Old 04-21-2011, 06:02 AM   #1
timlloyd
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Default New DDP Export

Quote:
v4.0alpha66 - April 20 2011

+ DDP export plug-in (thanks to Sergej Marsnjak!)
///

I'm merging previous comments into this thread for clarity.

Let's discuss the new DDP plug-in and potential consequent features

///

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Well this Sergej is me
Unfortunately there seams to be no free DDP import tool. However, I used 30-day trial version of Sonoris DDP Creator to test the files.
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Yes, DDP2.0.
Currently there is no import, maybe it will be somewhere in the future.
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
The DDP export is a brilliant new feature. However, it's unnecessarily complex for the user imo.

Is it possible to have a "DDP edit/setup" window that allows the user to actually set up the DDP markers etc... that works like the Sonoris DDP creator?

I don't know how complex it would be to create it, but if DDP output is already available, it doesn't seem to me that it would be very difficult to package up the guts of it into a better interface than creating lots of markers with specific names that are easy to screw up ...

A list-view like the Sonoris, that when edited would shift the audio on a given track around and create the necessary markers for us would be very very useful
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
It is a little harder to make edit screen without interference with the default marker usage. For some, creating markers is easier and more intuitive, as this is in the time domain, others prefer the list.
However, a feature could be at least to display the (readonly) list of tracks with INDEX positions and meta data. But if the list is editable, it can make the conflict with the markers, if the markers are moved after the track list is edited.

Yes, to fully use the markers, it can be a little complex. But if you don't need INDEX0, ISRC, EAN, you can just use # markers, as for CUE/BIN export. Other metadata is optional.
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Would it really be difficult to have an editable list that was itself updated by the manual moving of markers? They would both update each other - maybe I'm not understanding the issue with this?

Also very useful (arguably essential) would be RedBook compliance checking of the DDP set that would result from the current marker set.

... and burning straight to CD from the DDP render window as well ...

I'm asking a lot, I know, but such a feature begs for additional functionality in order to be reliable and useful for the majority of users.

Maybe a dedicated DDP discussion thread is a good idea?
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
What about sws including it in their marker window (that's unless the new region window in reaper gets some love)
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Redbook compliance is ensured by automatically correcting the tracks to conform the specification.
To make the both-way editable list <--> markers, it would need a little more integration into the REAPER, and more programming time
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
Would both of those things be possible?
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Possible, yes, but now only theoretically.
It is not recommended, that some export plugin is changing the markers. The export plugin should only change the output file, but leave the session intact.

What I see as an option, is editable list, which is always filled automatically by reading the markers. But, if this list is edited manually, then the markers will not affect the list anymore, unless some "reset list" button is pressed.

But, there is not enough time to make this feature soon . Maybe in the near future....

P.S.: you can open a dedicated thread.
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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
This begins to sounds like it doesn't belong as a plug-in, but rather as an actual part of the REAPER application :-/



That's what I was going to suggest initially.

Is your plug-in going to be distributed with R4 by default? It seems so, in which case I really don't understand why it's not just completely integrated.

///

Re. the automatic RedBook enforcement - what if someone wanted to generate a DDP set that would duplicate and work correctly, while actually violating RedBook, such as having a hidden pre-index 1 track? It seems like the type of thing that might be better as an separate optional "check compatibility" and subsequent "force conform" functions if that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
No no, this is not violating the Redbook. The hidden track is completely standard. You just create INDEX0 marker at the 0:00, and INDEX1 (track start) anywhere after 2 seconds. The audio between 0:00 and the first INDEX1 is the hidden track.
///

Disregard my bit about auto RedBook enforcing, as it seems to be a great idea

///

comments?

Last edited by timlloyd; 04-21-2011 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:05 AM   #2
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continued ...

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Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
This begins to sounds like it doesn't belong as a plug-in, but rather as an actual part of the REAPER application :-/
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This is just semantic. REAPER is structured so that a lot of core functionality is technically a "plug-in" (dynamically loaded library). This causes no performance or functionality limitation. Most complex applications are structured the same way, in fact some applications have practically all of their core functionality in plug-ins.

