Old 11-09-2009, 12:36 PM   #41
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Sorry,I have been busy lately with gigs and all sorts of things. I felt that I should give you some update on my thougths.

First of all Good job with the analyse so far. I have checked the capture files against you're 'humle opinion' and your theories looks good.
Thanks for taking a look. I have been fairly tied up myself, as our company tightens the belt. It has meant a position shift for me with more workload than before.

Good thoughts and theories. And I agree completely that it seems the control 24 is being treated like a "dumb terminal", to borrow an old term. Actually, dumb terminals were smarter as the mainframe on the other end certainly didn't get this level of detail (like button-down/button-up).

I'll be out of town for a week, but let me know if I can help,

NN
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:50 AM   #42
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Default More analysis

Sat tonight and reviewed the capturefiles by saving them in a hex display textformat. I'll think I got the drafts for mute, displays, volume faders and touch.

Netloggin - when you got the time you might check this by filtering the hex numbers in wireshark in a realtime capture with filter. Then We'll see for sure if I have decoded it right.

The analyse can be found at http://www.frastech.com/shared/c24

/Indys
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:21 AM   #43
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I am seriously impressed by this...

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Old 11-10-2009, 09:13 AM   #44
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All your base are belong to us....
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Old 11-10-2009, 09:20 AM   #45
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Sat tonight and reviewed the capturefiles by saving them in a hex display textformat. I'll think I got the drafts for mute, displays, volume faders and touch.

Netloggin - when you got the time you might check this by filtering the hex numbers in wireshark in a realtime capture with filter. Then We'll see for sure if I have decoded it right.

The analyse can be found at http://www.frastech.com/shared/c24

/Indys
I'll take a look as soon as I get back off the road (Sunday). I can tell you in reference to "touch/select fader? Does it have a light?", the answer is it changes the scribble strip display for that channel upon touch. Normally it switches from track name to the current level reading, updating as (or if) you move it.

NN
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:56 AM   #46
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Default Low-level ethernet packets

As I primary uses .net for developing I checked around for my odds using .net as my platform for sending and receiving raw packets. I found out that there is a .net library that wraps wincap (the driver used in wireshark). I've done some tests (good results!) and I'm going to make a small c-24 simulator where I can check our theories against the capturefiles. I can also use it to communicate with protools by spoofing it to have a c-24 nearby.

Does anyone know if I need a special version of protools or will a 'light-edition' communicate with c-24?

Is there any special drivers for the c-24 that needs to be installed to make protools work with it or is it simply the announcement frame that does the trick?

/Indys
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by indys View Post
As I primary uses .net for developing I checked around for my odds using .net as my platform for sending and receiving raw packets. I found out that there is a .net library that wraps wincap (the driver used in wireshark). I've done some tests (good results!) and I'm going to make a small c-24 simulator where I can check our theories against the capturefiles. I can also use it to communicate with protools by spoofing it to have a c-24 nearby.
Great work!!

Quote:
Does anyone know if I need a special version of protools or will a 'light-edition' communicate with c-24?
PT LE will work.

Quote:
Is there any special drivers for the c-24 that needs to be installed to make protools work with it or is it simply the announcement frame that does the trick?

/Indys
Depends on which version of PT you're running. Older versions were a bit of work to get the C24 driver going. In PT LE you'll need to go to Setup > Peripherals... > Ethernet Controllers, then enable and select the C24.

Shane
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Old 11-13-2009, 12:50 AM   #48
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Default Good news!

I have sucessfully 'captured' frames from the capturefiles (sent back to the network) and processed them in my emulator application. It is so much easier to see the datastream when you can do some serious formatting programatically.

I think that I can confirm much of the theories in our drafts just by analysing the data within my application. Some mysterious messages remains but I will sort them out when I have a unit...

and when I mention a unit.... Now on to the really good news: In two weeks I'm gonna have a c-24 unit installed at my projectstudio :-).
Then the fun begins...!

