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Old 11-04-2016, 09:07 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by James HE View Post
geeze...

it's at 0.

I didn't even know that was an option till you asked. HA!

Looks like it pushes the area before red up 4db.
Well damn, I didn't know you could set that. Going to look now.

Edit: Not sure why I care though.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:25 PM   #82
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I've just never paid any attention to that before, I've just mixed to what sounded good to me.
For lufs, same here my friend. All I was doing was going for a true peak of -0.5 with an integrated loudness of -14. I've gotten so used to the scale over the years that I hardly pay attention to the colors.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:38 AM   #83
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I have a handful of sub dB adjustments to make after listening in the car on the way to work this morning then I'll be done. I'll wait till the end to upload since I know me and something creative may pop in my head between now and then.

I also think it would be fun, after the voting stage begins is for those who mixed to share observations and things they found. There are a lot of things I noticed but want to wait till later to discuss as not to influence anyone unfairly.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I have a handful of sub dB adjustments to make after listening in the car on the way to work this morning then I'll be done. I'll wait till the end to upload since I know me and something creative may pop in my head between now and then.

I also think it would be fun, after the voting stage begins is for those who mixed to share observations and things they found. There are a lot of things I noticed but want to wait till later to discuss as not to influence anyone unfairly.
nice how are the others doing? we're almost halfway of the mixing part
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:32 AM   #85
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I'm pretty much finished with my mix. Except that I've been caught up in experimenting with my headphone EQ correction which has drastically effected the mix itself. I'm nearly settled on my experiments now, so I need to make some final adjustments before submitting.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:12 AM   #86
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Sent in my mix.
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Old 11-09-2016, 11:43 AM   #87
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Sent in my mix.
great
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Old 11-11-2016, 06:13 PM   #88
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Default Still working...and questions.

Had my mix initially finished a few days ago, fitting it in among other work; now of course the nitpicky stuff. Also doing some fun experimentation with vocals and such. Really groovy track to work with. Looking forward to submitting my mix next week.

Questions: as this is my first submission with this contest, I just wanted to be sure I submitted things correctly.

1) Regarding the subfolder for JSFX plugs, do we actually copy and paste the plug itself? I ask as I'm not sure where those files sit within my Reaper menus to copy them. I know where I store my standard VSTs, but where can I find the JSFX files - is it in the C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Reaper folder somewhere?

2) I know we should not rename files or tracks; however, if we add tracks to the projects, should we name them with the same protocol as the original source files? Like, if an original source file is "24_LeadVocal", could we name another track "24B_LeadVocalChorus", for example?

3) Is there any rule for how we name or group fx busses or parallel busses at all?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:18 PM   #89
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Questions: as this is my first submission with this contest, I just wanted to be sure I submitted things correctly.
First of all I'm not totally sure about any of your questions, but I'll respond according to what I think.

Quote:
1) Regarding the subfolder for JSFX plugs, do we actually copy and paste the plug itself? I ask as I'm not sure where those files sit within my Reaper menus to copy them. I know where I store my standard VSTs, but where can I find the JSFX files - is it in the C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Reaper folder somewhere?
If they are regular JSFX, you shouldn't have to worry about this. If it's a JSFX that is not part of the regular JS plugins, then I guess you should point to where ever it can be obtained.

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2) I know we should not rename files or tracks; however, if we add tracks to the projects, should we name them with the same protocol as the original source files? Like, if an original source file is "24_LeadVocal", could we name another track "24B_LeadVocalChorus", for example?
I don't think there's any problem in renaming tracks, they will show up in your projects just as you named them. It's renaming the audio files that's the real problem, but as long as you keep the original audio file names in tact, there should be no problem. For example, you can cut the audio files up and edit them in any way you want to, just don't rename the "Source Files" and there should be no problem

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3) Is there any rule for how we name or group fx busses or parallel busses at all?
Here again, busses whether FX or not, are just tracks, and should show up as you intend. However, you will want to delete any track icons if you have them, that could present a problem.
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
First of all I'm not totally sure about any of your questions, but I'll respond according to what I think.



If they are regular JSFX, you shouldn't have to worry about this. If it's a JSFX that is not part of the regular JS plugins, then I guess you should point to where ever it can be obtained.



