Old 05-03-2011, 03:04 PM   #41
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I totally agree with you that new features could be very useful. But even the current plugin is better than nothing.
Yeah,
thanks again for doing this Sergenious. Very much appreciated. I do hope that at some point, cockos will consider some kind of cd manager or something that will simplify the process.

During the meantime, I'll be glad to see DDP import. Is this something that you could do? (I think I asked that earlier)
And would Reaper be able to display the .Dat in waveform?

Is there a place we can make donations for your work on this?

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:06 PM   #42
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Yeah,
thanks again for doing this Sergenious. Very much appreciated. I do hope that at some point, cockos will consider some kind of cd manager or something that will simplify the process.

During the meantime, I'll be glad to see DDP import. Is this something that you could do? (I think I asked that earlier)
And would Reaper be able to display the .Dat in waveform?

Is there a place we can make donations for your work on this?

Thanks, Wyatt
I will probably very soon make the import. However, the import is a little tricky. Not the reading of the files, but the markers. As you may insert the media anywhere on any track, what about the markers? I can create the markers with offset as is the position of the imported item. But when you will move the media item, the markers will not move. I can force the markers to be at the same (absolute) position as when previously exported, but I'm not sure if I can also force the imported item to be inserted at zero position.

No need for donations, I made the plugin for myself, but I wanted it to be shared by all the community
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:40 AM   #43
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No need for donations, I made the plugin for myself, but I wanted it to be shared by all the community
very kind of you ! thanks a lot

for the import, I think you can have an action to move item at the beginning of the project( you can "move cursor"+"move item to cursor"). This might be the easiest way; keeping markers and audio at their original time. I think it's also a logical solution for a DDP import...
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:03 PM   #44
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No need for donations, I made the plugin for myself, but I wanted it to be shared by all the community
Many Thanks!

I've been trying to put together a script with the help of a couple of members (they wrote the scripts. Thanks to gofer and Adam) that will automate CD pause's, and insert markers at items start with whatever named prefix. Maybe it will be useful.

Edit: 5-20-11 gofer has completely rewritten the script. We are testing it now.

Here's what it does so far.


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Old 05-19-2011, 02:55 AM   #45
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great!
will this be a SWS action?
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:17 PM   #46
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great!
will this be a SWS action?
I don't know yet. I'll keep you posted
Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:19 PM   #47
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I did some test with the DDP export and compared it with the same project that was rendered in WaveLab and CD Architect. Here's the results shown in Sonoris DDP Player. The pause times in all three was set at 2 seconds. Reaper is off 1 digit compared to the other two. Is this because Reaper doesn't have CD Frames?

WaveLab



CD Architect



Reaper



Same results show with a Reaper Cue/Bin
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:26 AM   #48
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I did some test with the DDP export and compared it with the same project that was rendered in WaveLab and CD Architect. Here's the results shown in Sonoris DDP Player. The pause times in all three was set at 2 seconds. Reaper is off 1 digit compared to the other two. Is this because Reaper doesn't have CD Frames?

Same results show with a Reaper Cue/Bin
The Red Book standard requires 2 seconds gap at the CD start. So the first track's (INDEX1) offset must be at least 00:02.00. Of course this offset can be much longer, and the audio before it is considered as hidden pre-track.

I don't insert 2 seconds of silence before the audio part, but I leave this to users, to have full flexibility about this hidden pretrack, even if it is only 2 seconds long. This allows the exported files to have completely the same time offsets as they are in Reaper.

A lot of other programs always insert a 2 sec silence. That's why there are differences and their values in DDP files are 2 seconds later than actual marker times in Reaper.
With my export, you must manually position the tracks so that the first track is at 00:02.00 offset. If you do that, there will be no differences. But if you don't do that, you will loose the first 2 seconds from the first track, as I move the INDEX1 marker and thus shorten the tracks by 2 seconds. This is clearly visible in the screenshots, where the first track is 2 second shorter in Reaper.

