Old 03-01-2017, 09:07 AM   #41
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Not if the user in question uses software instruments more than they use multitrack audio. It will be different again depending on whether they mostly use sample-based or modelled software instruments.
Fair point for sure!

I'm pretty sure that not having a SSD in such a system would still have a more negative impact overall if comparing even remotely similar CPU/systems. Sample based instruments are still using the I/O system. Modeling is a different animal of course. It's still a DAW with a RT thread at the end of the day as well so speed before cores still applies I believe.

Following that, for an "I've got clicks and pops, help!" thread the first question to ask should always be: Are you running live sound or live performance or are you doing post production?


I suspect there are a great number of users out there with their system set for low latency because they heard that was the "thing" that are actually doing post work. All your resources geared to low latency monitoring that you aren't even using while your system struggles.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:13 AM   #42
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Fair point for sure!

I'm pretty sure that not having a SSD in such a system would still have a more negative impact overall if comparing even remotely similar CPU/systems. Sample based instruments are still using the I/O system. Modeling is a different animal of course. It's still a DAW with a RT thread at the end of the day as well so speed before cores still applies I believe.

Following that, for an "I've got clicks and pops, help!" thread the first question to ask should always be: Are you running live sound or live performance or are you doing post production?


I suspect there are a great number of users out there with their system set for low latency because they heard that was the "thing" that are actually doing post work. All your resources geared to low latency monitoring that you aren't even using while your system struggles.
Yep, SSD will speed up sample loading or disc streaming, but if you're making modelled synth based EDM on a budget then you're better off spending your pennies on CPU power over an SSD (many modern modelled synths support multithreading*). Though soon SSD's will be cheap enough that the point will become moot, I'm sure.

* just wanted to draw people's attention to that pleasing accidental alliteration
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:13 AM   #43
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Some go for bigger/better CPU coolers so they can overclock, but one can also chose to use the fancy cooler for silence instead of overclocking with user defined settings, I have a simple option in the BIOS and I bet there is software also called fanspeed or something if the thing supports it.
Not all to distant generation GPUs have almost blow my feet off but thankfully that have improved also and they can be user controlled also.
I thhhink GPUs are totally silent today below say 60c'sh or something. (3rd party GPU coolers atleast)
I am not bringing up the coilwhine thing on purpose as the subject itself, the word itself scare the crap out of me.
Very long cables and the computer in someone's else (your ex's) house works also.
I use a tower fan cooler with a 120mm fan and BIOS settings to reduce fan speeds/noise, not to overclock.
This leads to drastic reduction of noise AND drastic reduction of temperature over the crappy stock Intel model (actually not fair comment since the tiny stock model is a severely compromised design allowing it to fit in more PCs).
You can have your cake and eat it with tower coolers. Much lower temp's, far lower noise AND modest overclocking all at the same time, provided you can fit a tower heatsink in a case with good airflow.

Recently I removed a GTX 760ti with fancy twin fan cooler. I was hoping it would almost remove or reduce the last vestige of sound from the PC. The noise difference between no card/fanless card and a big gaming card with good cooling is therefore miniscule, if audible at all.
You only hear a big gaming card if it is driven hard, say playing a GPU hungry title like Crysis 3.
I think the CPU fan might have increased ever so slightly because of the onboard GPU nullifying any difference the graphics card made.

It's nice and quiet anyway.


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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Yep, SSD will speed up sample loading or disc streaming, but if you're making modelled synth based EDM on a budget then you're better off spending your pennies on CPU power over an SSD (many modern modelled synths support multithreading*). Though soon SSD's will be cheap enough that the point will become moot, I'm sure.

* just wanted to draw people's attention to that pleasing accidental alliteration
CPU is most important with the most CPU hungry soft synths. Chromaphone 2 is the hungriest VSTi I have, it makes Diva divine mode seem quite gentle (one or two of the most hungry patches on their own can push my i5 2400 too hard, even when Windows says it is working at 3.57ghz x4 cores). If considering buying Chromaphone 2 on it's own I would suggest at least a beefy top of the line new i5, beefy i7, Xeon or perhaps this new Ryzen range.


