best solution for low latency guitar (amp sim) recording?

[Oxytoxine]

hi guys;

SUBJECT:

i currently use a m-audio fast track pro interface for tracking electric guitars through amp sims in the night at home. its lowest buffer size is 128, what, at 44.1 khz, results in a total round-trip latency of > 11 ms (5.6 ms in, 5.6 ms out). as the interface is restricted to 48 khz max, increasing the sample rate to get lower latency is not an option. direct monitoring the dry guitar signal is also not too sexy for distorted riffs/solos..

PROBLEM:

too much latency and misalignment of overdubbed tracks.
i realize that the brain with no problems can compensate for the few milliseconds delay, so that what you hear while you play/overdub matches the already recorded tracks. but: reaper (and every other daw) automatically compensates for the latency, meaning it moves the audio according to the latency reported from the audio interface. result: on playback, the audio is misaligned and always slightly ahead.

(this is especially annoying because when at other occasions i have to play directly into a console (w/o any latency), i first get confused and have to "adopt" my brain to the new situation)

QUESTION:

micing real amps unfortunately is not an option at home(i know, i know - nothing beats a real amp etc. ..;-), so what's your best solution to this problem?

a) a new audio interface allowing low buffer settings and high sampling rates and then live with the remnant of the problem (which, if < than ca 5 ms should hopefully become neglectable). with which ones do you have good experiences for recording electric guitars? i've heard good things of the rme interfaces and the presonus firebox (maybe even the smaller inspire) as well as the emu 0404 usb?

b) line 6 ux-1/2 studio pod series. do these interfaces really allow you to circumvent the latency problem? how does this "Exclusive latency-killing ToneDirect™ monitoring" exactly function?
i am a bit confused because the older ux series apparently only allowed you to record the wet signal without any latency, whereas the new pod studio ux series seems to feature the POD farm plug-ins (so it seems that what is recorded is only the dry signal, so that the plug-ins can then be used like other amp sims, meaning the amp models and effects can be changed after recording?

c)insert here your personal solution

ups - so many questions presented in such a disorganized way - sorry!
i would really appreciate every input you have to this, be it concrete advise / experiences with certain interfaces, how you deal with this in general, or whatever!

thanks and cheers

oxy

[brainwreck]

yes, the toneports do eliminate the latency problem. if you have no hangups with modelers, the line6 things are a good solution. from my understanding, the guitar signal is processed in the interface and passed directly to the audio outputs and headphones.

[Oxytoxine]

or to put the question really simple: does it make sense - only for recording guitars - to get such a line 6 ux-1/2 device, or does this amount to the same thing as just getting a good other interface (of course with the difference that there are some amp models included in the line 6 stuff)?

and can one also use other amp sims with the line 6 devices?

EDIT: thanks brainwreck, you've been faster :-)

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

or to put the question really simple: does it make sense - only for recording guitars - to get such a line 6 ux-1/2 device, or does this amount to the same thing as just getting a good other interface (of course with the difference that there are some amp models included in the line 6 stuff)?

and can one also use other amp sims with the line 6 devices?

EDIT: thanks brainwreck, you've been faster :-)

i'm not sure how the new line6 boxes work, but i assume that you monitor as in the old version, and record a dry signal at the same time for passing to the plugin afterward. i'd just record wet and live with it. i'm not sure if you can share models between devices.

another idea is to monitor how ever you choose (thru line6, etc.) and record a dry signal for reamping through a real amp, when it's convenient to do so.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

yes, the toneports do eliminate the latency problem. if you have no hangups with modelers, the line6 things are a good solution. from my understanding, the guitar signal is processed in the interface and passed directly to the audio outputs and headphones.

btw, i owned a ux1 (until i smoked it). i suspect that there is some latency at play, but not more than a pod or similar device. i don't like the digital modeler things, mostly because of the speaker sim stuff. i owned a line6 amp which was way mo betta, imo. > i really want to rant about the things i don't like about amp/speaker sims, but i'll save it for another thread.

[yhertogh]

With any toneport, you can monitor the wet signal without latency, if you use the toneports digital outs or analog outs. Either connect them directly to the speakers (and use the toneport as your audio interface), or connect them to a standalone mixer.

With the 'old' gearbox software you can record both wet and dry signals at the same time while hearing the wet sound. Later on you can use the dry signal for re-amping, either by sending the signal out of the daw into the toneport and back into the daw (you probably need a mixer for this), or by re-amping through a real amp (and record the output with a mike), or by using plug-ins on the dry track. The gearbox also comes as a plug-in but you needed to purchase the plug-in seperately. Or you can use any amp-sim as a plug in afterwards. You can do both at the same time. I believe the combinations are endless and in the end i dont think one can hear the difference in the mix. Ofcourse if the guitarplayer is turned off by 'knowing' that he is playing through an amp-sim, he wont do a stellar performance, perhaps something that you need to take into account. What i do occasionally is to play with a real amp full on (just to get a good performance), and still record both DI and wet signals..and then re-amp the DI signal with a plug-in.