I don't think there's any problem in renaming tracks, they will show up in your projects just as you named them. It's renaming the audio files that's the real problem, but as long as you keep the original audio file names in tact, there should be no problem. For example, you can cut the audio files up and edit them in any way you want to, just don't rename the "Source Files" and there should be no problem



Here again, busses whether FX or not, are just tracks, and should show up as you intend. However, you will want to delete any track icons if you have them, that could present a problem.
Tod, I appreciate the feedback. Thanks!
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by thunderbroom View Post

1) Regarding the subfolder for JSFX plugs, do we actually copy and paste the plug itself? I ask as I'm not sure where those files sit within my Reaper menus to copy them. I know where I store my standard VSTs, but where can I find the JSFX files - is it in the C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming\Reaper folder somewhere?
I haven't crossed that bridge yet but I assume default ones wouldn't matter, custom ones would.

Quote:
2) I know we should not rename files or tracks; however, if we add tracks to the projects, should we name them with the same protocol as the original source files? Like, if an original source file is "24_LeadVocal", could we name another track "24B_LeadVocalChorus", for example?
I made copies of a couple which turns 24_LeadVocal into 25_LeadVocal - I think if it makes sense it wouldn't matter how you do it.

Quote:
3) Is there any rule for how we name or group fx busses or parallel busses at all?
I doubt it, I have a few folders I just named them what I wish. Oops, looks like Tod already answered similarly.
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Old 11-12-2016, 07:06 AM   #92
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Thanks @Tod and @karbomusic for answering, I was busy
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Old 11-12-2016, 11:20 AM   #93
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Which metering mode do I need to use for LUFS?
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Old 11-13-2016, 12:30 AM   #94
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BTW, what voting system will be used ?
I've read a bit about the different voting systems (after the US elections fiasco due to the electoral college), and the approval voting (or multiple choice voting) system seems to be the best one.

It was adopted by associations of mathematicians and statisticians in America and is also favored by statisticians in other countries. I suggest we use this system (i think it's the one w used last time).

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Old 11-13-2016, 09:10 AM   #95
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BTW, what voting system will be used ?
I've read a bit about the different voting systems (after the US elections fiasco due to the electoral college), and the approval voting (or multiple choice voting) system seems to be the best one.

It was adopted by associations of mathematicians and statisticians in America and is also favored by statisticians in other countries. I suggest we use this system (i think it's the one w used last time).
I think, after learning from the recent US elections, that we need to use a random electoral system with the added influence of whoever gets the most media attention (true or false info does not matter, just the most...)

lol, sorry......
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:19 AM   #96
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Which metering mode do I need to use for LUFS?
Probably not most efficient way, but I've just been making a render and measuring it with the extension. Then adjusting my limiter settings and making a new render. I'm away from the house, so can't give any better description at the moment. When the RMS meter just tickles the bottom of the shared area on the MASTER seems to be pretty close.
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:51 AM   #97
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Probably not most efficient way, but I've just been making a render and measuring it with the extension. Then adjusting my limiter settings and making a new render. I'm away from the house, so can't give any better description at the moment. When the RMS meter just tickles the bottom of the shared area on the MASTER seems to be pretty close.
I settled on EBU R128/BS.1770. It's easier IMHO to get reasonably close ITB then render and open in Orban. Reason being is that Orban loads the file and does the analysis offline so I don't have to wait for the song to play through each time. Which means a small adjustment if needed can be rendered and evaluated faster than playing through in real time. I'm assuming using extensions or other tools are the same difference.

Here's where I am now. I'm less versed than I should be with LUFs because I typically hate most commercial limiting ratios and mix as what I think sounds best. I'm a little confused with an LRA of 3.7, if I drop the limiting/compression, I get the same LRA which goes against what I *thought* LRA was which was the average DR calculated by omitting the bottom 10% and top 5%.

I'm guessing that I'm not limiting enough so that middle 85% is affected so it doesn't get reflected in the LRA? Either way that number, notwithstanding experience with it that I don't have, seems a little low visually. Again, maybe that is because I'm more used to DR (TT-DR) where the bottom 10% and top 5% are included in the average and uses a much smaller window. Meaning to be fair, my ears sort tell me there is only about 4 dB there so there is that.



The other cool thing about Orban is you can load file after file into a list and just compare them.
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Old 11-13-2016, 04:35 PM   #98
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Last week to submit your mixes

Since some of you asked, I've created a survey, where you'll be able to choose 3 of the mixes you like the most.
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Old 11-13-2016, 04:39 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolilol1975 View Post
BTW, what voting system will be used ?
I've read a bit about the different voting systems (after the US elections fiasco due to the electoral college), and the approval voting (or multiple choice voting) system seems to be the best one.