Reaper's performance meter tells you averages only. This is next to useless with some soft synths as you get vicious spikes of CPU activity. Chromaphone 2 is a good example of this it looks like a reasonably gentle load in Reaper. Task manager/performance tells you more about what's really going on.
Limit to 8 or 4 voices (or turn off unison) makes it more manageable with patches like "Purple Nights"

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Old 03-02-2017, 09:05 AM   #44
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Great minds think alike.
I actually "expect" hoping pretty relative civilized noise even when playing hardcore games with High End GPUs and I hope I am right because, I am awaiting Vega as I have no choice, if I wanna game and, need a new monitor with more pixels so, I am double needy.
So, the new CPU & Co will be the last prio as my "antique" i5-3570 will due for a bit longer, a tad, it don't support HDPI.. (my best puppyface impression)

But now with the Ryzen tests incoming, I must say congrats and about Bloody Mary time, cheers for waking up Intel atleast, stuff like that.
And ohh, can't Waaaait to play Crysis 3, sorry i'm late and I'll be happy to kick All your asses in Any Game soon!

PS: A Chroma-whot-phone 2-whot? never heard of it, thank you Softie.
PS2: Still would like to see how Ryzen handles REAPER.
Playstation3: Have a feeling Diva might have been Improved a tad since the release because I did not panic as much this time using it.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:53 AM   #45
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Very curious how Ryzen performance will turn out for DAW's.
Especially Reaper ofcourse :0)
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:22 PM   #46
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I wouldn't change one of the latest intel ones for the Ryzen.
But if I were thinking to buy a new system, then the Ryzen seems very interesting. One of the things it seems to do well is multiprocessing but without sacrificing single core performance. So it seems perfect for REAPER. We'll see.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:54 PM   #47
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Some testers show Way to zoomed in charts (on purpose?) like I care about 1,2,3,4 FPS +/- in gameing if the price is half and Excels in REAPER &/or others (just sayin omgomg potential/hope, yup yup)
Could not some expert pre-theory/convert DAW/VST performance based on other test made, like for hint-exampe 7-zip or (something else - list) what have we, know what I meen?
Not that simple? well *beep*..
Exciting times, not complaining and I am more curious than usual.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:16 PM   #48
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I wouldn't change one of the latest intel ones for the Ryzen.
But if I were thinking to buy a new system, then the Ryzen seems very interesting. One of the things it seems to do well is multiprocessing but without sacrificing single core performance. So it seems perfect for REAPER. We'll see.
All depends on the grade of Intel, the top Ryzen is alleged to be half the price of Intel at equivalent performance level. If this is realistic expectation then plenty of power users could benefit from an early upgrade. That's a big if.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:26 AM   #49
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Ryzen did but software dev work on multicore perfomance, and they changed the world basicly, wich is good, why to pay cpu wich is not using all cores?
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:27 AM   #50
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It seems that Ryzen 7 1700 has the best price–performance ratio. The top model 1800x is much more expensive but only slightly faster and not very overclockable.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare...00X/3917vs3916
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:50 AM   #51
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If your livelihood relies on it, let some other mug beta test it and stick with tried and trusted.
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:05 PM   #52
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I'm currently shopping for a new laptop that will run Reaper very smoothly with lots of tracks & FX.

What I'm gathering from this thread, sounds like I should avoid AMD and go for an Intel i5 or i7 processor. Correct?

Also, what's a good amount RAM for Reaper? My old laptop was only 3GB and would quit after about 7 or 8 tracks (effects on all tracks). I'm aiming for minimum 8GB or RAM, will that suffice? I would like to be able to run up to 16 or more tracks (all with FX).
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:21 PM   #53
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what you should gather from this thread is wait if at all possible, this exact moment is a horrible time to buy, if Ryzen gets tested and is stable over the next few months, the entire game has changed.
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:22 PM   #54
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what you should gather from this thread is wait if at all possible, this exact moment is a horrible time to buy, if Ryzen gets tested and is stable over the next few months, the entire game has changed.
Definitely. Even if you don't buy AMD, Intel prices should come down further as a result of it.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:10 PM   #55
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Definitely. Even if you don't buy AMD, Intel prices should come down further as a result of it.
Unless you are buying a top end laptop (with tight funds) if it is needed I would buy one now. Ryzen means far healthier competition for the desktop market (sans onboard graphics chip so far). Laptop chips haven't even been announced yet.
It doesn't really invalidate any purchase you need to make now.
I would expect smaller differences in laptop prices as a portion of the cost of a machine in a higher volume market.