But, just to prevent further issues with this, I will also always insert this 2 second gap at the beginning, independently of the markers and audio position. This will allow you to position the audio tracks directly to the beginning, without worrying about 2 seconds silence.
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:28 AM   #49
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What I was saying, is I did just that in Reaper. Added 2 secs exactly to the start, and 2 secs exactly pause times between each track. It also shows the same thing if I Render it in cue/bin format. Everything was the same in all three test I did.
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:37 AM   #50
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But, just to prevent further issues with this, I will also always insert this 2 second gap at the beginning, independently of the markers and audio position. This will allow you to position the audio tracks directly to the beginning, without worrying about 2 seconds silence.
Could you do this as an option?

Reason being is that, playing back whats on your screen (previewing before you render).

I like it the way it is currently.

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Old 05-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #51
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Sergej,
I'm beginning to wonder if this is a rounding error in Reaper, or has something to do with frames?
Take a look.

Edit: What I was talking about in post #47 is the frames, not seconds. Please don't change the way you have it now, as you have stated above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
I don't insert 2 seconds of silence before the audio part, but I leave this to users, to have full flexibility about this hidden pretrack, even if it is only 2 seconds long. This allows the exported files to have completely the same time offsets as they are in Reaper.
I wouldn't want to lose any of the flexibility that you have given us

Sorry if there was any confusion in those pics

Take a look in the pics below. It's the last digits (Frames) that I was talking about, not the seconds.





Thanks, Wyatt

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Old 05-20-2011, 02:19 PM   #52
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But when you will move the media item, the markers will not move.
I did some research, and found out by clicking on the ripple editing button twice, or have it set to "ripple editing enabled for all tracks" on the main toolbar, enables markers to move with the items. Check it out.

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Old 05-20-2011, 04:02 PM   #53
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great!
will this be a SWS action?
I wish it would. It would fit very conveniently into the SWS Marker Utilities or Project Management when DDP Export is selected.

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Old 05-20-2011, 05:34 PM   #54
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There is still a bit of a question what exactly the script should do to be the most useful in combination with the DDP export.

Myself I totally haven't a clue about DDP, so I just try to deliver what's asked for by Wyatt.
The most current version places the existing items on track 1 in the way that the first item starts at 2 seconds in and each subsequent item follows with a 2 seconds break between items.
It places markers called "# [active take name)" at each item's start and it places markers called "!" at project start and at each item's end. (alas I can't color them based on type, that would have been nice).

We also have a version which only puts the "#" markers. Which would be "it" or would you need both? Or would it even need to do something entirely else we didn't think about?

More questions:
All markers that exist prior to running the script will get deleted at the moment. I am thinking about maybe prompt to save prior markers in an SWS Marker set if they exist (if I can do that, but I'd think so), would that be useful/worth the effort?

Should it directly open the render to file dialog, or would you folks rather go through the SWS marker list first anyway (to give your tracks a name or whatdoIknow) and the render dialog would just get in the way?
I tried to let the script automatically open SWS marker list, but the action to do so is a toggle, so I can't do that (if you had it open prior the script it would be closed by the script, would be annoying).


This is how they look in action at the moment:



EDIT: Ooops, I should have changed the timeline to m:s for the screencast... yeah, well... /edit

I am still optimizing, but here are the Python-ReaScript versions for you to play with and gather ideas. Python is necessary for both.

See the attached zip file.
EDIT: the attached zip now includes a script for CD burn preparing. It puts all items end-to-end starting at zero and places markers named "# [take name]" at each item start. /edit

Please share your thoughts. As said, I can't decide anything, because I just don't know what's best, but I have immense fun with this project as a brain twister. Any input welcome.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Prepare track 1 for DDP export bundle.zip (4.6 KB, 234 views)

Last edited by gofer; 05-25-2011 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Updated with attachment of the most current versions
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Old 05-22-2011, 11:31 AM   #55
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Excellent work gofer. I cant thank you enough for doing this. I've tested the latest one, and everything is working as expected. I might add, not only will this help with DDP export, but will also do a quick automated process for anyone wanting to quickly burn a CD using the cue/bin format.