It was adopted by associations of mathematicians and statisticians in America and is also favored by statisticians in other countries. I suggest we use this system (i think it's the one w used last time).
we did use it last month indeed. The problem was that as far as I know, google forms don't allow a maximum number of multiple choices and the only way I had found to receive a single vote per user was to force you to create a google account.
This time you'll be able to vote max. 3 mixes and only 1 vote per person.
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Old 11-13-2016, 06:24 PM   #100
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Here's where I am now. I'm less versed than I should be with LUFs because I typically hate most commercial limiting ratios and mix as what I think sounds best. I'm a little confused with an LRA of 3.7, if I drop the limiting/compression, I get the same LRA which goes against what I *thought* LRA was which was the average DR calculated by omitting the bottom 10% and top 5%.
Well I've never monkeyed with that myself. I don't think I have a meter for it anyway. Is there a reason I should be concerned about this stuff? I want to do what's right.

Also I don't think I've heard anything about the ending, right now I'm just fading it out like the original, what's the word on this?
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Old 11-13-2016, 06:41 PM   #101
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Apologies Tod, I think I pretty much have it figured out by now. I wasn't trying to complicate, I was just talking about the mixdown submission guideline since I've never formally rendered to those specs:

a master mix (limited to -0.5 dB and at -14 LUFS): MP3 320kps


LUFS is loosely similar to DR and dB RMS, but smarter and takes the entire song into account. So -14 dbFS RMS would be similar but it isn't as smart as a meter that uses LUFS calculations since LUFS considers the entire song, not just a sliding sample window - it has other things it uses for the calculations as well but we don't need to worry about that.

You can use Orban and there are probably other freebies. I like Orban for some tasks because I can just render my master and load it in orban to check but you can also do it in real time if your sound card can loop back.

http://www.orban.com/orban/meter/

If you need help I'm sure we can figure it out. What this does is ensure every submission will be the same overall loudness and there will be no need for David to try to level match multiple mix submissions so they can be evaluated properly when listening. It's more confusing at first than it is difficult.
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Old 11-13-2016, 06:55 PM   #102
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Okay, thanks a bunch Karbo, I DLed it along with the manual and will check it out tomorrow.

What about the end, are you fading it?
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Old 11-13-2016, 07:08 PM   #103
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Okay, thanks a bunch Karbo, I DLed it along with the manual and will check it out tomorrow.

What about the end, are you fading it?
Hi Tod, I am fading it.
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Old 11-13-2016, 07:29 PM   #104
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Hi Tod, I am fading it.
Aah, good.
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Old 11-13-2016, 09:29 PM   #105
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Just to touch base (bass) with y'all....

I am finally getting to mixing this cool tune. I'll admit, I've become more set in my ways with my comfort zone tools than I ever thought I'd have to admit. So besides getting the time to start the mix, I am having a harder time getting the mix to where my ears want to hear it.

I will have a decent mix I think, but as a disclaimer of sorts, I am approaching this pretty straight-forward (I would even with my own tools) and am not trying to make anything besides what I hear it as: a simple but awesome indie-rock tune. In fact, I am most likely doing it strict "LCR" mixing. So don't expect wild panning, synchronized delays, etc. Don't get me wrong, I bet that some of you can do some things that I wouldn't even dream of! There's so much talent on this forum! But my main hold-up is my own curmudgeon-ness at not being able to work as fast with the Reaper tools (which is ludicrous because the Reaper tools are simple but powerful and my normal set of things are difficult and sometime a pain in the butt...but I am used to them...ha ha) So....I should be able to meet the deadline....

I am not fading the ending,in response to Todd's question to Karbo? What did you mean by "like the original"? Did you actually listen to the "real" mix of this song?? Ha ha, I refuse to listen to the original or any of the "contest" mixes. I do these things as if the band hired me to mix their song. To each their own. Cheers!
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Old 11-13-2016, 11:07 PM   #106
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Welcome.

I think LCR is a great idea if you are going that route. Would be nice to have different mixing styles like that represented in the same set of tracks.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:53 AM   #107
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You can use Orban and there are probably other freebies. I like Orban for some tasks because I can just render my master and load it in orban to check but you can also do it in real time if your sound card can loop back.

http://www.orban.com/orban/meter/
Hi Karbo, I've got the Orban meter all set up to receive input from my interface inputs 3/4, and I've got my interface set up for loopback to inputs 3/4, by pluging my outputs 3/4 into my inputs 3/4. I've also got Reaper sending on 3/4.