I still would not hesitate to suggest an i5 or i7, they will still be the biggest players in the market. Prices of high end processors will be volatile though if AMD really is finally Ryzen from the ashes.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:13 PM   #56
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what you should gather from this thread is wait if at all possible, this exact moment is a horrible time to buy...
That's what I think too. (Not sure if the same reasons as you.)
We're in between generations at present.

There haven't been any real upgrades in the last 8 years. We got an accessory upgrade with the SSD a good 8 years ago. The newer pci connected M2 is recent. SATA connected SSD's far remove the need to spend any CPU cycles on managing the I/O system already. Point being that the newer machines with the pci connected M2 SSD's aren't going to speed anything up further unless you are editing multiple 4k video streams or something similar.

If it's time to cycle in a new machine to use for the next 15 years or so (or until something new actually comes along that you can't live without) then there you go. But the last couple batches of supercomputers built to run 15 - 20 years have half their life or more left and you can buy 3 higher powered machines for the price of a new lower spec facialbook browsing machine.

Also consider the audio interface selection. Even restricting yourself to the last 5 year window - the thunderbolt 1 & 2 audio interfaces are still premium priced units. Thunderbolt 3/USB-C? Good luck with the interface selection there! The 7 or 8 year old models with native firewire ports and SATA drive bays might just still be the best choice for a system right now unless you're buying EVERYTHING new starting from scratch.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:06 PM   #57
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Thanks guys. I actually can afford to wait since I'm not recording anything major soon. My old, dying laptop can still facilitate my current work, so hopefully intel prices do drop over the next several months.

Aside from some other negative feedback I've gotten about AMD, I've heard that they tend to run hot and make the fan run loud. That's the last thing I need if I'm recording parts DI.

Firewire! I completely forgot about that & glad you mentioned it, serr. The audio interface I wanna keep using plugs into my current laptop's native firewire port. I really hope newer laptops have the port cuz I don't wanna have to buy everything new. (And I have to go laptop, desktop won't work for me).
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:24 PM   #58
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Aside from some other negative feedback I've gotten about AMD, I've heard that they tend to run hot and make the fan run loud.
That's certainly true of the current ones (I have one for graphics work), but Ryzen supposedly improves on this.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:53 PM   #59
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Thanks guys. I actually can afford to wait since I'm not recording anything major soon. My old, dying laptop can still facilitate my current work, so hopefully intel prices do drop over the next several months.

Aside from some other negative feedback I've gotten about AMD, I've heard that they tend to run hot and make the fan run loud. That's the last thing I need if I'm recording parts DI.

Firewire! I completely forgot about that & glad you mentioned it, serr. The audio interface I wanna keep using plugs into my current laptop's native firewire port. I really hope newer laptops have the port cuz I don't wanna have to buy everything new. (And I have to go laptop, desktop won't work for me).
Does your laptop have a 2.5" SATA drive bay?
Have you already installed a SSD for your system drive?
If not, that's how you upgrade to suddenly make your system 5x-10x faster (depending on what performance HDD you had in there).
That SATA SSD accessory can transfer to a new machine if you trade up (caveat that you need to stay with SATA bay machines for that next upgrade as opposed to the new M2 pci connecting models).

The tip in other words is to recognize and treat everything as modular.
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Old 03-10-2017, 06:29 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistandantilus
Aside from some other negative feedback I've gotten about AMD, I've heard that they tend to run hot and make the fan run loud.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
That's certainly true of the current ones (I have one for graphics work), but Ryzen supposedly improves on this.
AMD have typically pushed their existing manufacturing processes hard where Intel have had the financial resources to reduce the size of the manufacturing die with more new generations of chips than AMD could manage. Smaller signal paths means less power required, less heat produced, greater potential for faster clocks and more transistors hence more processing muscle, slower fans meaning less noise, smaller PCs and so on.

