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Old 03-21-2009, 10:42 AM   #1
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Default "Loudness War" Pleasurize Music (VST meter plugin)

Sorry if repost...

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com


They have started a new website about the loudness war problem (yet another one).

The companies behind it are:






They are providing an open source VST meter and an offline DR meter:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/download





From my experience with the meters so far I can say that they are absolutely adequate. The real-time meter indeed shows tracks into the red which I think sounds way too lound. The DR offline metter can be used to load some MP3 / WAV files - Also works as expected. Both seem to be coded very well and efficient (Algorithmix & Tischmeyer). You can check the manual for more details. Note: The realtime RMS values appear to have 3db of "display gain".

RTAS / AU versions are to be released: "We already work on an RTAS and AU version of the plug-in and a MAC version of the TT DR Offline Meter and expect that for May 2009."

Would you be using this meter with Reaper and accept it as a industry standard (I will to be honest)

You can discuss the initiative and the plugin in this thread.

note: If you post on other forums or blogs create similar post or just link to this one.

Last edited by liteon; 03-21-2009 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:59 AM   #2
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I will certainly take a closer look. Sounds serious.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:13 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liteon View Post
They are providing an open source VST meter and an offline DR meter:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/download


Sorry, but how is this different from the standard master channel meter in Reaper?
As far as I can see both offer a peak meter and a rms meter. Maybe there's something I don't get...?
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:35 PM   #4
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I couldn't sign up. there's something wrong with their CAPTCHA test.

thank you for letting us know anyway!
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerMetzgermeister View Post
Sorry, but how is this different from the standard master channel meter in Reaper?
As far as I can see both offer a peak meter and a rms meter. Maybe there's something I don't get...?
Not much difference, as this is a normal vu + rms meter, however they propose these DR (dynamic range) values, which should standard-ise the metering. Where:
red zone is bad
DR < 11 (for example) also bad

You can try loading some tracks with the "offline" meter they are providing.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:45 PM   #6
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The main feature in this meter, which actually only accompanies the standalone application, is to show you the difference between peak and RMS.

Reaper has peak and RMS but doesn't show you the difference. You have to figure it out by yourself. The plugin meter does show you this information.

That said, anything having a low DR value tends to be damaged goods. I welcome a serious attempt at giving listeners an easy to spot number telling them how dynamic the material is (according to how it's measured in the standalone application).

I prefer stuff with a DR value of at least 9. Makes me feel better than squashed stuff. Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast is a 12, Enigma's classic album is a 13 and the fuck-up of the decade, Metallica's Death Magnetic is a 3.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingle View Post
I couldn't sign up. there's something wrong with their CAPTCHA test.

thank you for letting us know anyway!
I've managed to register yesterday. Got a password over email.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
The main feature in this meter, which actually only accompanies the standalone application, is to show you the difference between peak and RMS.
It is also present in the plugin. The moving colored block - green/red is that and the DR values are shown above. The offline version averages DR values for the whole track.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:51 PM   #9
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Meh. Neat idea, but until something like K-metering starts getting adopted by the industry at large, I'll just stick with my -6db RMS.
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Meh. Neat idea, but until something like K-metering starts getting adopted by the industry at large, I'll just stick with my -6db RMS.
Is the K-System compatible with the DYNAMIC RANGE System? It is they say:
http://www.dynamicrange.de/en/k-syst...c-range-system
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:30 PM   #11
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I'm going to sign up for this but why in the hell would a company do a serious marketing or education push on April the 1st?
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:54 PM   #12
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I looked around that web site and they say stuff about open source and what not but I couldn't find a definition of how the DR number is calculated. From context it seems like some mean peak level minus an RMS level, but I'm curious what specific window lengths they propose.

Anyone?

... watching their meter graphic on the web site I'm gonna go with simply peak minus RMS with a 300ms window on both.

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Old 03-21-2009, 04:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I looked around that web site and they say stuff about open source and what not but I couldn't find a definition of how the DR number is calculated. From context it seems like some mean peak level minus an RMS level, but I'm curious what specific window lengths they propose.