If the DDP export code wanted to change the project markers, it could. I don't want to speak for Sergei, but I believe his point is just that the act of exporting should not alter the project.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:12 AM   #3
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That makes perfect sense Schwa.

How about:

A new DDP set-up window accessible via an Action that isn't directly linked to the Render window and as such has nothing to do with exporting.

This would simply act as a way of formatting DDP-specific markers, indices, metadata, CD-text, start/pause time, offsets etc ... without needing to resort to the current syntax, which is a bit more complex than it needs to be for most users (imho).

There could be a "Render/Export" button in this window that simply opened the existing Render window with DDP chosen as the output format.

This way, the export plug-in isn't altering the project file, but it's still much easier to format the markers correctly.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:17 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
A new DDP set-up window accessible via an Action that isn't directly linked to the Render window and as such has nothing to do with exporting.
This would make a lot of work for Cockos team, to integrate such setup window in the REAPER.
When more time, I'll make the setup screen with editable list in the export window, as we have said in the earlier posts.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:18 AM   #5
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what is DDP?
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d. gauss View Post
what is DDP?
http://www.dcainc.com/products/ddplicense/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_Description_Protocol
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:30 AM   #7
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thanks.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
This would make a lot of work for Cockos team, to integrate such setup window in the REAPER.
This is true ...

Quote:
When more time, I'll make the setup screen with editable list in the export window, as we have said in the earlier posts.
You have been very helpful, thanks
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:57 AM   #9
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This is good news. I also noticed that in the bring-down box that when inserting media from the main menu, it has DDP.Dat

I assume this will be supported?



Thanks for your work on this Sergenious.

Wyatt
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
This is good news. I also noticed that in the bring-down box that when inserting media from the main menu, it has DDP.Dat

I assume this will be supported?

Thanks for your work on this Sergenious.

Wyatt
Unfortunately the import is not supported (yet). But it is not hard to implement. Maybe some day sooner or later. I am quite busy this days.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:48 AM   #11
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it works for me, very nice to do all in Reaper!
but I'm not able to add title to the tracks/album, only ISRC/EAN...
This should be the first improvement, to my opinion, as Cd text is required most of the time.
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Unfortunately the import is not supported (yet). But it is not hard to implement. Maybe some day sooner or later. I am quite busy this days.
Thanks!
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Old 04-21-2011, 11:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
it works for me, very nice to do all in Reaper!
but I'm not able to add title to the tracks/album, only ISRC/EAN...
This should be the first improvement, to my opinion, as Cd text is required most of the time.
Track titles, Album performers and other textual data are part of CD-TEXT specification, and not covered by DDP.

CD-TEXT is also undocumented, but there are 2 different proprietary formats from Philips and Sony. I would love to implement this, but is impossible. The only known CD-TEXT specs are made by reverse engineering the CD discs. Only the "big players" are privileged enough to get the specs.
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:26 PM   #14
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More info on DDP (for those who asked what it is).

http://www.digido.com/audio-faq/f/fi...g-and-ddp.html
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Track titles, Album performers and other textual data are part of CD-TEXT specification, and not covered by DDP.

CD-TEXT is also undocumented, but there are 2 different proprietary formats from Philips and Sony. I would love to implement this, but is impossible. The only known CD-TEXT specs are made by reverse engineering the CD discs. Only the "big players" are privileged enough to get the specs.
mmmm
too bad
got to find a "big player" who "knows" and hope my lovely french wine will free his mind so we can get the specs...
nice work anyway!
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:52 AM   #16
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Hi Sergenious, many thanks for this DDP export function, it is truly great!* However could you provide some more detailed "how to"? I have read the explanations in the render window but still couldn't figure how to use those wildcards and even how to add simple things as ISRC codes.

(* when you consider how much it costs to enjoy the DDP format in Sadie/Sequoia/WAvelab for instance...).

Also, do you know this: http://ddp.andreasruge.de/ ? It steps up the Cue/Bin format to DDP. It is outside of Reaper though.
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:42 PM   #17
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I'm hoping that the devs will consider making it easy in regards to cd burning and such stuff as cd text, cd markers. etc. Such programs that has been mentioned already such as wavelab has an easy way of doing this kind of stuff. The CD Wizard. Have a look.



