Old 04-04-2017, 01:50 AM   #1
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Default Reaper doesn't normalize to 0dBFS ?

why doesn't Reaper's (item processing) "normalize items" normalize to 0dBFS ?
would be nice if it did...

here are the values when normalizing...



basically, it seems to be normalizing to 0.999 instead of 1.

edit: i removed the JSFX i made because unfortunately it does not work for every situation. also replaced the pic with a more accurate one.
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File Type: png meter.png (13.8 KB, 189 views)

Last edited by bezusheist; 04-08-2017 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:15 AM   #2
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is the item in question at the same samplerate as the audio device? and no timestretch being used?
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
is the item in question at the same samplerate as the audio device? and no timestretch being used?
yes, the audio file (item) is at the same sample rate and bit depth as Reaper(64).
i am testing at 44.1 kHz and 64 bit float mix engine and audio files. i have "none" selected for audio device but i have tried with "default system devices" selected and it doesn't make a difference.
i have tried a few different source/test files to make sure the numerical figure is consistent, and it is. (but i have not tested every possibility)
there is no time stretching or anything else happening.
i import a track, right click > item processing > normalize items.
i have also tried with one SWS action and i get the same result.
i can post a file or project if needed.
thanks

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Old 04-04-2017, 09:34 AM   #4
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Is'nt this right though? it's 0.008(hundreds) over half- and meters only really read 0.00(tens)?
I thought it must be slightly below 0 to not 'clip'? a tolerance of w/e.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
it's 0.008(hundreds)
0.008 = 8 thousandths of a dB FYI.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
Is'nt this right though? it's 0.008(hundreds) over half- and meters only really read 0.00(tens)?
I thought it must be slightly below 0 to not 'clip'? a tolerance of w/e.
at 0 dBFS is not clipping, over 0 dBFS is clipping...(also, with Reaper's faders you have about 15 decimal places of "precision" for a gain change, not just the 2 that you can see on most meters )
and don't even get me started on "the red light" coming on before 0 dBFS...

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Old 04-04-2017, 09:47 AM   #7
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KISS.It's over halfway.
Anything-upto,but not over<>?
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
and don't even get me started on "the red light" coming on before 0 dBFS...
That's precisely why my other reply was so short.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
That's precisely why my other reply was so short.
thank you !
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:17 AM   #10
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@ karbomusic-not counting the decimal,does this ring any bells?
The decibel (dB) is one-tenth of a bel: 1 dB = 0.1 B
The difference will always be 1-on/off - there is no recognised in-between state,floating point always tries to approximate right? (bit like qauntizations)
It's propably worth explaining the differences between -0.00 and +0.00.

Floating point goes beyond db measured scale,perhaps is confusing for even computers sometimes?
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
@ karbomusic-not counting the decimal,does this ring any bells?
The decibel (dB) is one-tenth of a bel: 1 dB = 0.1 B
The difference will always be 1-on/off - there is no recognised in-between state,floating point always tries to approximate right? (bit like qauntizations)
It's propably worth explaining the differences between -0.00 and +0.00.

Floating point goes beyond db measured scale,perhaps is confusing for even computers sometimes?
.008 = 8 of 1000 possible values not 100. So saying .008 = hundredths is inaccurate, that's all. It doesn't matter what the underlying scale is since this is a percentage/fraction of that scale as-is. IOW, .001 of 1 dB = 1/1000th of a dB just like .001 seconds = 1 millisecond or 1/1000 of a second and of course "milli" = 1000.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
It's propably worth explaining the differences between -0.00 and +0.00.
why ? will that make Reaper normalize to 0dBFS like Audacity does... :P
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
why ? will that make Reaper normalize to 0dBFS like Audacity does... :P
Maybe audacity is incorrect
I think the answer lays in the measures title- deci=10.
Anything beyond that is garbage? not even worth the processing space imo.. lol.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:06 PM   #14
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regardless of personal opinion, Reaper is not normalizing to 0dBFS.
It should. That's not opinion, that's math.
In fact, I just might have enough balls to post this over in the bug section too...
Not that anyone here really gives a shit besides me, but I'm bored...
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Old 04-04-2017, 01:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
In fact, I just might have enough balls to post this over in the bug section too...
Not that anyone here really gives a shit besides me, but I'm bored...
Heh-I actually care as much u might-I like things to be all neat n tidy>correct.
Just don't think a computer say's yes,when the answer it has,is no.