Anyone?
From the website about 'DR':
http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/our-aim
...this is the average cumulative difference between peak and loudness (RMS) over a specific period of time (duration of a song or album) and is a whole number value given in decibels. Just the top 20% of the loudness are taken into consideration to ensure that songs with a long intro and an over compressed refrain doesn´t appear with a too high DR value. The DR value represents the grade of compression of released music in a whole number system.

The open source is yet to be uploaded afaik. The RMS window looks like 300ms or higher. However it seams that they are applying smoothing for both the moving colored block and the RMS numbers. At least I think so...

Implementing the colored block and/or 'DR' value meter in Reaper would be a next-level thing.

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Old 03-21-2009, 04:11 PM   #14
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The other day I've contacted a electronic music label about a CD I've recently purchased.

Both the label owner and the producers are people I know...The issue was the volume of the tracks of the CD. I can say it it has lots of distortion and the top end is super sharp. After applying a subtle low-pass filter and converting the WAVs to MP3 the tracks became more listenable.

I had a long message explaining to them how they have "ruined the beautiful music". Their response was that its the ME's fault. The funny (not that funny) thing is that the ME is saying that they want it loud! I think he just did it on auto-pilot...The not funny bit is that I'm the first one who complains, even if the label isn't that big but still respected.
Anyway here is the average 'DR' value of the CD:


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Old 03-21-2009, 04:46 PM   #15
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I recently DL'd the darn thing and I can't get it to show up in Reaper, on the master buss. Just can't get it done. Weird.

Dan
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
I'll just stick with my -6db RMS.
dynamic range and rms are not the same thing, right?!

they're talking about crushed to death, such that there is very little variation in the dynamics (just to make it loud as possible)

-6db RMS is really up there. Run your songs through this dynamic meter and tell us what you get
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave199 View Post
I recently DL'd the darn thing and I can't get it to show up in Reaper, on the master buss. Just can't get it done. Weird.

Dan
no prob here

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Old 03-21-2009, 05:19 PM   #18
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Check their schedule. These guys are serious, yet nuts...

http://www.dynamicrange.de/en/timetable
Quote:
last update: 9 March 2009

January 15, 2009: Pleasurize Music Foundation Launch during the Namm Show in Los Angeles.

Until March 31, 2009: Preparatory phase including press and information activity within the music industry. Search for sponsors to help create a wide-reaching PR campaign.

From April 1, 2009 to June 30, 2010: Phase 1 Record companies begin to label CDs with the DR logo along with the appropriate DR value. CDs will also include a booklet-insert in order to inform listeners about the specifics of the standard. Our goal is to have the DR logo on 95% of all new releases by the end of Phase 1.

Starting from July 1, 2010: Phase 2 All record companies which have agreed to Commitment 2 will release music with a minimum value of DR14. Discs with lower dynamic range will be released with appropriate headroom, so that all releases are roughly equally loud. The film industry already proved in the 1970s that a loudness standard is possible. The economic and sound-aesthetic advantage for all involved – from listeners to record companies – will certainly lead to a binding standard.
I would still agree if I was a record company. If some of the big record companies do this more will follow. Do some work on a track and check it out for DR14. It may sound quiet at first... :-)
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:03 PM   #19
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interesting stuff -

i'd say going back to 1982's dynamics maybe is a bit hopeful -

having been doing my own 'mastering' for a while now, i ran through a few recent mp3's and TBH they avg. about 9.
fyi i tend to master/finalize/ruin by eye, seeing the effect treatments have on the look of the final mix, (in a wave editor) in order to avoid over cooking it.

so does a dr9 make me the devil that i have been slagging off for yrs?

be interested to hear other folks (HONEST now! - no point bumping it up!) figures, of course those mastering are torn between retaining dynamics and giving it 'punch' and meeting clients volume expectations...

even so this may help find a balance between the punch/loudness that folk expect and retaining dynamics, even if it isn't @ the 14 they propose.
labeling releases with their mastered dynamics (whatever they are) would be a start, then listeners can make a choice.

suppose there is the problem of "ok, you go first, i don't want to look silly!"

but is an admirable idea.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:13 PM   #20
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Nice tool, been having some fun measuring some recordings, including my own music.