And CD text

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Old 04-23-2011, 12:54 PM   #18
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I completely agree Wyattrice.
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:17 PM   #19
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Ship arriving too late to save the drowning witch (*), but maybe for the ones feeling like revivalist artists, it might be handy to help keeping the format too...I agreed on WyattRices suggestion a few years ago already.

* Thanks Frank.
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:17 PM   #20
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I'm not sure it is ship arriving too late...

Many smaller artists/independent labels today actually make money from nicely made physical media in a way they just can't from online distribution.

Small runs of cds, sold direct with nice artwork are sometimes more practical business than mp3 downloads from iTunes.

Having direct to DDP in Reaper gives these users a kind of power which wasnt possible without additional costs.

However, I personally wouldn't use it without a read-back function, and the creation process needs to be/appear simpler to give me more confidence in it. It feels to me just a bit Joe's Garage to be Frank at the moment. This is one area where you don't want to read the words 'Changelog: Corrected [whatever] bug in DDP export' after you've just sent your small run product to the plant.

http://ddp.andreasruge.de/ as mentioned before has some useful tools, but without full read-back i'd be very nervous.

A fantastic step in the right direction with this though, and many thanks to the developer of this plugin & devs for integrating it. I appreciate the generosity here very much. DDP used to be very closed.
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Old 04-24-2011, 04:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz lee View Post
Many smaller artists/independent labels today actually make money from nicely made physical media in a way they just can't from online distribution.

Small runs of cds, sold direct with nice artwork are sometimes more practical business than mp3 downloads from iTunes.

Having direct to DDP in Reaper gives these users a kind of power which wasnt possible without additional costs.

However, I personally wouldn't use it without a read-back function, and the creation process needs to be/appear simpler to give me more confidence in it.
Very good points. I was speaking only from the limited view of the mass market as it seems to be nowadays, but that shouldn't be a sole reason not to offer valuable tools like this one. I do appreciate the efforts already made, thanks Sergenious...and certainly support these further ideas too.

Quote:
It feels to me just a bit Joe's Garage to be Frank at the moment.
Ah, perfect line there.

Last edited by xpander; 04-25-2011 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Sergenious, sorry for the misread name.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:26 AM   #22
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Well, the whole point of alpha stage is testing. In the alpha stage, all the exports should be compared with another software tools. Even so, the CD plant does not automatically burn CDs, but imports the files first. If there is an error, they could not continue.

The DDP format is pretty straightforward, so only the marker placements could be problematic. If you are in doubt, please send me the RPP files and I will check and compare the DDP output. When using only # track markers, and all the tracks are at least 4 seconds long, there should be no problem. With ! markers, there must be a little care taken.

I made the plugin on Windows, where (after hundreds of different tests, even obscure and exotic), there were no problems, the Sonoris DDP creator always created completely the same files.

But on Mac, it must still be tested, as I don't have Mac computer. There is a bug with filenames (which contains / on Mac, but \ on Windows) and will be corrected as soon a possible.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawabatnam View Post
Also, do you know this: http://ddp.andreasruge.de/ ? It steps up the Cue/Bin format to DDP. It is outside of Reaper though.
Yes I know him and I have already spoken with him, mainly about the CD TEXT part.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
I'm hoping that the devs will consider making it easy in regards to cd burning and such stuff as cd text, cd markers. etc. Such programs that has been mentioned already such as wavelab has an easy way of doing this kind of stuff. The CD Wizard. Have a look.
These things may come somewhere in the future. I cannot promise anything though.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
Yes I know him and I have already spoken with him, mainly about the CD TEXT part.
And this guy won't share the secret specs?
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:12 AM   #26
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Quote:
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And this guy won't share the secret specs?
He didn't implement CD-TEXT also. He personally said that it is a nightmare, as there is no complete public documentation for it.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:04 AM   #27
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Maybe these infos on the Feurio website are usefull for you.
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:41 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blechi View Post
Maybe these infos on the Feurio website are usefull for you.
I don't dare to make CD TEXT export without official and complete documentation. I don't want to be responsible for any problems, but if someone else volunteers to do it, I don't mind.

