Old 04-25-2017, 10:40 AM   #121
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Are you serious? You think the rehearsal room sounds better than an album?

If live audio sounds so great, why aren't albums recorded with binaural reference-quality microphones setups? Why is anything EQ'd, or compressed?
OT: For whatever reason, I find myself searching out live recordings over studio recordings as of late. That's not a statement that live is sonically better, I've just changed over the years and like them better overall.

More OT... Since I record almost every rehearsal (two mics) in prep for our upcoming new release to be formally recorded, the quality and sonics of the room mics are becoming good enough that I'm considering just adding the close mics and doing a more live style recording. I doubt I'll fully go that route but there tends to be some magic that both appears and goes missing with the more formal studio approach (though I'll probably do it that way anyway).

I'm not overly concerned about it either way since one reason I stopped going to studios years ago was precisely because I/we were getting better results on our own and lost any reason to pay for studio time/engineers.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:53 AM   #122
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OT: For whatever reason, I find myself searching out live recordings over studio recordings as of late. That's not a statement that live is sonically better, I've just changed over the years and like them better overall.

More OT... Since I record almost every rehearsal (two mics) in prep for our upcoming new release to be formally recorded, the quality and sonics of the room mics are becoming good enough that I'm considering just adding the close mics and doing a more live style recording. I doubt I'll fully go that route but there tends to be some magic that both appears and goes missing with the more formal studio approach (though I'll probably do it that way anyway).

I'm not overly concerned about it either way since one reason I stopped going to studios years ago was precisely because I/we were getting better results on our own and lost any reason to pay for studio time/engineers.
Yes, but that is still the sound of "flawed" electronic systems translating pressure waves, and if you record it you are still stuck with how the storage medium encodes that information (whether tape, digital or wax cylinder).

Orchestras and chamber music sound better with the sound going direct from instrument to ears, because that's what they are designed for, but outside of acoustic sets a band's sound is almost entirely made from "flawed" ways of capturing sound - from microphones to pickups to cables to amps etc...
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:15 AM   #123
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OT: For whatever reason, I find myself searching out live recordings over studio recordings as of late. That's not a statement that live is sonically better, I've just changed over the years and like them better overall.

More OT... Since I record almost every rehearsal (two mics) in prep for our upcoming new release to be formally recorded, the quality and sonics of the room mics are becoming good enough that I'm considering just adding the close mics and doing a more live style recording. I doubt I'll fully go that route but there tends to be some magic that both appears and goes missing with the more formal studio approach (though I'll probably do it that way anyway).

I'm not overly concerned about it either way since one reason I stopped going to studios years ago was precisely because I/we were getting better results on our own and lost any reason to pay for studio time/engineers.
I think this illustrates both how much more important the musical elements are than perfect fidelity and how difficult it can be to capture all the musical elements in a studio setting.

That magic moment captured live or the magic demo. It's always a case of preferring the content in spite of the flaws right. Not the other way around. Someone will probably want to start talking about how some lo-fi sound colors something in a cool way but that's a different subject I think.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of a mistake or some dirtiness adding a certain charm to a recording that would be lost if it were cleaned up. But I think there are a lot more cases where we're happy to compromise some fidelity for the better performance but we would sure prefer a perfect scenario if it were possible.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:17 AM   #124
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Yes, but that is still the sound of "flawed" electronic systems translating pressure waves, and if you record it you are still stuck with how the storage medium encodes that information (whether tape, digital or wax cylinder).

Orchestras and chamber music sound better with the sound going direct from instrument to ears, because that's what they are designed for, but outside of acoustic sets a band's sound is almost entirely made from "flawed" ways of capturing sound - from microphones to pickups to cables to amps etc...
That's why I prepended "OT:"
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:27 AM   #125
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I think this illustrates both how much more important the musical elements are than perfect fidelity and how difficult it can be to capture all the musical elements in a studio setting.
Being involved in recording of some sort for >40 years now about the best I can say is that it began with wanting to capture a performance because before recording you had to go see the person(s) perform live. To be able to hear a performer who is thousands of miles away that you'd never been able to hear perform (before recording) was a bit of a revolution.