I know that this is off topic a little, but users using the cue/bin format must use cdrecord/cdrtools for the burning method instead of Native CD Burning, when using Windows, because the Windows native method adds 2 secs at the beginning, thus it might add 4 secs when using the script.



I'm not sure about Mac, but I will check it and post back.

I'd be curious to receive some feedback from Sergej Marsnjak, and what he thinks.

Sergej, I've sent you a couple of PM's.

Many Thanks, Wyatt

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Old 05-24-2011, 01:48 PM   #56
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Sergej,
I'm beginning to wonder if this is a rounding error in Reaper, or has something to do with frames?
Yes, rounding problem. I am truncating (floor) instead of rounding. I will correct this as soon as possible.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:57 PM   #57
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There is still a bit of a question what exactly the script should do to be the most useful in combination with the DDP export.
That's great Gofer. Very useful.

I must just warn that, currently, spaces after # are not ignored, so the first space comes into the track title. However, as CD TEXT is not yet (and it may never be) implemented, this does not change anything. Also, I will trim the spaces around the texts in the next release of the DDP plugin.

Also, if possible (I don't know anything about the actions and scripts in Reaper), it would be good to add ISRC column in the list, as ISRC numbers can be used on CD tracks. To specify ISRC in the marker name, you can use any of the following syntaxes:

#My song title|ISRC=USX121100001
#ISRC=USX121100001|My song title
#ISRC=USX121100001

ISRC is an optional unique track identification, so a particular song can be traced with this ID.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:00 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
I did some research, and found out by clicking on the ripple editing button twice, or have it set to "ripple editing enabled for all tracks" on the main toolbar, enables markers to move with the items. Check it out.
Wow, I wasn't aware of that. So the DDP import is completely possible now. Thanks.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #59
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I know that this is off topic a little, but users using the cue/bin format must use cdrecord/cdrtools for the burning method instead of Native CD Burning, when using Windows, because the Windows native method adds 2 secs at the beginning, thus it might add 4 secs when using the script.

I'm not sure about Mac, but I will check it and post back.

I'd be curious to receive some feedback from Sergej Marsnjak, and what he thinks.
Yes, it is common for the CD burning programs to add 2 seconds of silence, that's because ordinary users don't know anything about the Red Book. But the program developers are also normally not aware about the advanced users who want total control.

But those programs also add 2 seconds of silence before all tracks, so native burning can "destroy" gaps between the songs also. Native burning seam to assume that you put tracks one after another without any gap. So yes, cdrecord can be one of the only possible ways to record specially prepared CDs. (Although I didn't use it yet)

I must think of an option to record the CD directly from the DDP. I will contact the author of Reaburn. It would be good if Reaburn can be used to record DDP.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:30 PM   #60
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That's great Gofer. Very useful.

I must just warn that, currently, spaces after # are not ignored, so the first space comes into the track title. However, as CD TEXT is not yet (and it may never be) implemented, this does not change anything. Also, I will trim the spaces around the texts in the next release of the DDP plugin.

Also, if possible (I don't know anything about the actions and scripts in Reaper), it would be good to add ISRC column in the list, as ISRC numbers can be used on CD tracks. To specify ISRC in the marker name, you can use any of the following syntaxes:

#My song title|ISRC=USX121100001
#ISRC=USX121100001|My song title
#ISRC=USX121100001

ISRC is an optional unique track identification, so a particular song can be traced with this ID.
Thanks for the nice comments. It would be no problem at all for me to not do the space after the #. I added it just for better readability.

