Old 04-16-2014, 01:54 PM   #1
axeman
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Default recording before 0:00 (in pre-roll)?

Greetings,

I've received a MIDI file of a complex meter and tempo map for a tune I have to record and it starts right at absolute zero (0:00). The problem is that two guitar parts need to enter right at the beginning and I would normally insist on having at least a measure of pre-roll in order to allow these parts to come in at least a hair ahead of the first downbeat.

With this in mind, I'm seeking assistance in determining the best way to functionally add pre-roll, but with the ability to easily maintain the master timing reference of the input file. I was thinking about inserting a measure at the beginning--just for recording these particular guitar tracks--and then ensuring that the rest of the timing reference remained intact, however the result will eventually have to be imported back into Pro Tools and I'd like to use a methodology that will make the entire process as easy and painless as possible.

Is there any easier/better/more efficient way of doing this? (I realize that, should any program come in before 0:00, the entire Pro Tools tracks will most likely have to be offset to compensate, but I suppose that should be OK once everything is tracked against the corresponding metronome.

Any guidance in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot and take care,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:38 AM   #2
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Default how about moving the entire program including the master track?

Hi again,

As I haven't received any responses yet, I tried experimenting with a few things and am now wondering if there is a way to move the entire program ahead by one measure--including the master track (that already has all the complex time and tempo mapping info. Simply sliding everything forward doesn't do the trick as the time/tempo map doesn't move accordingly, but selecting the first measure and selecting the "Insert > Empty space at time selection" seems like it may work. Does this seem like an accurate/valid approach? (If so, I guess I'll have to calculate the corresponding samples offset to keep the REAPER and Pro Tools files in sync.)

Thanks a lot and take care,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:54 AM   #3
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Insert Empty space at time selection has been my solution to this kind of issue. But, on the few projects I had to do it, I haven't had really complicated tempo maps going. In those cases everything, including the few time signature changes, seemed to move just fine.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:08 AM   #4
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Can you change the start time in project settings?

As a complete side issue, I listened to Cantus Firmus last week in anticipation of the 'new release' ... how's that coming along?

Peter

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Old 04-17-2014, 12:16 PM   #5
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You may also want to try:

Project Settings: Project Start Measure -1

Turn on Ripple Editing for all tracks (there's an icon in the main toolbar)

Select all items (Ctrl/Cmd A) then drag your imported file to start at measure 0.

Maybe that'll work? That should move all tempo markers and regular markers etc...

Edit: You may also need to turn on 'Envelope points move with media items'
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:52 PM   #6
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Default thanks for the feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
Insert Empty space at time selection has been my solution to this kind of issue. But, on the few projects I had to do it, I haven't had really complicated tempo maps going. In those cases everything, including the few time signature changes, seemed to move just fine.
Thanks for letting me know that this solution worked OK for you. My initial test (using a simpler file than the one I need to address imminently) seemed to look like it worked OK, so I think I'm going to go ahead and try this methodology first. Will report back on how it goes.

All the best,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:59 PM   #7
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Default thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulich View Post
Can you change the start time in project settings?

As a complete side issue, I listened to Cantus Firmus last week in anticipation of the 'new release' ... how's that coming along?

Peter
Hey Peter,

Thanks for the feedback. I tried experimenting with changing the project start time, but couldn't find a way to use this approach to create additional space at the beginning as needed here.

Really appreciate your asking about the new Advent release too. Coincidentally, I'm planning on recording my guitar parts for the closing piece on the album this weekend--and this is why I'm asking for help here. Once I'm done with this one, I'd estimate that 95% of my recording for the entire album will be finished. If all goes well, we hope to have everything done and released by sometime this autumn. Also, if you're interested in checking out a preview, here's one we posted a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJfNgeszIs

(Apologies for the now-inaccurate target release date you'll see for the album there. We've run into a lot of unforeseen delays that pushed things back about another year or so.)

Take care and thanks again,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:01 PM   #8
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Default much appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
You may also want to try:

Project Settings: Project Start Measure -1

Turn on Ripple Editing for all tracks (there's an icon in the main toolbar)

Select all items (Ctrl/Cmd A) then drag your imported file to start at measure 0.

Maybe that'll work? That should move all tempo markers and regular markers etc...

Edit: You may also need to turn on 'Envelope points move with media items'
Hi,

While I think the approach mentioned above seems like it should work, I'll definitely keep this in mind as an alternate methodology if any problems arise.