Because of that there was the desire to capture that as accurately as possible. However, that likely will never be truly possible and along the way, we also found that we could do other things to enhance the experience (to make up the difference) in such a way that whether these enhancements actually occurred in the original performance became less and less important.

IOW, the recording process became part of the presentation or better yet, part of the illusion (even the live performance is creating some type of illusion). Once this occurred sounding like you were literally sitting there became less critical, so much so that I've been to live performances I enjoyed less than the studio recording because they couldn't actually recreate that studio magic experience live.

All that being said takes me back to the original point I was making in the very beginning (albeit completely overlooked by some), find what matters the most, spend your time on those things, don't spend days worrying about some frequency you'll likely never hear in all but the rarest of circumstances. If you do run into such rare issues, fix them and move on but don't treat them as common until they are common and don't spend your life making musical decisions with your eyes in spite of you ears.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:28 AM   #126
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Someone will probably want to start talking about how some lo-fi sound colors something in a cool way but that's a different subject I think.
I dunno, it all ties in with how music is ultimately about aesthetics, not an attempt to capture acoustic sounds as closely as possible.

I know that when I am playing with a band in a rehearsal room, or just playing acoustic guitar by myself, I'm not really hearing the music as an objective measurement device. I am projecting something, interacting with the music, in an entirely subjective way that no device could capture. I feel that mixing is about enhancing that, by and large, so by making captured sounds even less like the source the mixing engineer is making it sound more like it would in my head if I were there in the studio.

If that makes any sense...
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:34 AM   #127
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That's absolutely one of the variables!

Sometimes the direct sound coming out of the instrument is a compromise compared to the version in your head.

I agree with all of that.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:45 AM   #128
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I dunno, it all ties in with how music is ultimately about aesthetics, not an attempt to capture acoustic sounds as closely as possible.
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That's absolutely one of the variables!

Sometimes the direct sound coming out of the instrument is a compromise compared to the version in your head.

I agree with all of that.
I love sonic minutia and like to think all that paying attention to minute details I do eventually ends up in an experience the user enjoys and doesn't need to care about but at the end of the day, chances are about 90% of the things we musical geeks care about, probably doesn't really matter as much as we'd like it to. I noticed that when participating in some of the mixing contests, I may have done 50 minute and what I thought were very important things, only to find maybe 2 out of 50 were even noticed by the listeners even though they were musical geeks themselves.
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:00 PM   #129
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I noticed that when participating in some of the mixing contests, I may have done 50 minute and what I thought were very important things, only to find maybe 2 out of 50 were even noticed by the listeners even though they were musical geeks themselves.
But the whole would still feel different if you only did 2 out of those 50 things!
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:13 PM   #130
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Sometimes the direct sound coming out of the instrument is a compromise compared to the version in your head.
I think it's more than that. Everything we hear is a psychological dialogue between pressure waves and how we interpret them. Patterns of pressure waves that we perceive as containing social information, such as speech and music, even more so.

It's just as much about what we bring to that information as it is the information itself.

I constantly hear producers and engineers talking about trying to "capture the energy in the room", and this is what I'm talking about. It's a lot more than accurate reproduction of pressure waves.
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:19 PM   #131
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But the whole would still feel different if you only did 2 out of those 50 things!
Oh, I'm not stoppin' but it was a little bit of a psychological eye opener.
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:45 PM   #132
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The one downside when you start learning to play an instrument is that you never listen to music in the same way again. That happens again when you start learning about music production. One starts to care about it in a different way, too.

Whether we like it or not, most of the world doesn't listen the way we listen. For them it's not about how well it was produced, it's about whether it says something to them or whether it makes them want to dance and a bit of aliassing here or there doesn't change that for them.
I miss that way of listening sometimes.