Most of the higher performance AMD systems I built were far louder and hotter than the Intel ones.

The story on the current product is a little more complex:
http://wccftech.com/ryzen-smaller-di...-not-good-hpc/
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Old 03-17-2017, 07:04 AM   #61
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So, I pulled the trigger.. be gentle..
I... went... for... Intel Core i7 7700K so I can get a 4K monitor NOW (ordered, check) I have suffered enough in 1080p-land.
Can't waaait to see REAPER and stuff in 4K and see what the devs have been up to, fiiiiinally, sorry I am late.
Ps: I am mentally 14 atm.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:35 AM   #62
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Um... Seen the threads about 4k monitor users running in lo res mode because otherwise Reaper looks blurry on 4k monitors? Sorry...
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:44 AM   #63
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Um... Seen the threads about 4k monitor users running in lo res mode because otherwise Reaper looks blurry on 4k monitors? Sorry...
Looks great in the latest pre release with hdpi support and the 2x theme.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:56 AM   #64
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I've seen threads where the devs including WT adding hiDPI support, I am so scared.
The way I see it, I can help contribute with information for the devs if, I find anything not mentioned already.
And.. and, aaand, start themeing myself, in 4K and share it!
Sound good heda, oh maaan, how shall I sleep this weekend.. ahhh!!
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:21 AM   #65
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Looks great in the latest pre release with hdpi support and the 2x theme.
Aha! OK.
So that will be long in the past if I ever upgrade video monitors (which would be a stunning waste for my eyes unfortunately).
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:35 PM   #66
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Well, before Ryzen came out there was no argument. Intel all the way.

But, especially for a program that scales well across multiple cores like Reaper, or pretty much any DAW these days, 8 core and 16 threads for money they're asking is a stupendously good deal.

I'll be getting one soon.
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:44 AM   #67
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Please do some Diva testing or something with REAPER when you have got your stuff.
When is soon? it variates greatly from user to user i've noticed.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:08 AM   #68
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http://stash.reaper.fm/30216/CPU-Test.rpp

So, before I swap HW in my chassi (T-Minus 5 minutes..) I did a new quick .rpp with 9 Divas, default patch with some semi-random MIDI notes, identical on all tracks just duplicated.
With 9 tracks, I am pushing 75-83 'ish % according to REAPER's own performance meter and I needed to stop there (for my health) with the Ivy i5-3570K (not OC)
If you people would just use this and see how many duplicated tracks you can pull of especially if we got/get any Ryzen users.
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Old 03-18-2017, 05:53 AM   #69
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I did not break anythiiing! haleluljah!
A quickie, 32-36'ish % now with that project, improvement.
20 tracks is about 90%.

Ps. No need to argue, get what you want and slap me around with facts, I am actually interested since I can't obviously test Ryzen myself, hope it does well actually.
Hopefully Vega will be Great so I can compensate for going Intel.
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:23 AM   #70
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What buffer size/interface is that?
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Old 03-18-2017, 07:25 AM   #71
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Not even thought about the buffer, yet, or that I was using the integrated soundcard.
Can't go lower, this can't be right?
Testing with Maschine2 and the instant'ness say it is right..
What the?..
So to answer specific, this one.
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...pecifications/

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:29 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmajjL View Post
http://stash.reaper.fm/30216/CPU-Test.rpp

So, before I swap HW in my chassi (T-Minus 5 minutes..) I did a new quick .rpp with 9 Divas, default patch with some semi-random MIDI notes, identical on all tracks just duplicated.
With 9 tracks, I am pushing 75-83 'ish % according to REAPER's own performance meter and I needed to stop there (for my health) with the Ivy i5-3570K (not OC)
If you people would just use this and see how many duplicated tracks you can pull of especially if we got/get any Ryzen users.
This is VERY relevant to me right now. I'm currently running two systems, one based on an i5 3317u CPU and an older Q9450 quad core. The quad is slightly more powerful than the i5 despite being four years older.
I'm seriously thinking of building a new rig based on an i7 7700K (the exact CPU you chose) so I've downloaded your CPU test project and will run it on both my systems using various interface options (WASAPI with inbuilt audio and RME Fireface UFX ASIO drivers).