However, I'm not getting anything on the Orban meter, is there a trick to getting it to work. The manual is nothing but a version history, I can't find anything on how it works.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:18 AM   #108
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Aah, never mind Karbo, got it, heh heh, I didn't know you had to push the little button on the bottom. Sorry about that.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:20 AM   #109
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Aah, never mind Karbo, got it, heh heh, I didn't know you had to push the little button on the bottom. Sorry about that.
No worries. I should have mentioned but forgot. You might also check out the analysis tab, click that little plus sign at the bottom and browse to a render. You can load lots of files there and compare them easily - Not being that familiar with LUFS I loaded some commercial stuff and other stuff I was familiar with just so I could compare and familiarize myself. That helped a lot actually.

There are probably free VSTs that do this ITB, I just don't know what they are because I already had a copy of the Toneboosters LUFS plugin.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:41 AM   #110
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No worries. I should have mentioned but forgot. You might also check out the analysis tab, click that little plus sign at the bottom and browse to a render. You can load lots of files there and compare them easily - Not being that familiar with LUFS I loaded some commercial stuff and other stuff I was familiar with just so I could compare and familiarize myself. That helped a lot actually.

There are probably free VSTs that do this ITB, I just don't know what they are because I already had a copy of the Toneboosters LUFS plugin.
Okay, thanks again Karbo, here's another question. I don't see anything about LUFS, only LKFS, is that the same thing?
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:43 AM   #111
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Okay, thanks again Karbo, here's another question. I don't see anything about LUFS, only LKFS, is that the same thing?
Yep, same thing. Also, I was using the 'reconstructed peak' as the *true peak reading aka the 0.5 peak requirement in the contest. The bottom skinny meter is the one we want for loudness (Integrated) on the Meters real-time tab, on the Analysis tab where you load files, bottom of the window has those same details so shoot for -14 LUFS/LUKS with a "Highest Reconstructed Peak Level" of -0.5.

Once you have that going you can use something like JS: Event Horizon (if needed) to set a -0.5 maximum level then adjust other params to get to -14 LUFs and you should be good.

*If memory doesn't fail me "True Peak" simply means it calculates intersample peaks - so it should be fine to use that in our -0.5 dBFS requirement AFAIK.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:52 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Yep, same thing. Also, I was using the 'reconstructed peak' as the true peak reading aka the 0.5 peak requirement in the contest. The bottom skinny meter is the one we want for loudness (Integrated) on the Meters real-time tab, on the Analysis tab where you load files, bottom of the window has those same details so shoot for -14 LUFS/LUKS with a "Highest Reconstructed Peak Level" of 0.05.

Once you have that going you can use something like JS: Event Horizon (if needed) to set a 0.5 maximum level then adjust other params to get to -14 LUFs and you should be good.
Okay, many many thanks, I think I got it.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:56 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Okay, many many thanks, I think I got it.
Happy to help, I had to spend the day Saturday reading up and testing how all of this works so it's my pleasure to share as it helps justify the time spent.

Also, I see a typo: -0.05 should read -0.5
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Old 11-14-2016, 01:24 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Aah, never mind Karbo, got it, heh heh, I didn't know you had to push the little button on the bottom. Sorry about that.
Like you, I decided to download Orban and test it out. However, even after setup I get the error: "ASIO Buffer size is too large".

In reading through the accompanying documentation, I cannot find anything that tells me the appropriate (media) buffer size. Right now, mine is set to the default (1200 ms). Any idea what it should be for Orban to work?

I added my mix to the session as an additional track, and set it up to be solo, bypassing everything else. Should I not play my mix back in this way? Any ideas you might have would be appreciated (I also had the same "button off" issue earlier as well!).
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:10 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by thunderbroom View Post
Like you, I decided to download Orban and test it out. However, even after setup I get the error: "ASIO Buffer size is too large".

In reading through the accompanying documentation, I cannot find anything that tells me the appropriate (media) buffer size. Right now, mine is set to the default (1200 ms). Any idea what it should be for Orban to work?

I added my mix to the session as an additional track, and set it up to be solo, bypassing everything else. Should I not play my mix back in this way? Any ideas you might have would be appreciated (I also had the same "button off" issue earlier as well!).
I just knocked mine down to something like 128 samples from 1024 and that did the trick - I forgot to call that out before so apologies - I still think it's still more efficient to just analyze rendered files because...

LUFS wants the *entire* song for it's calculations so it needs to accurately see it from beginning to end when using with live playback - this is one of several things that separates it from something like TT-DR meter which is only DR/RMS for some predefined sliding window - LUFS cares about the entire song. Now whether we need to care about that for this contest - I don't know, but to be official until told otherwise, I've been calculating for the entire length of the song.