(Totally off topic,but towards yourself bezusheist) have to say,your balls are great-made a chain of the 3rd harmonic/balls and saults 4x overlimiter- I instantly grew new balls- 'kin awesome m8.
How on earth do you simplify the code with good results like that? is it old learning you had,or are you learning new code using reaper?
Great jobs. >!
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
Heh-I actually care as much u might-I like things to be all neat n tidy>correct.
Just don't think a computer say's yes,when the answer it has,is no.

(Totally off topic,but towards yourself bezusheist) have to say,your balls are great-made a chain of the 3rd harmonic/balls and saults 4x overlimiter- I instantly grew new balls- 'kin awesome m8.
How on earth do you simplify the code with good results like that? is it old learning you had,or are you learning new code using reaper?
Great jobs. >!
Thanks for the compliment on my balls
I don't have any coding background, I just recently started learning JS so I could make my own simple efx. I like simple things. If it works and it sounds good, then it's because of the input/user, not the code.

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Old 04-04-2017, 05:07 PM   #17
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As a tech- dumb but interested reader, what makes you sure Audacitys report is accurate and Reapers isn't?
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
As a tech- dumb but interested reader, what makes you sure Audacitys report is accurate and Reapers isn't?
I just use a peak meter.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
at 0 dBFS is not clipping, over 0 dBFS is clipping...
Are you sure about that? Maybe you are right, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking of the fixed-point representation you get when you render to 16-bit or 24-bit PCM.

For example, suppose you're rendering to 2-bit PCM. 2-bit PCM samples can take 4 values total:

11
10
01
00

Reordering to put 0 in the middle:

01
00
11
10

But there is no middle, since the number of possible values is even. Different audio software deals with this dilemma in different ways. Some might map like this:

Code:
+1.0 amplitude -> CLIP
+0.5 amplitude -> 01
 0.0 amplitude -> 00
-0.5 amplitude -> 11
-1.0 amplitude -> 10
In that case, 0 dB may or may not be a clip, depending on whether it corresponds to -1.0 amplitude or +1.0 amplitude.

16-bit and 24-bit PCM have the same issue. I don't know how Reaper maps floats to fixed-point PCM, but it's a factor.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic View Post
Are you sure about that? Maybe you are right, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking of the fixed-point representation you get when you render to 16-bit or 24-bit PCM.
As far as Reaper is concerned, 0 dBFS is not clipping, even when converting to fixed point.
But I have seen other DAWs and apps that will clip Reaper's 0dBFS files symmetrically to -0dBFS.
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
In that case, 0 dB may or may not be a clip, depending on whether it corresponds to -1.0 amplitude or +1.0 amplitude.

16-bit and 24-bit PCM have the same issue. I don't know how Reaper maps floats to fixed-point PCM, but it's a factor.
Yuussss- see,i had this out with some reason users a while back- they didn't quite get the point that the big meter there will show a dinky lil red light if a peak hits tpeak of 0- but- this is not a true clip indicator--that only gets triggered when it's measuring 0.0(lot of zeros here)..01 over.
I like to think of it as a "soft,pre0 clip indicator".

I don't think even Justin knows exactly the numbers that are generated once audio interacts with a dac-any readings used there will totally depend on the precise position of dac phase when a measurement is taken -I think,like a phase snapshot.

Are your measurements showing consistently exact numbers when your crunching them with floating point calcs?
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
As far as Reaper is concerned, 0 dBFS is not clipping, even when converting to fixed point.
But I have seen other DAWs and apps that will clip Reaper's 0dBFS files symmetrically to -0dBFS.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=26596
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
that only gets triggered when it's measuring 0.0(lot of zeros here)..01 over.
There is no such thing as > 0 dbFS post conversion. As far as I know based on several threads and the one I posted above, reaper considers 1 consecutive sample @ zero clipped. Many others use 3 consecutive samples before deciding for that same reason (>0 no exist) The point is as I stated before, if a rendered file has points at 0 dBFS there is no way to know if those were +10 or actually zero before rendering AKAIK.