Here's one atrocious example of what remastering can end up being like :



Those are direct CD rips, the waveform on the right is what is on the CD. Apparently the artist/mastering engineer has here attempted to compensate for the butchering they've done by lowering the maximum peak value. Of course without any benefit, the remastered track still sounds horrible. DR values are 13 for the original master on the left and 4 for the one on the right. The genre of the music absolutely would not call for the sound to be extremely loud either. Highly disappointing and frustrating!
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politcat View Post
no prob here

Would you mind telling me how you did it? And you don't have to rewrite the instructions- I followed them to the letter. I just can't figure out how much of which of the multi folders that comes with the thing must be broken out into my VST folder. I mean really, there are layers of folders within folders for it. And I do realize there are two meters- the plugin and the stand alone. I'm interested in the plugin. Maybe perhaps just a little something you did that might clue me in, past their stock directions. Thanks!

Dan
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:33 PM   #22
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Find P:\Program Files\Algorithmix\TT-Dynamic-Range 1.3\DR-Meter and copy the entire folder into any folder that Reaper scans for VSTs. The rescan VSTs. IT should be there. Search for 'algorithmix' in the FX browser.

HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
interesting stuff -

labeling releases with their mastered dynamics (whatever they are) would be a start, then listeners can make a choice.
But I have to wonder... between what would listeners be making a choice? On the one hand they've got the latest music from a band they love, regardless of how it's been mastered (and regardless of how the music they originally fell in love with was mastered), and on the other hand.... what? Other music by an artist they don't love because it's got a better DR number?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post

...suppose there is the problem of "ok, you go first, i don't want to look silly!"
I'll go first!

I just ran a bunch of my stuff through the DR standalone. Note that these were not even pseudo mastered... just work mixes I run off for myself. I was shocked that a few of them were actually 14. The one I'm currently working on was 16. hmmm.... But others were more in the 7, 8, 9 range. Phew! What a relief! heehee!

In the DR docs, they refer to the song "Why Do You Love Me" from the album Bleed Like Me by Garbage. I quite like Grabage. Their first 3 CDs I thought (and think) are very good for their genre, well-written, well-conceived, well-performed, and well arranged and produced, and not lacking in, let's call it, dynamic variety. The second and third in particular have a very nice sound, I think. In any case...

I just DR'ed all 4 of their CDs, as 4 ripped wav files, which would average each CDs track. In order of release, their DR nums were:

DR 7 (1995)
DR 6 (1998)
DR 5 (2001)
DR 4 (2005)

About Bleed Like Me, the DR docs say:

Quote:
For this, we will give it the label 'unfit for consumption'. Too bad!
Well OK. I was not too impressed with the Bleed Like Me cd, their fourth and last, even though, as a fan, I was predisposed to like it, especially since it was more guitar-heavy than their prevs. The record did have a harsh sound, which I suppose shows up in the DR num. But, the REAL problem with that record, what makes it "unfit for consumption," is that it's filled mostly with perfunctory songs, perfunctorily produced. Like they made no real effort and just took a dive. I hate it when artists I like to that.

The problem I would have with the DR number concept is that while it can measure dynamic range numerically, and it's a fascinating and at least somewhat useful number, it can't tell you anything at all about what's actually "in the grooves." And while a brickwall lack of dynamic range can make a *CD*, as a collection of 1's and 0's, sound like garbage, it takes more than a wide dynamic range to make actual *music* worth listening to.

What's important here?

The PMF's intentions might be good. But is it really a good idea to have a bunch of audio statisticians decreeing what music is "fit for consumption"?

Would the Dynamic Range logo go above or below the Parental Advisory?



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Old 03-22-2009, 12:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marah Mag
The PMF's intentions might be good. But is it really a good idea to have a bunch of audio statisticians decreeing what music is "fit for consumption"?
Well this statement in the manual is very frank and critical, which may be considered as a "booster" attempt of the whole campaign, by accusing a famous music CD. The "Garbage" CDs contains very good music, which can still be enjoyed, but tbh I've always thought that their music is very loud.