Thanks a lot and take care,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:13 PM   #9
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I was thinking you could set up a new project starting at - 1 or more measures, place the cursor on 0 and then import your files.

I've seen the Advent Preview - mighty vocals as I recall; so I'm really looking forward to this one. Posted about it on the It Bites and Dunnery forums at the time.

I've also copied your Reaper tutorials ... lots of time on my hands I expect .

P
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulich View Post
I was thinking you could set up a new project starting at - 1 or more measures, place the cursor on 0 and then import your files.

I've seen the Advent Preview - mighty vocals as I recall; so I'm really looking forward to this one. Posted about it on the It Bites and Dunnery forums at the time.

I've also copied your Reaper tutorials ... lots of time on my hands I expect .

P
Hi again Peter,

That's actually an excellent idea, thanks. Had I not already inserted the reference MIDI file and several Pro Tools tracks at 0:00 in the first place--and then inserted about 30 empty items to hold all the guitar tracks I plan to record on the same timing reference--this would have been the easiest solution for sure.

As I just came upstairs from my second-to-last practice session for the recording, I went ahead and tried a few operations to get what I wanted. Although I originally thought highlighting the first measure and selecting "Insert > Empty space at time selection" would do the trick, it ended up inserting a 4/4 measure at 120 BPM--but, as the piece opens with a 5/4 measure at 84 BPM, that result was unusable. I tried modifying the start time/measure and found I could go negative, but that didn't really help either.

Finally, I tried selecting the second measure (also 5/4, as is the third, after which it changes), and selecting "Insert > Empty space at time selection"--resulting in a new blank second measure of 84 BPM in 5/4. After that, I had to drag all the first-measure items to the new second measure and then heal all the splits. But, after that, everything lined up perfectly and I now have a nice new 5/4 count-off measure and the ability to come in a little early with the opening guitar parts.

Thanks a lot for the kind feedback on the Advent album preview--and also for sharing it on the It Bites and Francis Dunnery forums too! Glad to hear that you enjoyed the REAPER tutorials as well.

All the best,


Alan
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Old 04-17-2014, 04:55 PM   #11
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I'm glad to hear that you got it working in the end. That's an odd thing about not being able to change the time signature at the start after the empty space insert. My bad not noticing that the empty space indeed seems to be in 4/4, my excuse being that I usually always start at 4/4 and only go "weird" later on.

At any rate, testing that here, I can change the time signature at the start after creating the empty space and everything seems to go fine? I'll try to test that some more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by axeman View Post
Although I originally thought highlighting the first measure and selecting "Insert > Empty space at time selection" would do the trick, it ended up inserting a 4/4 measure at 120 BPM--but, as the piece opens with a 5/4 measure at 84 BPM, that result was unusable. I tried modifying the start time/measure and found I could go negative, but that didn't really help either.

Finally, I tried selecting the second measure (also 5/4, as is the third, after which it changes), and selecting "Insert > Empty space at time selection"--resulting in a new blank second measure of 84 BPM in 5/4. After that, I had to drag all the first-measure items to the new second measure and then heal all the splits. But, after that, everything lined up perfectly and I now have a nice new 5/4 count-off measure and the ability to come in a little early with the opening guitar parts.
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
I'm glad to hear that you got it working in the end. That's an odd thing about not being able to change the time signature at the start after the empty space insert. My bad not noticing that the empty space indeed seems to be in 4/4, my excuse being that I usually always start at 4/4 and only go "weird" later on.

At any rate, testing that here, I can change the time signature at the start after creating the empty space and everything seems to go fine? I'll try to test that some more...
I appreciate the further feedback. Just to clarify: I can insert time at the beginning, but again that ends up being a 4/4 measure at 120 BPM--but everything past that seems to line up just fine. If I select the new initial tempo event and change it to 5/4 at 84 BPM, then all other items get shifted and are no longer aligned to the rest of the original tempo map.

Take care and thanks again,


Alan
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:22 AM   #13
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Hi,

One way I would use would be to bring it all into reaper then make a time selection for the whole song and rt click ruler and choose... Make region from time selection.....then move the whole region by whatever u want. Moves everything all at once. I hope I have understood your situation.

Guido
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Old 04-25-2014, 03:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,

One way I would use would be to bring it all into reaper then make a time selection for the whole song and rt click ruler and choose... Make region from time selection.....then move the whole region by whatever u want. Moves everything all at once. I hope I have understood your situation.

Guido
Hi Guido,

Thanks very much for the additional tip. I'll have to give this a try as well when I have time.

All the best,


Alan
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