As far as the ISRC is concerned, I think it's best to leave that part to the user. The script takes whatever is the active take's name (if the items are created by importing files that'll be the file name). I could automatically suffix |ISRC= to the marker name or something, but if the file was named "My song title|ISRC=USX121100001" (or one of the other syntaxes) to begin with that would be more an annoyance than helpful I guess.
I think it's more convenient for the user to either name the files accordingly, or edit the marker names before exporting.


I changed the attachment to post #54. It now includes a script for CD burn preparing which puts all items end-to-end starting at zero and places markers named "# [take name]" at each item start.

Last edited by gofer; 05-24-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:09 PM   #61
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Thanks Guys.

The Windows XP native method seems to not work at all for me, and I've tried on two different Plextor drives, that I know is working correctly in Samplitude, WaveLab, and others. These other CD programs don't rely on Windows native CD method, as most of them use their own driver. Hmmmmm... I'll do some more checking. I've had no problem using Reaper's cdrecord/tools.

Maybe it's the media I'm using. I'll try something different and post back.

Thanks, Wyatt

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Old 06-10-2011, 02:02 AM   #62
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hello,

i've just found out that v4 has a DDP export feature and wanted to test it.

first of all thanks very much to all involved for making this possible.

as a suggestion for CD-TEXT fields (I've ended doing this with DDP Creator instead of Reaper). a special "CD-Track Marker" would be great. When inserting it, it would create a new track, and make it possible to enter CD-TEXT info (ISRC,Title,Performer,Songwriter,Composer,Arranger ,Message). Those could be used when either exporting to CUE/WAV or DDP. It could also be possible to switch to Index 0 for pre-gap.

When finally exporting the image, the title of the disc and performer could be entered.

it's kind of selfish, but it's how i'd like it

anyway, thanks again for this plugin.

benoit
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:08 PM   #63
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Default V4 Beta 9 DDP Import

In beta 9, DDP import was added. This is great! Thanks!

Here's one problem, the cues (Markers) that are written in the dat file are not the same as the export. Here's some screen shots.

The first song is correct.



Song two is not lined up right. The cues should line up with the markers?


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Old 06-13-2011, 03:28 PM   #64
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I am now on the phone browser, and I'll look at this tomorrow.
However, CD indices cannot be at any position, but they are aligned to 1/75 of the second at the export. So, all the imported cues may not be aligned with the markers. Is this the reason?
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:37 PM   #65
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And yes, CD-TEXT is now supported. With both export and import. Please read the help text in the DDP render dialog about the marker names.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:38 PM   #66
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I am now on the phone browser, and I'll look at this tomorrow.
However, CD indices cannot be at any position, but they are aligned to 1/75 of the second at the export. So, all the imported cues may not be aligned with the markers. Is this the reason?
Sergej,

I'm not sure. The cues should be the same as the markers, right?

Maybe you'll know more when you have a look when you get a chance.

Anyway, this is great. Many thanks, Wyatt
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:43 PM   #67
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It's hard to find out, since Reaper doesn't show CD Frames on the ruler.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:47 PM   #68
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Sergej,

I'm not sure. The cues should be the same as the markers, right?

Maybe you'll know more when you have a look when you get a chance.

Anyway, this is great. Many thanks, Wyatt
No, the users cat put the markers anywhere, as REAPER does not force any alignment (other that snap). That's why the DDP export plugin does this aligning automaticaly. So in the DDP files, all the INDEX positions are aligned to CD frame size, that is 1/75th of a second. And when importing back, they may seem misaligned with the original markers. But this only means, that markers were not properly aligned at the first place. If you put markers exactly at the N*1/75 positions, they will be properly aligned and the cues will match. Also, the markers aligned with the whole seconds, will also be aligned.