Perhaps the difficulty in capturing 'the energy in the room' is because there's more to it than just hearing it. I've been to gigs that were captured for DVD release that were outstanding gigs, but the DVD didn't have 'it'. It's a bit like watching a live football match on TV. Even with ultra HD, it still isn't the same as being in the stadium.
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Old 04-25-2017, 01:12 PM   #133
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Sometimes the direct sound coming out of the instrument is a compromise compared to the version in your head.
Yes,because your head is not producing any sound-just monitoring was is produced by an instrument.

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No, that's completely wrong. I don't perceive live audio to be "better" just more accurate.
Interesting-in what ways= "more accurate?" <> confused...

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OT: For whatever reason, I find myself searching out live recordings over studio recordings as of late. That's not a statement that live is sonically better, I've just changed over the years and like them better overall.
Liking is a personal preference-a computer does not "like" anything-- there's no personality at all-just binary eh..

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Yes, but that is still the sound of "flawed" electronic systems translating pressure waves, and if you record it you are still stuck with how the storage medium encodes that information (whether tape, digital or wax cylinder).
The companies told me their devices was top notch qaulities! did they lie?!!

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But I think there are a lot more cases where we're happy to compromise some fidelity for the better performance but we would sure prefer a perfect scenario if it were possible.
Nope,not happy with any compromises! the current systems just passes,but I reckon they could be improved upon... =rea "frequency modulation" anyone>?

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I constantly hear producers and engineers talking about trying to "capture the energy in the room", and this is what I'm talking about. It's a lot more than accurate reproduction of pressure waves.
Yes-this is why recording 1st came about-- the desire to capture a performance/vocal instruments..and the 'environment' that surrounds it.. go and check the very 1st recordings the quality was extremely low--modern computers have just increased 'capture' resolutions.It's all rea lly down to resolutions after all.
Vintage photography confirms this also-- look at the super high res digital cameras these days-- but it's also the rea son why movie cgi still looks and acts `fake`.. it's very close,but just not real enough..yet...

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The one downside when you start learning to play an instrument is that you never listen to music in the same way again. That happens again when you start learning about music production. One starts to care about it in a different way, too.
I found that an 'upside' - learning some instruments made me zoom in to sonic details even more than just being a casual consuming 'listener'.
It also lead me to learn the process of sound generation itself.
Forever greatfull,no doubt.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:29 PM   #134
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Yes-this is why recording 1st came about-- the desire to capture a performance/vocal instruments..and the 'environment' that surrounds it.. go and check the very 1st recordings the quality was extremely low--modern computers have just increased 'capture' resolutions.It's all rea lly down to resolutions after all.
Vintage photography confirms this also-- look at the super high res digital cameras these days-- but it's also the rea son why movie cgi still looks and acts `fake`.. it's very close,but just not real enough..yet...
You didn't get my point. When I said the "energy" in the room, I wasn't talking about the physical energy of pressure waves.

And your point about resolution isn't really it either. There are many amazing recordings from the 30's onward, many far better than popular modern recordings. People only think of them as being inferior because the storage media limit how well those recordings translate.

Digital audio storage will always be limited by the analogue front end and reproduction systems that record and play it. It is not a case of ever increasing sample rates and bit depth giving us ever more "realistic" recordings.

Just as image resolution is not the bottleneck for how realistic CGI is. Oh, and modern digital SLR's don't have more "resolution" than vintage camera film either.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:46 PM   #135
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You didn't get my point. When I said the "energy" in the room, I wasn't talking about the physical energy of pressure waves.

And your point about resolution isn't really it either.
Yes,i totally got your meaning there-your delving into metaphysical territory though-some have 0 believe in this field-the very talk of it may even scare some people..lol.
In that sense,the natural ambience is energetically imprinted into all signals from what I gather,but this is wildy offtopic now.
I disagree about resolutions.
If the difference is not resolution or "metaphysics" -then what is it exactly I wonder??

Why do companies and developers seek to "improve" all the while if everything is perfect right now?
Oversampling sells many products by itself,i'm sure you know this? what is the purpose of such things if it bears no actual difference to results?

