happened to think, I've been using ReaVerb with some free IRs made by our own SMM, if I included the IRs with my project files, will that work, or not?
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Old 11-04-2016, 12:27 PM   #73
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I just happened to think, I've been using ReaVerb with some free IRs made by our own SMM, if I included the IRs with my project files, will that work, or not?
I'm sure many of us will use ReaVerb. I'd say just throw a portable install of reaper in a folder. Then when you export/save the project and include the IRs etc, make sure everything works by opening the project in that portable version before uploading (portable won't know anything about anything else on your system or main install settings).

Actually, just to make my life easier, I might go ahead and create a portable version and only import settings I need but not VSTs and other non-contest required settings. That way I can just mix from that version and reduce chances of something I've long forgotten over the years causing problems. Hmm...
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:07 PM   #74
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I'm sure many of us will use ReaVerb. I'd say just throw a portable install of reaper in a folder. Then when you export/save the project and include the IRs etc, make sure everything works by opening the project in that portable version before uploading (portable won't know anything about anything else on your system or main install settings).

Actually, just to make my life easier, I might go ahead and create a portable version and only import settings I need but not VSTs and other non-contest required settings. That way I can just mix from that version and reduce chances of something I've long forgotten over the years causing problems. Hmm...
Thanks karbo, are you sure we have to include a portable install or even a config file if it's only an IR or 2? I think we can just include it in the folder with the project file, can't we?

I've never used ReaVerberate before, but I just experimented with it and I think I can make it work for some of my reverbs. I still have one particular IR I like on the snare which is from SMMs IR library.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:26 PM   #75
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Thanks karbo, are you sure we have to include a portable install or even a config file if it's only an IR or 2? I think we can just include it in the folder with the project file, can't we?
)
Right, all I meant was you could save/export the project along with the IRs you used. Then open the project in the portable version and you'll learn quickly what, if anything is missing etc. I'm guessing if you go ahead and throw copies of the IRs in the project media folder, then load them from there you'd be fairly bulletproof. The portable idea was just so you could test the saved/exported project outside your main install, not that you have to upload the portable install itself.
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:42 PM   #76
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Right, all I meant was you could save/export the project along with the IRs you used. Then open the project in the portable version and you'll learn quickly what, if anything is missing etc. I'm guessing if you go ahead and throw copies of the IRs in the project media folder, then load them from there you'd be fairly bulletproof. The portable idea was just so you could test the saved/exported project outside your main install, not that you have to upload the portable install itself.
Aah, okay, I understand.

I think I'm close to submitting an mp3, or isn't that how it works? I don't see any other submitted mp3s yet, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. I was pretty busy during the last contest and didn't follow along with what happened.

Karbo, I asked James where he had his "Red Threshold" set? Where is yours? I've got my "Offset" set at 14dB and my "Red Threshold" set at 4dB. It doesn't say "- or +", but I assume it's "-", or not?

I've just never paid any attention to that before, I've just mixed to what sounded good to me.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:12 PM   #77
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I think I'm close to submitting an mp3, or isn't that how it works? I don't see any other submitted mp3s yet, unless I'm looking in the wrong place. I was pretty busy during the last contest and didn't follow along with what happened.
I'm going to upload your mixes at the end of the mixing segment
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:18 PM   #78
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I'm going to upload your mixes at the end of the mixing segment
Aah okay, so there are no preliminary mp3s. That sounds reasonable, and is probably the right way to do it.

Burrrr, heh heh, I feel naked right now.
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:45 PM   #79
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Your post got me to measuring. I'm not good with knowing how to limit to that spec but if my guess testing is correct, I 1000% agree with you.

I'd probably be concerned about continuing if I had to crush/destroy the dynamics that much; so I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Edit: I think I'm probably wrong, just so I can confirm, how do I tell with Tone Boosters EBU Loudness meter?

I believe it's the integrated loudness value, so you're in the right ballpark.

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Quick poll:

How do you all have your metering display setup for the Master? and How conscious are you of hitting a target level when mixing?

I have a RMS display offset of -14. If I see too much red on the RMS meters, I try to back off. Generally I do not use any Loudness metering when mixing.
For volume I only look at my tracks, including master, during mixing, making sure I am in the right ballpark. I use sophisticated plugins only at the end.

Last edited by lolilol1975; 11-04-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:51 PM   #80
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Hi James, so where do you have your "Red Threshold" set?
geeze...

it's at 0.

I didn't even know that was an option till you asked. HA!

Looks like it pushes the area before red up 4db.
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