Even so, not all CD plants have license from Philips or Sony to make CD TEXT discs.
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
He didn't implement CD-TEXT also. He personally said that it is a nightmare, as there is no complete public documentation for it.
It seems he does on latest version :
# 2011-03-10: version 0.7.6a
# 2011-03: added proper display of all Latin1 characters in CD text fields
# 2011-03: added support for reading the old DDP version 1
# 2011-02: added man pages and new website
# 2011-01: added CD Text writing
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
It seems he does on latest version :
# 2011-03-10: version 0.7.6a
# 2011-03: added proper display of all Latin1 characters in CD text fields
# 2011-03: added support for reading the old DDP version 1
# 2011-02: added man pages and new website
# 2011-01: added CD Text writing
So that's something new. I talked with him in January.
Still, it is too big responsibility for me to implement CD TEXT.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #31
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You think Sony or Philips would sue you?
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:06 AM   #32
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You think Sony or Philips would sue you? :(
Hehe, they probably wouldn't, but thousands of disappointed users with corrupted CD TEXTs would :P
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #33
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The current Reaper markers have to start with # to separate the track indexes. How about a set of CD Markers? CD Markers could be the indexes, and the title of the markers could be the CD text. This is something that should be in Reaper, natively IMHO. It would make using DDP easier.

Off topic a little. It's a little confusing also when burning a cue/bin to make a CD within Reaper using a Windows machine, because the method chooses to use Windows native CD burning first, which automatically places 2 secs between tracks. It would be better to set the indexes in Reaper, and have the Reaper native method cdrecord/cdrtools show first in that bring down box. Also consider changing the cue/bin to cue/wav, and being able to import a cue sheet, that way when receiving cue/wav from other mastering software, Reaper would import the cue, wav, and CD Markers. Makes since right?

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:59 PM   #34
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IMHO that's a bit like making the second step before the first.
Before implementing something that is as badly documented as CD Text it would be nice if REAPER got the markers right.
At the moment there are only track markers possible.
REAPER doesn't know index markers at all.
According to the redbook standard a track can contain up to 99 index markers.
Something like #n for track markers and ##n for index markers would be good.
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Old 05-02-2011, 04:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Something like #n for track markers and ##n for index markers would be good.
I was thinking that Reaper should have a separate set of markers
(CD Markers), and no need to type in # or ##, it's kinda confusing. Just insert a CD Marker, and it's done.
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Old 05-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
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I was thinking that Reaper should have a separate set of markers
(CD Markers), and no need to type in # or ##, it's kinda confusing. Just insert a CD Marker, and it's done.
Yes, but even with CD markers you'd have somehow to distinguish between tracks and their indices.
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blechi View Post
Yes, but even with CD markers you'd have somehow to distinguish between tracks and their indices.
I'm just saying, programs such as WaveLab, Samplitude, makes it easy to put in makers, and no need for special characters like # to make the CD. Here's a screenshot.

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Old 05-02-2011, 05:59 PM   #38
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@WyattRice: You're right on the money. We need an interface like Wavelab's or Pyramix's in order to make this new feature really useable. And I don't know about you guys' workflow, but for me, this is the only thing missing in Reaper to make it a one-stop shop DAW.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:01 AM   #39
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I have good workflow with markers+# now that I'm used to (for cue/bin).
As for indexes, I don't remember one time I needed more than index0 + index1 for a track.(we have those)
And I can't even think of a recent(=20years old or less) CD I own that uses index 2 or 3 in a track. Please give me an example...
But CD text is needed, most people want it on their final product.
Maybe DCAinc could provide infos about it?

I'm with you to set-up a "CD manager" anyway !
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:53 AM   #40
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The export plugin, as it is now, is least intrusive for Reaper. Cockos team had very little work to integrate it.

All of this new requests would mean a lot of work and changes for Cockos team. If this things will be ever implemented, depends on JCS.
I totally agree with you that new features could be very useful. But even the current plugin is better than nothing.

CD text is proprietary format of Philips and Sony and independent of DDP (I should not disclose more details because of the license agreement).
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