This is why most of these meters (even Toneboosters) have functionality for starting, stopping and resetting the tool when using it 'live'. That means you could potentially spend a lot of time in Reaper, setting the cursor to the beginning, playing, oops, rewind, reset the meter, play to the end, evaluate the result, rinse and repeat.

As you can probably tell the above would burn an awful lot of time (ask me how I know) so in reality it turned out much quicker for me to just use the live meter as sort of a ballkpark "how am I doing spot check" during mixing duties.

nce I was ready to render a test mix, I began just rendering that and dragging it into orban so I could just do the analysis right then and there. It also saves the analysis' you've done in the list if you use varying filenames (mix1, mix2, mix3) which is also handy for comparisons and so on.

There may be a better non-realtime tool, this is just one I remembered from the recent past.
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Last edited by karbomusic; 11-14-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:21 PM   #116
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I've just been rendering my final mix with "Add rendered items to new tracks in project" selected.

Select the new item.
Extensions > Loudness...
This activates the SWS/BR - Analyze Loudness dialog box.

You may need to click "Analyze selected items."

Integrated is the value that you want to be -14 LUFS. If you're above or below the target just try to adjust your Limiter by the same amount of dB that you're off and it should come really close. I think it only took me 2-3 renders total last contest to get the target I wanted (which was not a requirement then).

I imagine Dave will still have to double-check everyone's submission, but know that if you are lower than -14 LUFS he will have to run your MP3 file through additional limiting or ask you to re-submit. If you're above then the volume will get lowered and your submission will not have the same dynamic range as everyone else's submission.

Alternatively, you could render your mix at a value you know is lower than -14 LUFS (RMS around -18 dB on the MASTER RMS Meter). Then run the Actions:

SWS/BR: Global Loudness Preferences... > 0 LU reference level: = -14 LUFS
SWS/BR: Normalize Loudness of Selected Items to 0LU...

The first Action defines the value of 0 LU, and the second normalizes the selected items to that value.

If you use this alternative method after you rendered you mix with Mastering then:
If your waveform shrinks then your render was louder than -14 LUFS and you may want to reduce your 2-bus compression/limiting.
If your waveform enlarges then you need to apply some additional limiting.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:29 PM   #117
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Hi again Karbo, so I've been kind of following your suggestions and I've got some questions. I'd like a clarification on the meaning of the results.

I'm assuming th "BS.1770 Integrated Loudness" is the main LUFS we want to shoot for.

What exactly is "LRA", I've been assuming it's "Left Right Average" but the number "5.4" doesn't mean anything to me, what is it?

Also, what exactly does "Highest Reconstructed Peak Level" mean, and how should we interprete it, along with the "Reconstructed Peaks Above 0 dBFS"?

In the picture below, there was only 0.1dB difference as to how hard I hit the limiter.

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Old 11-14-2016, 04:35 PM   #118
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FYI:
JS: Event Horizon Limiter/Clipper does not calculate/limit to True Peak.

SWS/BR: Analyze Loudness does have an option to calculate the True Peak (measure intersample peaks). It does take longer than just analyzing the LUFS, but you can use this information to adjust your Ceiling setting to get the targeted -0.5 dBFS peak output for your rendered MP3 file.
**Remember that rendering MP3s can result in higher peaks than your original wav/aiff file due to the conversion process.**

In the Analyze Loudness dialog box, if you see -inf under the True Peak column then the True peak was not calculated.
Click Options > Measure True Peak (Slower)

Then click "Analyze Selected Items" to have them re-calculated.

If you analyze your rendered MP3 file and it's True Peak is 0 dBTP then you have clipped the intersample peaks and your render. Those clips may or may not be audible.
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:12 PM   #119
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My email program will not accept files larger than 500MB. The zip file I created with all the files for the contest is about 740MB. May I submit multiple emails with multiple zip files? Or can I upload a zip file to Box.net and send the download link? Thanks in advance for your responses!
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:29 PM   #120
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Thunderbroom, your zip should ONLY contain the project file and any additional files necessary. NONE of the original source files should be included. Additional files should be any reverb impulses and JS FX not included in the standard Reaper installation.

Hopefully, you did not need to glue or freeze any tracks/items that would have generated new audio files. And, if for some reason you did need to do so, you should use the FLAC file type for those generated files to reduce the total upload size.

Any of the original SOURCE files should be removed from your zip file.
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