The new podfarm software is essentially an upgrade for gearbox: it runs on all the hardware gearbox used to run on, always comes with the plug-in included (hence the higher cost), and allows you to run your guitar into two amp-sims at the same time, but can be used with the same workflows as described above.

Yves

[Bevosss]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

with which ones do you have good experiences for recording electric guitars? i've heard good things of the rme interfaces and the presonus firebox

I use an RME Fireface set to 48 samples...I could use my GuitarPort for zero, but I really can't hear/feel a difference, and I prefer leaving the Fireface as the interface.

Btw check out the Overloud TH-1 for an awesome guitar sim, if you can get past the pace protection and the price, it's far better than anything else in cab/mic simulation imo...I can't believe it's an amp sim myself.

[shockwave199]

Does your budget dictate your solution? I use an RME 9652 and record/monitor e-guitar through UAD-1 Nigel with no trouble at all. The RME is a great card but it's not cheap. My opinion is look into a better audio card/interface that will fit into your current setup. It will serve your needs well beyond just recording guitar, if you should need it. Otherwise, you're solving just one situation- recording guitar. But depending on what you ultimately want to do, that may be plenty enough. That's the long way of saying, it depends on what you want!

Dan

[Blackrg]

Really, USB is the latency problem here

I'd go for a second hand RME interface such as 9632 hammerfall, or the fw presonus if you dont want PCI

They have way better sound and ASIO performance than m-audio

You could bay the fast track to fund part of it

This way all your recordings, will sound better, not just the guitar, and all your VSTs will work a bit better

I use an rme hammerfall with Revalver, which is also a very good sim, but like Line 6, puts you on the upgrade $$ elevator you got off when you purchased Reaper

free or cheap amp sims are getting better and better all the time.

Check out some of the free amps with free cab sims running in kefir - the jcm, the wagner sharp, the anataz? sp?

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

i realize that the brain with no problems can compensate for the few milliseconds delay, so that what you hear while you play/overdub matches the already recorded tracks. but: reaper (and every other daw) automatically compensates for the latency, meaning it moves the audio according to the latency reported from the audio interface. result: on playback, the audio is misaligned and always slightly ahead.

I could easily make JS plug in that delays a signal only when played (not when recording). That way (asssuming you know how much ahead Reaper moves the audio, but that shouldn't be too hard to figure out) you'll hear it played back exactly like you recorded it. let me know if you want me to write such a plug-in!

Regards,
- Jonas

[Gerry G]

The simple answer does require a bit of background. The RME and MOTU firewire interfaces have very low to way latency. This is because they do not have a hidden safety buffer like a lot of other interfaces. I have heard somewhere that the latest MOTU drivers have an increased buffer size but I do not think it is by much.

some Daw software misreports this two way latency making it harder to do direct comparisons.

If you may ever want to record vocals then consider a fuller interface with low latency as this is where a singer can be really thrown if the signal coming back has a detectable latency.

Adding the type of effects that enhance a performance (reverb etc) can increase the latency but there are better effects at this and there are techniques to deal with it.

I really think for guitar that it is advisable to record dry and effected signals. Monitoring dry can cause problems as you cannot hear what playing technique sounds best with that effect.

Personally I actually like to hear any latency in the system (provided it is minimal) in the monitoring as then you adjust your playing, especially if you are inclined to play behind the beat.

Getting rid of a lot of apps that may 'interrupt' the signal path in a computer is a good idea as many processes, in Windoze for example, run in various priorites. An interrupting process may (like an indexer or antivirus) take priority and cause your signal path to wait in a queue in a detectable way.

[Lokasenna]

I'm using an 0404 with something like 22ms of latency, round-trip, and I've never had a problem with recorded media getting out of alignment in Reaper. Zoom in, everything matches perfectly, good to go.

Is it possible that the OP has one of Reaper's latency-compensating settings turned up too high or something?

[Oxytoxine]

thank you all guys for the very helpful and comprehensive responses! this forum is terrific :-)

hm, as budget indeed is the limiting factor, a rme or motu unit at the moment really is out of reach. but i realize that there is probably no solution that is cheap AND satisfying (as so often in life..), so i will probably postpone every other planned investment (like food, alcohol and christmas gifts..;-) and save money for such a decent interface nevertheless. it's just that, being still a phd student that does not live from making music, spending so much money just for the beloved hobby makes me feel a bit bad - even more because use it only at home; luckily i can use higher quality recording gear from a studio mate, but only during the day.

it's embarassing, but i seem to suffer from dementia; this afternoon i suddenly realized that i already asked a similar question a few month ago, and already then came to a similar conclusion (insert shame icon here)..

sorry that i don't respond to every single post at the moment (i should learn for an exam), but be assured that i really appreciate your help, it's always very informative!)!

cheers and bye for now

oxy

[filter303]

A word of warning about the emu 0404 usb:

I had it for quite a long time so I think I know what I am talking about.

The thing about the 0404 USB is that it looks really good on paper, good converters, low latency, interface with knobs, low price etc.. But nothing couldn't be more further from the truth.