This is even more relevant to my requirements because one of the primary reasons for me to upgrade is to run soft synths such as Diva with much more CPU headroom.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:31 AM   #73
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I just tried the i5 with WASAPI @ 192 samples buffer using Jaycar USB stereo DAC and got around 85% CPU use and 11.5% RT CPU.
Using inbuilt audio with WASAPI @192, CPU use and RT CPU both went red and I got a lot of crackling.

Will try RME on the i5 and WASAPI and RME on the Q9450 and report back....

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Old 03-18-2017, 08:53 AM   #74
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OK, i5 using RME ASIO @ 256 samples and CPU is 100%, RT CPU is 135%. Lots of crackles.

Interestingly, RME @ 192 samples using WASAPI gives 95% CPU and 11.5% RT CPU. VERY odd!!
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:59 AM   #75
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Well this is odd. On the Q9450 machine, I can only get it to play 5 tracks. Six tracks and everything becomes very unresponsive.
This is with the RME @ 256 samples. Results are very similar with ASIO or WASAPI.
5 tracks = around 83% CPU and 11% RT CPU.

The Q9450 is slightly more powerful than the i5 with other REAPER projects and when running a single instance of Diva with multicore enabled.

This is causing some head scratching here.

EDIT - I just found the cause of the discrepancy. For some reason, I had the Fireface ASIO clock set to external on the i5 and it was clocking to 32KHz instead of 44.1KHz.
Resetting the clock to internal yields the slightly higher performance in the Q9450 that I was expecting.

Will try the Q9450 with the Jaycar stereo DAC and report back....

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Old 03-18-2017, 09:01 AM   #76
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Fantastic! and then you are mentally 14'ish also soon.
Same here, &/+ start gameing, and the 4k-thingie.
If you have anything specific in mind that you would like me to try just whistle, I am pretty much at default settings atm with the BIOS and all that. (yet to try, maby some % more to collect?)
And yeah, I/we might not upgrade as often as we used to, but when an upgrade meens twize the speed (ok, perrrformance), then maby, it's time and worth it.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:22 AM   #77
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Q9450 with Jaycar stereo USB DAC and WASAPI @ 192 samples gives me eight tracks with about 85% CPU and 9% RT CPU.
Nine tracks makes things unresponsive but experimenting with REAPER CPU related audio thread processing seems to enable all nine tracks to play but with some instability.



With the Jaycar DAC and WASAPI, I get significantly more CPU power on both rigs which REALLY surprises me.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:23 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmajjL View Post
Fantastic! and then you are mentally 14'ish also soon.
Same here, &/+ start gameing, and the 4k-thingie.
If you have anything specific in mind that you would like me to try just whistle, I am pretty much at default settings atm with the BIOS and all that. (yet to try, maby some % more to collect?)
And yeah, I/we might not upgrade as often as we used to, but when an upgrade meens twize the speed (ok, perrrformance), then maby, it's time and worth it.
In agreement with you here, especially the bold bit. In my case, it might be more like four or five times the power to upgrade to an i7 7700K from what I have now which will be TOTALLY worth it.

I might put my Mackie 1640 ONYX firewire desk on eBay to fund the new build.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:29 AM   #79
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I have all the speedstep stuff disabled in BIOS on my Q9450 and that makes a big difference. The i5 laptop doesn't give me any of those options in its BIOS but I have Process Lasso Pro running on both rigs and have that set to disable core parking on the i5 which also makes a big difference.

I've been running Process Lasso Pro now for many years and really like what it does. It is one of the few system tweaking tools that actually does work and makes a significant difference to performance on DAW systems.
I have REAPER set up in it to trigger its gaming mode which basically sets all the power profile settings and CPU settings to absolute maximum performance automatically whenever REAPER is running.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:41 AM   #80
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I'm going to visit the BIOS right now and have a safari tour.
I am so new to the new BIOS I will actually feel like a tourist for abit.

Btw, do Not take for Granted that the motherboard have Displayport (full 4K support) so keep an eye on that.

Ps: and SmajjL.. it's 2017 now, check out the utilities section on the website.
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