Have a great weekend
/Indys
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Old 11-14-2009, 05:26 AM   #49
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That is indeed excellent news! You'll enjoy having the Control 24. The only real complaint I have with it is the physical rise in the back makes it hard to also place monitors in front of you AND see out the forward-facing window if you have one.

Nice to know I wasn't completely insane in my initial analysis. Thanks for your perspective and work in this area. I should be returning soon.

NN
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:16 AM   #50
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This may be of interest to those following this thread, they're symbiotic concepts.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...616#post405616
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:00 PM   #51
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Just to clarify, indys - will you have the newer c24 or an older Control 24?
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
This may be of interest to those following this thread, they're symbiotic concepts.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...616#post405616
Thanks for the pointer! This is really getting interesting.
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:23 AM   #53
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Just to clarify, indys - will you have the newer c24 or an older Control 24?
Actually I don't know. Whats the difference?

/Indys
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:31 PM   #54
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Actually I don't know. Whats the difference?

/Indys
I only have the older Control 24, so I don't know the details. I have just downloaded the manual for the newer C24, and it looks more cosmetic than anything - buttons and knobs rearranged but still there.

The bigger question to us would be are they handled differently from a software perspective. I know we need to know the answer to that. But my opinion at this point? I would be surprised to see any differences. My theory says one of the goals of the C24 design was reuse of the existing code base, either completely or as much as possible, to minimize development costs.

Another interesting fact - I believe there is only one ethernet driver shipped with Pro Tools, which gets used regardless of the control surface version you have. Need to confirm that...

If you get the C24 (and I have the Control 24), we'll soon know. Again, the more I look at the manual for the C24, the more it looks the same, functionally. Even the utility mode where you test your LEDs, faders, etc. is exactly the same.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:39 PM   #55
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Control 24:
http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...uide_25948.pdf

C24:
http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...uide_41362.pdf

Quick hint: zoom in and compare page 33 on the Control 24 vs. page 17 of the other.
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by indys View Post
I have sucessfully 'captured' frames from the capturefiles (sent back to the network) and processed them in my emulator application. It is so much easier to see the datastream when you can do some serious formatting programatically.
Great news to hear! I plan on getting this bad boy going with REAPER:



Shane
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Old 11-16-2009, 03:28 AM   #57
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Seems like c24s channeldisplay handles more characters but that should not be different in the protocol as the displaymessages ends with "F7" in the datastream.

I'll think that it is the old control 24 that I will get...
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:18 PM   #58
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Great news to hear! I plan on getting this bad boy going with REAPER:



Shane
I wonder how many of those are also out there. Interesting thought that I had while I was looking at the captures - what if they use the same approach across the board for all ethernet-based controllers? Reaper on an Icon DControl anybody? That would be a hoot.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:26 PM   #59
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I wonder how many of those are also out there. Interesting thought that I had while I was looking at the captures - what if they use the same approach across the board for all ethernet-based controllers? Reaper on an Icon DControl anybody? That would be a hoot.
I talked to someone last year who got their Icon DControl working with other apps. They basically did the same thing we're doing here and reverse engineered all the output data.

Shane
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:09 AM   #60
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Shan - can I ask how much your 2nd hand C24 cost?
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:03 AM   #61
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Shan - can I ask how much your 2nd hand C24 cost?
I think it was around $6000 but this was 7 years ago. Argosy Console was included.

Shane
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:15 AM   #62
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ouch!
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:39 AM   #63
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I got mine sometime in 2006-07 off of Ebay for $4000. No Argosy console though. I'd say six for both is not high.

There's one on Ebay as we speak with a buy-it-now price of $2,600:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Digidesign-Contr...item2557531df0

Of course, recognize the risk involved with buying it that way. I got lucky and got one that does not have the power supply and harness problems that plague some early versions.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:16 AM   #64
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ouch!
7 years ago back in 2003 with an Argosy console that was definitely a good deal.



You wouldn't find one any cheaper back then. I also got it completely refirbished by Digidesign for free as the owner never registered it.

...Digidesign even covered the shipping.

These days I would guess $2500-$3500 or so.

Shane
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:35 AM   #65
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Oh that is so cool...

