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Old 03-27-2017, 01:46 AM   #1
Monroy
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Default Cross delay and guitar bus. How to preserve proportion FX sends?

Hi,

I like to using cross delay for guitars panned hard left/right. But is problem with guitar bus and preseve proportion with sends fx (delay and reverb).

I have 4 tracks:
- guitar left
- guitar right
- guitar bus
- guitar FX (delay & reverb)

Track "Guitar left" send signal to guitar bus and to guitar FX track with delay/reverb panned right (pre FX)
Track "Guitar right" send signal to guitar bus and to guitar FX track with delay/reverb panned left (pre FX)

Problem is when I change volume on guitar bus, guitar FX track stays on the same level.
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:07 AM   #2
uncleswede
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You need to use VCAs - check out this tutorial video:

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/videos.php#JZzR7-KSQMU
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:30 AM   #3
Monroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleswede View Post
You need to use VCAs - check out this tutorial video:

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/videos.php#JZzR7-KSQMU
Thanks! I thought about VCA's and grouping them with individiual tracks but VCA's doesn't handle signal and cannot be used as bus to apply some bus FX on them.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:02 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroy View Post
Hi,

I like to using cross delay for guitars panned hard left/right. But is problem with guitar bus and preseve proportion with sends fx (delay and reverb).

I have 4 tracks:
- guitar left
- guitar right
- guitar bus
- guitar FX (delay & reverb)

Track "Guitar left" send signal to guitar bus and to guitar FX track with delay/reverb panned right (pre FX)
Track "Guitar right" send signal to guitar bus and to guitar FX track with delay/reverb panned left (pre FX)

Problem is when I change volume on guitar bus, guitar FX track stays on the same level.
There are a few ways you can do this.

The easiest is to simply send the guitar bus to the FX bus. Then just make sure that the guitar bus and the FX bus are going to the same destination, the Master or other bus.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:04 AM   #5
Monroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
There are a few ways you can do this.

The easiest is to simply send the guitar bus to the FX bus. Then just make sure that the guitar bus and the FX bus are going to the same destination, the Master or other bus.
Everything would be easy if not cross delay. At the moment I send two guitar tracks to Guitar Bus (master send ON) and from guitar bus to Delay (also master send ON) but per channel - guitar panned left is send from Guitar Bus to delay via channel 2 and guitar panned right is send via channel 1.

But something is wrong because sound in delay looks overdriven.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:09 PM   #6
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If you're sending from the guitar bus itself, a post fader send should just follow the bus level as long as whatever FX you're using are actually floating point linear processes. If that delay plug compresses or distorts, though, there will be a point where turning up the bus doesn't make the delay louder, just more distorted.

In that case you want a prefader send, but of course then it's not going to follow the bus level. So you could send from the individual tracks to the delay and from the delay to the bus.

Realize too that while using two sends and doing the crossover at this point does work, it's kind of unnecessary complication. You can swap either the input or output pins on the FX itself, or just set the receive track's width to -100%.

Really you could just stick the delay on the bus track, swap either in or out pins, and use Reaper's Dry/Wet knob to mix them together.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:54 PM   #7
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So you could send from the individual tracks to the delay and from the delay to the bus.

Realize too that while using two sends and doing the crossover at this point does work, it's kind of unnecessary complication. You can swap either the input or output pins on the FX itself, or just set the receive track's width to -100%.

Really you could just stick the delay on the bus track, swap either in or out pins, and use Reaper's Dry/Wet knob to mix them together.
I want to avoid sending delay and reverb to Guitar Bus because bus compressors will enhance delays. I'm using just little reverb on guitar amp simulator to make some studio room feeling.

Why I prefer crossover? Because in my opinion, guitars (e.g. four tracking) sounds better in mono with no "phase" sound. But this is just my opinion.

I will experiment with pins in FX.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroy View Post
I want to avoid sending delay and reverb to Guitar Bus because bus compressors will enhance delays.
I can dig that, but do you want that compression before the delay? It will make a difference in the sound and the routing.

There are of course ways to use multi-channel track routing to get the delay back to the guitar bus but have it bypass the compressors. It's a little futzy, but not that bad and can work fine.

I never use VCAs, but I thought this really was the whole point. You use the bus as the VCA master and it trims the delay bus slave volume. I'm definitely not the one to tell you how to make that happen.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:27 AM   #9
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Big thanks everyone for suggestion. After few test I prefer strict delay send instead crossover. I send signal from Guitar Bus (after compressors eq etc) to delay bus. Is that ok?

Of course crossover as receive from Guitar Buss is possible - is necessary to make Delay Bus with 4 channels (channel left goes to 1/2, channel right goes to 3/4) and pins on Delay have to be change, but it sound little weird - I mean sound not good.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:34 AM   #10
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The delay bus shouldn't need to be four channels. Just swap the pins or even just set the track's width (in default pan mode, you have to find it in the routing panel) to -100.

The delay itself will of course need to be 100% wet with no dry signal getting through.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:16 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
The delay itself will of course need to be 100% wet with no dry signal getting through.
What kind of signal do you mean dry/wet on Delay Bus?

dry - signal from Guitar Bus before eq, comps etc ?
wet - signal from Guitar Bus after comps, eq etc ?

Or

dry - signal on Delay Bus after comps/eq from Guitar Bus, getting before delay on Delay Bus?
wet - signal do Delay Bus after comps/eq from Guitar Bus, getting after delay on Delay Bus?

I thought that when Delay Bus receive signal from Guitar Bus, is 100% wet - I mean when I solo just Delay Bus, signal is after delay.

?
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:46 AM   #12
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All I really meant was that the delay plugin itself should be set so that none of its input signal gets to its output without being delayed first. Most have either a mix control or a separate control for the dry (input) and wet (output). Double check where you've got that set.
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Old 03-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
All I really meant was that the delay plugin itself should be set so that none of its input signal gets to its output without being delayed first. Most have either a mix control or a separate control for the dry (input) and wet (output). Double check where you've got that set.
Yes, of course this is important and is a common mistake forgot about mix knob in delay plugin on Delay Bus. This knob should be to 100%.
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
The delay bus shouldn't need to be four channels. Just swap the pins or even just set the track's width (in default pan mode, you have to find it in the routing panel) to -100.

The delay itself will of course need to be 100% wet with no dry signal getting through.
Yep, manipulating the width or switching the plugin inputs is the cleanest way to do it. (If the send is post fader anyway) I run my verbs at -100% most of the time.
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