But also who is Bob Katz to design a metering system? (: On the same note I'm not sure that they explain very well the relation between K-System and DR-System. Posted a comment here:
http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/k-...c-range-system

Quote:
Would the Dynamic Range logo go above or below the Parental Advisory?

DR logo on the back I guess
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:39 AM   #24
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true - at first it would be meaningless to listeners but over time and with these guys supposed marketing, an awareness of dynamics and associating less dynamics with less fun, may begin to influence listeners choices, but just guessing at this stage.

and I agree re the point about back-dating your 'favourite music' and suddenly calling it `unlistenable` . that is a bit dubious and may put off those you are trying to convince. (i saw garbage once!)

what I meant by the `going first` line was that i can see producers/engineers being keen on the idea in principle, but perhaps unwilling to produce at this DR14 until many many people are doing it, so it may be difficult to get started.

still interested in anyones else own numbers on own recordings here - don't be shy...
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:08 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave199 View Post
Would you mind telling me how you did it?
Dan
after you install the package move the folder called DR-Meter to wherever you keep your plugins for reaper to scan

uh yeah, like Marah Mag said

like most devs do, they should include a separate step during installation for the plugin location

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Old 03-22-2009, 08:30 AM   #26
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here you go BenK,
i just went through most of the songs i've recorded for my band.
average DR was 9 ish.
lots of DR of 10 and 9 with a couple of 8.
one was a DR of 6!(smashed on purpose, i figured i was in 'tallica range on that one- guess i'm a lightweight )
a couple DR of 12 were my high readings so far.

don

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Old 03-22-2009, 09:25 AM   #27
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The offline program is great. After running about 20 songs through it, I think I can estimate the "DR factor" to within about 1. It's cool because it seems to match my *overall impression* of a song well, and it puts a number on the impression.

My "threshold of annoyance" seems to happen at a DRf of 10. Things I've always though of as "punchy" - like some classic Stevie Wonder stuff - hits around 13-14. My own stuff seems to gravitate towards 12-14.

Very interesting. I wish IPods had this meter built in.

/ gah.. I can tell already, friends are going to hate me for referring to this
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:39 AM   #28
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A compressor based around setting the DRf would probably be a handy thing (a probably a music-saving thing for some people...)
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:34 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
A compressor based around setting the DRf would probably be a handy thing (a probably a music-saving thing for some people...)
+1 Agreed.
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:41 AM   #30
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+1 on DR meter enabled Mastering plugs. am sure its only matter of time.
would make getting a final mix to meet those requirements alot more straightforward.

Think i will ensure keeping things around >10 from now on, whether this takes off or not...
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:13 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
The offline program is great.
Yeah it's nice. It would even nicer if you could drag n drop on to it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
After running about 20 songs through it, I think I can estimate the "DR factor" to within about 1. It's cool because it seems to match my *overall impression* of a song well, and it puts a number on the impression.
Definitely it's a fun game. Trying to guess the DR nums based on overall impression. Would be interesting to measure isolated sections of songs... like the intra-song DR for Smells Like Teen Spirit or Bohemian Rhapsody.

Here are some "Official DR values" for a semi-random sampling of stuff on my hard drive. Sorted by DR num, then by artist.

What does it actually mean?



can't forget these:
My Bloody Valentine - When You Sleep - DR10
My Bloody Valentine - Come In Alone - DR11
Iggy Pop - China Girl - DR9
Iggy Pop - Lust For Life - DR10
Iggy Pop - Funtime - DR8
Hole - Celebrity Skin (cd) - DR7
Elastica - Elastica (cd) - DR7

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Old 03-22-2009, 01:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by politcat View Post
after you install the package move the folder called DR-Meter to wherever you keep your plugins for reaper to scan

uh yeah, like Marah Mag said

like most devs do, they should include a separate step during installation for the plugin location
Thanks. I did that and it resides in a stock VST folder. I'll have to try and rescan for it. It seems to me that reaper isn't going to dig into a folder residing in a folder. I think the CONTENTS of the DR Meter folder needs to be dumped out into the VST folder for reaper to see the dll file. And that didn't work for me either. No biggy though- I just wanted to check it out.