You just *have* to get that working with REAPER, I'd offer to help but not sure what I could do.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:47 AM   #66
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Default A emulator-debugger-tracer-application preview :-)

I thought I could share some screenshots of my emulator-debugger-tracer-application that I use when analysing the capturefiles.

Screenshot0.jpg is the application for sending capturefiles to the network.
Screenshot1.jpg and Screenshot2.jpg is the application that listen to the network traffic and simulates the control 24s surface.
As you can see displays, faders and some other buttons are already decoded and functional. When I have the Control-24 unit and protools it should be easy to make sense of the rest.

I'll will sum up what I find to a draft protocol spec and then we'll have to figure out the best way to make something that is compatible with some hosts. I think that the HUI protocol (midi) is the most compatible.

Btw, I'm using windows and .NET for developing these things. Not so compatible with mac and linux... :-(.
If there is anyone who's interessed in doing some c++ coding and port whatever I come up with from .NET to some other language or system I will be glad to share my sourcecode.

/Indys

P.S. How do you display attached images directly into the post? D.S.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot0.jpg (46.5 KB, 2020 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot1.jpg (108.8 KB, 397 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot2.jpg (108.9 KB, 391 views)
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:15 AM   #67
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That, my friend, is an excellent bit of work!

I agree on the HUI idea. I always envisioned that the implementation would be something common enough to be used across major DAWs (although Reaper is the obvious choice for so many reasons :-) ) by converting to some common protocol.

Again, excellent stuff.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:00 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indys
I'll will sum up what I find to a draft protocol spec and then we'll have to figure out the best way to make something that is compatible with some hosts. I think that the HUI protocol (midi) is the most compatible
Quote:
Originally Posted by netnoggin
I agree on the HUI idea. I always envisioned that the implementation would be something common enough to be used across major DAWs
Great work indys !

However it will be a bit tricky using the exact HUI protocol.

As I'm sure you're aware, MIDI messages consist of 3 bytes -- Status, MSB, and LSB.

The strict protocol is that only the Status byte can (and must) have the high bit set.

That means the MSB and LSB only have a range of 0 - 127.

I don't know if this is enforced in MIDI transport layers (layer 4 in the networking sense).

The Mackie Control Universal (almost the same as HUI) uses Status E0 - E7 for the faders on an MCU or Extender and E8 for the Master Fader on the MCU.

The 14 bit payload (actual Fader position) is delivered in bits 0-6 in the MSB and LSB.

The first problem is the Fader ID -- you've only got from E0 - EF -- 16 Faders max.

Second problem I see is the switch ID's

They're encoded thusly in the MCU:

Status = 90

MSB 00-7F - 128 values available

LSB -- 00 released, 7F pressed, 01 -- Blink (for associated light)

Looks to me like there are way more than 128 switches on the C24.

There is another rather bizarre possibility -- once the Ethernet traffic has been handed over to the application it could be split into more than one MIDI stream -- you might be able to retain the HUI protocol somehow that way -- I don't really like that approach myself though.

Anyway, check out what I'm currently working on (mentioned a few posts back), and just to add I'm here to help in any way I can.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:41 AM   #69
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Great work indys !
....
Looks to me like there are way more than 128 switches on the C24.
....
10 switches per channel X 24 = 240
55 non-channel switches on the left
68 more on the right, not counting trasport, keypad, and monitoring section.

So yeah, there's a bunch. But it may be in our best interest to ignore some of those. Heck, Digi doesn't even implement all of them, LOL. There's some on there that are indeed not implemented at this time in Pro Tools.

So just thinking out loud, it may be difficult to make every single button available AND make it work with a common protocol. Obviously if it was to be made specific to Reaper, you could tie in almost everything via the APIs available (applying my meager knowledge of it to the situation - your opinion may vary).

NN
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:53 AM   #70
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Heck, Digi doesn't even implement all of them, LOL. There's some on there that are indeed not implemented at this time in Pro Tools.
Ya, more broken promises from Digi. They didn't even finish it before it went out the door.