All of this back and forth doesn't really cover the bigger point, no one should be pegging this close anyway, pretty much ever. That makes it (beyond the pedantic obsession over the math) a non-musical and non-practical concern.
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
...reaper considers 1 consecutive sample @ zero clipped.
are you talking about the light or actual audio/file clipping ?
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
are you talking about the light or actual audio/file clipping ?
Both (sort of) because you can't know if it was clipped after the fact, no? The only thing you can do is what DAWs do now, count how many consecutive samples are at zero and make a decision. I haven't tested but seen it referenced enough times to feel comfortable until someone does a recent test. It makes sense though based on the behavior of reaper being seemingly more sensitive to displaying "overs". I'm aware of the -0.001 thing on tracks but I don't think that difference is statistically relevant enough to be the reason for the additional perceived sensitivity (it's too damn close to zero).
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Old 04-06-2017, 05:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Both (sort of) because you can't know if it was clipped after the fact, no?
probably not really with music, but with a sine wave you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It makes sense though based on the behavior of reaper being seemingly more sensitive to displaying "overs".
i don't think it's because Reaper is more sensitive, i think it's because the other DAWs are clipping 24 bit symmetrically, and Reaper does not, it utilizes the full word length for +1/-1.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
probably not really with music, but with a sine wave you can.
I think that leaves us with the same conundrum when wondering what the music was doing pre render (after the fact) but I already know a sine @ zero shows clipping in reaper but I haven't taken the time to confirm 1 consecutive sample.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:10 PM   #28
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I think that leaves us with the same conundrum. But I already know a sine @ zero shows clipping in reaper.
but just on the meters, and thats why i don't think it's right for them to turn red <= 0.
if you check on an analyzer, there is no clipping, even after rendering a fixed point file.
its trivial, i know, but it causes confusion sometimes and its a shame that all DAWs and apps can't be on the same page...even though they all do the math the same...
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
but just on the meters, and thats why i don't think it's right for them to turn red <= 0.
if you check on an analyzer, there is no clipping, even after rendering a fixed point file.
its trivial, i know, but it causes confusion sometimes and its a shame that all DAWs and apps can't be on the same page...even though they all do the math the same...
I'll plead ignorance because I don't know... If you have a file and there are two samples @ zero post render, how can you know whether they were zero or +2 before render whether you are using meters or not? If you can't know we have our answer as to why DAWs 'get nervous and less consistent' at zero don't we?

If less than zero, I get that.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
no one should be pegging this close anyway, pretty much ever. That makes it (beyond the pedantic obsession over the math) a non-musical and non-practical concern.
No one should be ripping Megadeth from CD, importing into Reaper, and wishing the clip-meter wasn't giving false-positives? I have to dissent from your opinion about what I should be doing in my home with my DAW.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic View Post
No one should be ripping Megadeth from CD, importing into Reaper, and wishing the clip-meter wasn't giving false-positives? I have to dissent from your opinion about what I should be doing in my home with my DAW.










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Old 04-07-2017, 05:36 AM   #32
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Lolz--
Anyways,using v.5.40 there are things amiss,and if I were the dev would be looking into this further no doubt.
Another thing-the track meter is showing a difference to master meter here,by about .01
It appears everything is getting rounded to the nearest tenth.
*Shrugz*
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:11 AM   #33
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here are 3rd party stats showing what happens with the normalizing process...
the process was:
generate 0 dBFS source file @ 64 bit float (render)> clip symmetrically to -0 dBFS (render)> gain down 50% to -6.02 (render)> item processing "normalize items" (render)
all files were rendered at 24 bit integer (no dither).
i have tried this same test using all 64 bit float files as well, and the results are basically the same. (normalizes to same value, not 0dBFS)

afclip stats

source file
2_pulses_0dBFS_sym_clip_24bit.wav
1 ch, 44100 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000C) 24-bit little-endian signed integer
-- no samples clipped --