Dan
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:32 PM   #33
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Just for fun: https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/133663/dynamics_meter
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave199 View Post
It seems to me that reaper isn't going to dig into a folder residing in a folder.
Dan

I have never noticed a problem with Reaper not looking into sub-folders in the VST folder, and unfortunately I have a lot of sub-folders for some plugins.
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I looked around that web site and they say stuff about open source and what not but I couldn't find a definition of how the DR number is calculated. From context it seems like some mean peak level minus an RMS level, but I'm curious what specific window lengths they propose.

Anyone?

... watching their meter graphic on the web site I'm gonna go with simply peak minus RMS with a 300ms window on both.
It seems that they have a disclaimer on the calc specs. Here is the link..

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/en/meter-spex
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:19 PM   #36
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i scanned a bunch more of my own tunes this eve, some of which i know are very dynamic as were written for live performance via PA, and the waveform is blatantly all over the place, (its also a long track) - but the DR of this track was deemed 4, which TBH makes me think they need to tweak things as its not a reflection of the contents dynamics at all.

shorter clips no doubt are more accurate but i think there is a flaw in averaging out dynamics over a longish period as dynamic pieces of music are being labelled poop.

perhaps the meter is better as you can check things out as the piece plays, but bit dissapointed that there are some false positives going on.
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:26 PM   #37
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Very nice idea schwa, thanks. Some questions:

*which one of those green bars is for RMS and which one is for Peak?
*Can we have an option in REAPER's master meter to display dynamic range like that? I think it'd be nice to have the first DAW with that feature.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:09 PM   #38
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Very nice idea schwa, thanks. Some questions:

*which one of those green bars is for RMS and which one is for Peak?
*Can we have an option in REAPER's master meter to display dynamic range like that? I think it'd be nice to have the first DAW with that feature.
They are arranged just like the Reaper master meter (peak is always higher than RMS, is another way to know).

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Old 03-22-2009, 06:11 PM   #39
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The loudness war has never been and is not now a problem of inadequate metering. The soldiers waging it know better, and always have, by and large. These records are, after all, made by the top names in mixing and mastering.

The problem is one of buck-passing. The producers say it's what the mooks want, the mastering engineer says it's what the producer wants, The mix engineer says it's what the artist wants, the mook says it's what the public wants, and the public hasn't objected or cared so far.

The irony of having the loudness war exposed to the public by way of a VIDEO GAME of a HEAVY METAL record is painful. (see "Metallica, Death Magnetic" if you've been living in a cave).

The supposed "benefits" of loud records have been a moot point since the introduction of digital broadcast processing, which has been a long time now. Radio stations and jukeboxes already compress and level-match output. Moreover, digital media could make it ridiculously cheap and easy to encode metadata or alternate versions that allow for an easy "party" button even if stereo manufacturers are too cheap to include a switchable compression circuit. This would be one easy and obvious way to sell digital music with a real value-added if anyone cared.

I don't want to yank this off-topic, but I actually think that the underlying trend in audio production is none other than than the major trend in the music industry overall, which is trying to sell music in a post-piracy world. The unspoken reality is that the music that makes money these days is not sold to consumers, but sold to Pepsi commercials and the like. So music recorded and mixed like a TV commercial is what we get.

I'm always happy to see anyone caring about the quality of recorded music, but frankly new metering standards and such are really the epitome of preaching to the choir. Only when labels and artists start to demand good-sounding records will there be a change. Otherwise, we're all just a bunch of purists and audio nerds pissing in the wind, trying to tell customers (the commercial record industry) to buy something they don't want.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:47 PM   #40
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They are arranged just like the Reaper master meter (peak is always higher than RMS, is another way to know).

And what about my other question? It'd be really useful when mixing/mastering.
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