Oh-and seeing how karbomusic like to delete posts,this appears he/she doubts their own 'words'..do you doubt your's judders?
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Old 04-25-2017, 03:15 PM   #136
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Yes,i totally got your meaning there-your delving into metaphysical territory though-some have 0 believe in this field-the very talk of it may even scare some people..lol.
In that sense,the natural ambience is energetically imprinted into all signals from what I gather,but this is wildy offtopic now.
I disagree about resolutions.
If the difference is not resolution or "metaphysics" -then what is it exactly I wonder??
Not metaphysics, psychology.

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Hearing is not a purely mechanical phenomenon of wave propagation, but is also a sensory and perceptual event; in other words, when a person hears something, that something arrives at the ear as a mechanical sound wave traveling through the air, but within the ear it is transformed into neural action potentials. These nerve pulses then travel to the brain where they are perceived. Hence, in many problems in acoustics, such as for audio processing, it is advantageous to take into account not just the mechanics of the environment, but also the fact that both the ear and the brain are involved in a person’s listening experience.

[...]

The term "psychoacoustics" also arises in discussions about cognitive psychology and the effects that personal expectations, prejudices, and predispositions may have on listeners' relative evaluations and comparisons of sonic aesthetics and acuity and on listeners' varying determinations about the relative qualities of various musical instruments and performers. The expression that one "hears what one wants (or expects) to hear" may pertain in such discussions.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

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Why do companies and developers seek to "improve" all the while if everything is perfect right now?
Oversampling sells many products by itself,i'm sure you know this? what is the purpose of such things if it bears no actual difference to results?
I'll entertain your hyperbolic straw man

To your first point: why are there people who prefer the audio equipment from the 1950's to modern equipment? Or why are there people who prefer audio equipment from the 1970's to either modern or 1950's equipment? Why are professionals still using studio monitors designed in the 1980's, or microphones designed in the 1940's?

How much is improvement, and how much is changing cultural aesthetics?

We can say that storage media have improved in terms of fidelity, but what about all the analogue front end and speakers? Some novel designs have come out, but why aren't they universally embraced?

Not sure what your point about oversampling is getting at. It is addressing shortfalls in digital audio processing, but it has its own pitfalls.

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Oh-and seeing how karbomusic like to delete posts,this appears he/she doubts their own 'words'..do you doubt your's judders?
Why so confrontational? Can't we all have a civilised conversation?
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Old 04-25-2017, 03:38 PM   #137
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Not sure what your point about oversampling is getting at. It is addressing shortfalls in digital audio processing, but it has its own pitfalls...

Why so confrontational? Can't we all have a civilised conversation?
Ok-so another admittance about 'shortfalls' -interesting,thanks.
Lol-there is no conflict here>trying to have civil discussion,kinda ontopic..just noticed some posting behaviour,that's all.
Sampling in general interests me a lot.

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Old 04-25-2017, 03:55 PM   #138
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Ok-so another admittance about 'shortfalls' -interesting,thanks.
Lol-there is no conflict here>trying to have civil discussion,kinda ontopic..just noticed some posting behaviour,that's all.
Sampling in general interests me a lot.
I don't get why that is "admitting" anything?

I'm pretty sure I never said digital sampling is perfect.

Can we continue to create flatter and more neutral capture and playback devices? Of course we can!

The point earlier (I think it might have been Serr) was that a lot of so-called "improvements" are snake oil designed to get people to buy new stereos
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:26 PM   #139
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Sampling in general interests me a lot.
If you want info about the modern state of DAC converters in practice, Gearslutz has some experts. Casey of Bricasti makes/sells a DAC (and includes one in the M7) and is always willing to answer questions.