Well done by the way!

Shane
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:57 AM   #71
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So just thinking out loud, it may be difficult to make every single button available AND make it work with a common protocol.
You're still left with the Faders issue.

Speaking for myself (if I owned a C24) I wouldn't want to be restricted to 16 Faders just to be HUI compatible in Reaper.

If you're talking compatibility with DAW's in general that's another matter and that tradeoff may be perfectly acceptable.

I don't know how much Reaper doesn't do for you, how much you have to rely on other software, so I suppose that's a factor as well.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:20 AM   #72
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I'd be gutted to go through all this work and not be able to use all of the device. Sod the HUI.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:27 AM   #73
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I just (re)-ran across a document I found a while back that gives some detail about the Logic Control implementation. What caught my eye was the info on page 246, where they describe surrounding the alphanumeric info with the same F0-F7 combination. You don't suppose....

http://home.centurytel.net/mirage/co...B477F22d01.pdf

NN
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:40 AM   #74
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What is your thought?
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:44 AM   #75
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Default HUI

Maybe the best approach is to make an application that receives all the bells and whistles from c24 and then map it to midi in a user configurable way. In that way the compatibility won't be an issue. In cubase it is possible to map almost any event to midi (even tracknames and window openings) via the generic remote functionality and if the c24 converter uses a virtual midiport it should be doable. In that case all you have to do is to do the mapping for each host one time and then release the mapping-file public domain.

If the mapper also supports sysex the number of buttons and lights and functions is irrelevant as the message size is almost only limited by f0-f7. (Some buffer overflows can be seen if you take it to extreme ;-))

The question is how much functionality the converter needs to have: blinking lights, converting faderposition to db value for its display and so on... maybe that should be configurable to...

Yes, I have read the Logic control manual and implemented its HUI spec in a track display application. I think they was publishing most of hui specification in that manual not knowing that the protocol was kind of a secret :-)

/Indys
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:13 PM   #76
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A big +1 for Sysex based communication.

A lot more flexibility, even to the point of a header describing the contents to follow type stuff, etc.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:25 PM   #77
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[img]http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6543&d=1258711158[/img]


This URL i see at the address bar in my browser when i watch this picture. It is an attachment in a thread earlier on


This is how you can post images. First attach it to your message as jpeg or whatever and then post the link as image by editing your own post.
I attached an image posted in this thread as example

read this: http://forum.cockos.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode

Hope that helps

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Old 11-20-2009, 08:49 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indys View Post
P.S. How do you display attached images directly into the post? D.S.
As mentioned above:

Code:
*[*img]https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/694320/PTSB.png[*/img*]
Remove the *
For thumbnail images that link to bigger ones, do this:

Code:
*[*url=http://www.image][*img]*http://www.thumbnail[*/img*][*/url]*
Remove the *


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Old 11-20-2009, 09:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by netnoggin View Post
So just thinking out loud, it may be difficult to make every single button available AND make it work with a common protocol. Obviously if it was to be made specific to Reaper, you could tie in almost everything via the APIs available (applying my meager knowledge of it to the situation - your opinion may vary).

NN
There's also the EuCon protocol:

http://www.euphonix.com/pro/post/eucon.php

http://www.euphonix.com/pro/news/img...aper_oct06.pdf

http://www.euphonix.com/pro/news/index.php?id=96


I've been basically porting over a ton of Pro Tools HD functionality to REAPER myself. This includes all menus, shortcut commands, functions and even look:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=12

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=13

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=20

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=35

Surprisingly, a lot of this has been easy to port over but we also get the added benefit of REAPER features that PT HD just cant do. To be able to hit a button on an Avidesign control surface and invoke a REAPER action would just bloody amazing!

Shane
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:47 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastiaan M View Post



This URL i see at the address bar in my browser when i watch this picture. It is an attachment in a thread earlier on


This is how you can post images. First attach it to your message as jpeg or whatever and then post the link as image by editing your own post.
I attached an image posted in this thread as example

read this: http://forum.cockos.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode

Hope that helps
Ok, thanks
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