In your case, there is a cue at 5:12.226, and marker at 5:12.222.
0.222*75 = 16.65, that gets aligned to 17, so the cue is in fact at 5:12 + 17/75 = 5:12 + 0.226666 = 5:12.226666.
The other cue at 0:02.000 is already aligned to 1/75 second.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:50 PM   #69
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It's hard to find out, since Reaper doesn't show CD Frames on the ruler.
We must make a FR for this
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:56 PM   #70
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Soon I'll also implement editable marker list window, with easier editing of texts and with drop-downs for genre and language.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:58 PM   #71
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We must make a FR for this
Yeah, I think your right. This must be where the problem is, I think?

If Reaper had CD Frames, then when you insert markers, they could be snapped to the CD frames, then everything would be correct, right?
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:09 PM   #72
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Yeah, I think your right. This must be where the problem is, I think?

If Reaper had CD Frames, then when you insert markers, they could be snapped to the CD frames, then everything would be correct, right?
Currently the only workaround I can think of, is to make Project settings with BPM 240 and Time signature of 1 / 75. With this, we can get the CD frame alignment.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:02 AM   #73
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IMPORTANT

I would like all the interested users to test the new CD-TEXT feature, as thoroughly as possible. CD-TEXT is poorly documented, so I cannot guarantee that everything is working perfectly.
Please test and compare it with different CD-TEXT capable programs.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:16 AM   #74
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Don't know if it's helpful or if I'm misunderstanding "CD-TEXT".

When I was once creating a CD with CD-Text I did it using cuesheets and for that I found a very good explanation (but only in german, sorry):
http://mitglied.multimania.de/big_sleepy/cuesheet.htm
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:27 PM   #75
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Default CD Frames

This message is for the Developers at Cockos.

Can you guys please add CD Frames, and actions to move items start to the nearest frame? And what about the markers?

It would also be nice if we could have a discussion about this.

I have some Project .RPP files I can send you for comparison, if needed.

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:27 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by musikai View Post
Don't know if it's helpful or if I'm misunderstanding "CD-TEXT".

When I was once creating a CD with CD-Text I did it using cuesheets and for that I found a very good explanation (but only in german, sorry):
http://mitglied.multimania.de/big_sleepy/cuesheet.htm
Thanks, but this is another usage of CD-TEXT. Many CD burners use CUE files to describe CD tracks and also CD-TEXT metadata. They are in textual format, so anyone can write them by hand.

But DDP spec does not cover CD-TEXT, DDP only includes the CD-TEXT file. And this included file is not the textual CUE file, but must be in the actual binary CD-TEXT format that is written on the audio CD.

The format for the binary CD-TEXT files is documented in the Red book specification, which unfortunately is not for free. As I cannot afford to buy this Red book, I can only get the information by scraps of documentation over the internet and some reverse engineering.

But, as both binary CD-TEXT file and textual CUE file are intended to be written on the audio CD, they both include the same metadata, as is TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER etc.

(P.S.: I can understand German quite well)
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:04 PM   #77
musikai
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Thanx for eplaining so nicely!

About the RedBook standard you surely already found this document and the link for the pdf.
http://club.myce.com/f61/closest-thi...tandard-49264/
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:17 PM   #78
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Thanx for eplaining so nicely!

About the RedBook standard you surely already found this document and the link for the pdf.
http://club.myce.com/f61/closest-thi...tandard-49264/
I know this page and I tried it before, but that link doesn't work

However, I implemented this CD-TEXT anyway, and I think it works Ok, but now I please other people to test it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:40 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
I know this page and I tried it before, but that link doesn't work

However, I implemented this CD-TEXT anyway, and I think it works Ok, but now I please other people to test it.
Hi Sergej,

As you know, I've been trying to work out how to get the frames right. Reaper needs CD Frames!

I will do some CD Text test, and post back the results as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:15 PM   #80
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As you know, I've been trying to work out how to get the frames right. Reaper needs CD Frames!
Yes, we should make a feature request for the CD time format, and we hope it will be noticed. I cannot force the development team to implement this with the higher priority.
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I will do some CD Text test, and post back the results as soon as I get a chance.
Thanks.
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