SoX stats

source file:
2_pulses_0dBFS_sym_clip_24bit.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -8388607
Max level 8388607
Pk lev dBFS -0.00

attenuated 50% (spl0*0.5)
2_pulses_half_power_sym_clip_24bit.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -4194304
Max level 4194304
Pk lev dBFS -6.02

normalized in Reaper
2_pulses_half_power_sym_clip_24bit_normalized.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -8380219
Max level 8380219
Pk lev dBFS -0.01*

*actual value is more like -0.00869...+/- dBFS

i attached all of the test files just to "properly" document this with some actual "evidence".
Attached Files
File Type: zip test_files.zip (5.5 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by bezusheist; 04-20-2017 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
here are 3rd party stats showing what happens with the normalizing process...
the process was:
generate 0 dBFS source file @ 64 bit float (render)> clip symmetrically to -0 dBFS (render)> gain down 50% to -6.02 (render)> item processing "normalize items" (render)
all files were rendered at 24 bit integer (no dither).
i have tried this same test using all 64 bit float files as well, and the results are basically the same. (normalizes to same value, not 0dBFS)

afclip stats

source file
2_pulses_0dBFS_sym_clip_24bit.wav
1 ch, 44100 Hz, 'lpcm' (0x0000000C) 24-bit little-endian signed integer
-- no samples clipped --

SoX stats

source file:
2_pulses_0dBFS_sym_clip_24bit.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -8388607
Max level 8388607
Pk lev dBFS -0.00

attenuated 50% (spl0*0.5)
2_pulses_half_power_sym_clip_24bit.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -4194304
Max level 4194304
Pk lev dBFS -6.02

normalized in Reaper
2_pulses_half_power_sym_clip_24bit_normalized.wav

DC offset 0
Min level -8380219
Max level 8380219
Pk lev dBFS -0.01*

*actual value is more like -0.00869...+/- dBFS

i attached all of the test files just to "properly" document this with some actual "evidence".

edit: huh...i think i actually just figured out what's going on, but i'll wait to hear from a developer or someone first..
I can replicate this.

However, I'm not sure that the value of fixing this is worth it unless it's some very obvious fix for the developers.

edit: Information:

Code:
sox 2_pulses_0dBFS_sym_clip_24bit.wav -n stats
Quote:
Samples read: 132300
Length (seconds): 3.000000
Scaled by: 2147483647.0
Maximum amplitude: 0.999000
Minimum amplitude: -0.999000
Midline amplitude: 0.000000
Mean norm: 0.000015
Mean amplitude: 0.000000
RMS amplitude: 0.003884
Maximum delta: 0.999000
Minimum delta: 0.000000
Mean delta: 0.000030
RMS delta: 0.005493
Rough frequency: 9925
Volume adjustment: 1.001
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:03 PM   #35
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I can replicate this.

However, I'm not sure that the value of fixing this is worth it unless it's some very obvious fix for the developers.
i honestly think it's just a simple mistake on their part.

imo it doesn't make sense why Reaper would normalize to +/- 0.999 instead of +/- 1.
isn't that truncating ? iirc Reaper (mix engine) doesn't truncate, it rounds.
i think once they start to play around with the numbers a little they'll figure it out.

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Old 04-20-2017, 11:44 PM   #36
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Is this issue going to be addressed ? Do i need to file it in the bug reports section ?
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:11 AM   #37
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(grin) Good luck with that!

Speaking purely for myself, I would far rather see the devs time being sent addressing some of the more significant issues still left un-dealt with, but there ya go....
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:25 AM   #38
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it would at least be nice to hear from one of them about it.
although it probably has 0% important to anyone, it's technically incorrect behavior and needs to be fixed.
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:58 AM   #39
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or... or... it's a metering approx...
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:31 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws View Post
or... or... it's a metering approx...
i don't understand what this means ?

if you are implying that Reaper does normalize to 0 dBFS and the meters are wrong, that is not the case. it has been verified by other means. this is a bug with normalization.
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