I haven't followed this whole thread, but Casey and Paul Frindle are getting into some details in the later pages: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...ruth-myth.html

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Old 04-25-2017, 06:31 PM   #140
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Lol! wtf-that's a 57page 7yr old thread! I haven't got 'time' for that= am tryingtomakemusic here m8. =)
Thnx though-

These wiki links are generally usefull in summary terms of hz/voltages/oscillations and theories perhaps>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variab...ncy_oscillator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessel_function
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:44 PM   #141
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Lol! wtf-that's a 57page 7yr old thread! I haven't got 'time' for that= am tryingtomakemusic here m8. =)
Thnx though-
It's always worth taking the time to read what Paul Frindle has to say
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Old 04-25-2017, 06:49 PM   #142
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Oh-and seeing how karbomusic like to delete posts,this appears he/she doubts their own 'words'..do you doubt your's judders?
I didn't feel what I posted added any value so I deleted it, that simple - advice we should all consider from time to time if you get my drift. Ergo, you can at minimum trust my posting intentions are sincere vs intellectual pee-pee measuring.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:51 AM   #143
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You didn't get my point. When I said the "energy" in the room, I wasn't talking about the physical energy of pressure waves.

And your point about resolution isn't really it either. There are many amazing recordings from the 30's onward, many far better than popular modern recordings. People only think of them as being inferior because the storage media limit how well those recordings translate.

Digital audio storage will always be limited by the analogue front end and reproduction systems that record and play it. It is not a case of ever increasing sample rates and bit depth giving us ever more "realistic" recordings.

Just as image resolution is not the bottleneck for how realistic CGI is. Oh, and modern digital SLR's don't have more "resolution" than vintage camera film either.
I agree with you about much of this but I want to make a geeky point that may actually take this in a non-geeky direction.

You write "Oh, and modern digital SLR's don't have more "resolution" than vintage camera film either". Well that's a very complex discussion but actually for many people in a lot of circumstances the "resolution" of a modern DSLR is probably better than film. I am a photographer so I know the issues regarding film format and dynamic range etc. etc. but here's my non-geeky point. Digital photography technology (both when capturing and post processing) is such that the gap between "pro" and "amateur" is closing. The situation is similar in audio, right?

Now here's my point. Both media (and this could be extended to other forms of expression too) are now facing a crisis due I think to the sheer volume of output. Combine that with the change in distribution and it is hard not to feel that people's ability to make emotional sense of all this content is being stretched.

Now I am totally in favour of democratising all access to forms of expression but does anyone agree with me that it is getting harder to know what energy to try to create in the first place that stands any hope of getting an audience?
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:00 AM   #144
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I am a photographer so I know the issues regarding film format and dynamic range etc. etc. but here's my non-geeky point.
I am too (or was but still have all my glass/gear) and lived through that debacle back in the mid-2000s. What fun and yes there are an awful lot of parallels.


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Now I am totally in favour of democratising all access to forms of expression but does anyone agree with me that it is getting harder to know what energy to try to create in the first place that stands any hope of getting an audience?
I think the tools/formats/gear we have now is far, far superior than 99.9% of the talent using it. That isn't a slight on the users, just saying (as I've maintained throughout the thread), having something worthwhile to record, that someone besides yourself (proverbial you) actually wants to listen to, is a much bigger challenge than whether or not one can get 21kHz onto a CD. And that also isn't a slight on the geek part of the 21kHz discussion, it's simply ranking it where it belongs.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:51 AM   #145
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Yes,i totally got your meaning there-your delving into metaphysical territory though-some have 0 believe in this field-the very talk of it may even scare some people..lol.
In that sense,the natural ambience is energetically imprinted into all signals from what I gather,but this is wildy offtopic now.
I disagree about resolutions.
...
Yes, that esoterical nonsense scares me off. Everyone should be afraid of stupidity. Especially nowadays...

AND you should take your time to read that Paul Frindle thread on gearslutz. (AND understand what he says.) If you dont read and understand you are not really interested in learning.

Before you should watch and understand this (and its implications):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

That is the standard of what you need to need to know to produce music in the digital domain. You said, you tried to...
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Last edited by haervo; 04-26-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:55 AM   #146
Bri1
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Yes, that esoterical nonsense scares me off. Everyone should be afraid of stupidity. Especially nowadays...

AND you should take your time to read that Paul Frindle thread on gearslutz. (AND understand what he says.) If you dont read and understand you are not really interested in learning.
Heh-ok.
I will try to further learning-cheerz haervo.
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