Everything you record trough the converters will sound nice, its just that you're going to spend a lot of time on getting the gain settings right. The input knobs feel quite cheap, and they are really sensitive. If you adjust the input gain the level gets suddenly up; the autosensing doesn't quite work IMO.

I was ready to live with the previous problem. But what was really driving me crazy was the instability of EMU's asio driver. I mean, it was totally unbelievable. I've had more BSOD's with EMU than what I have ever seen before in my whole life. I rarely could do any music with it because I spent more time writing emails to EMU's customer service and sorting out audio dropouts. All this with pretty high latencies. Now that I think about it I've probably had more luck with mobo's built in sound cards than with the 0404.

One other negative thing about EMU is that they don't update their drivers very often. Unlike RME, which I chose by the way, after spending a lot of time googling for people's experiences about soundcard manufacturers.
If RME is too expensive you could always buy one for a lot cheaper from the used market. I've seen an 9632 go for 70 euros because people want to get rid of the PCI cards. I bough mine for 140euros and it has been serving me really well, except for the fact that I have some problems with midi right now. But I believe it to be reapers fault.

And for EMU's defence I must say that it's definetly possible that 0404 works really well for other people. At least I assume it did work for the guy who bought mine (he hasn't called me... yet).
I am just speaking of my own experience, It just didn't work on my system.

And do yourself a favor: If you can, just get a PCI/PCIe soundcard instead of USB/FW.. these usually seem to have better performance and less problems.

[shockwave199]

I could easily make JS plug in that delays a signal only when played (not when recording). That way (asssuming you know how much ahead Reaper moves the audio, but that shouldn't be too hard to figure out) you'll hear it played back exactly like you recorded it. let me know if you want me to write such a plug-in!

Get writing!

[Sheppola]

Best value and does a great job or guitars/bass and vocals,

http://line6.com/podstudiogx/

All the songs in my sig site have been done with it's predecessor the standard GX/Gearbox.

checkout some of stuff done on the Line6 forum,
http://line6.com/support//forum.jspa?forumID=22

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

Originally Posted by shockwave199

Get writing!

You got it:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/85748/PlayDelay

It has two controls, one that sets the delay time (in ms) and one that decides whether...

1. it delays on Play only (which is the way you'll want it while recording on the track PlayDelay is on)
2. it delays on Play and Record (which is the way you'll want it when you're done recording on this track).

Regards,
- Jonas

[matey]

presonus firebox here,
anyway:
I record my electric guit with the f.box, using an fx chain with some plugs: voxengo boogex; js amp sim; FA3, etc. with very low latency values (8ms) so I can't hear any difference when recording, with no issue of the sync of the track...(no Guitar Rig or other heavy plugin, I don't like them so much, too preset-ted, and it's good for my self esteem to make my own rigs from scratch....)

just consider to play the guit's parts in the very first steps of the whole project, render any vsti, bypass the more fx you can...

no problems with reaper so far

[RinkyD]

i monitor through a V-amp with a 'close enough' preset but record the clean/dry guitar

that way i can play the way i want but it records the dry and then i use amplitube.

i plug me guitar into this: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=44076

which attaches to this:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=989

use a 1/4” mono Plug to Two 1/4” mono Sockets Adaptor instead, (looks similar but couldn't find a pic of it)

one of those outputs (the clean/dry guitar)goes to channel 1 of my audio interface the other goes to my v-amp

i record channel 1 but listen to the v-amp while recording

[shockwave199]

Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe

You got it:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/85748/PlayDelay

It has two controls, one that sets the delay time (in ms) and one that decides whether...

1. it delays on Play only (which is the way you'll want it while recording on the track PlayDelay is on)
2. it delays on Play and Record (which is the way you'll want it when you're done recording on this track).

Regards,
- Jonas

Well damn!! Thank you! I'll have to DL this and check it out. You should make a new thread for this because I'm sure there will be LOTS of appreciative people using it. Thanks again!

Dan

[Oxytoxine]

Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe

You got it:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/85748/PlayDelay

It has two controls, one that sets the delay time (in ms) and one that decides whether...

1. it delays on Play only (which is the way you'll want it while recording on the track PlayDelay is on)
2. it delays on Play and Record (which is the way you'll want it when you're done recording on this track).

Regards,
- Jonas

wow, jawdropping! thank you so much! :-) :-) i'm looking forward to trying this out tonite.

i think this could be of interest for many many people, at least i saw other people complaining about this issue in other forums, so maybe you should put it somewhere where more people have access to / can see it?

ok, maybe one should first see whether it really works, but again - THANKS, GREAT! i'm sure with your programming you will save many guitar players heart from dying too early from stress..;-)

cheers

oxy

[Oxytoxine]

Originally Posted by Bevosss

I use an RME Fireface set to 48 samples...I could use my GuitarPort for zero, but I really can't hear/feel a difference, and I prefer leaving the Fireface as the interface.

Btw check out the Overloud TH-1 for an awesome guitar sim, if you can get past the pace protection and the price, it's far better than anything else in cab/mic simulation imo...I can't believe it's an amp sim myself.

ah, thanks for the tip, i was not aware that this is already out! have you been in the beta team? it's indeed pricey, but when it turns out to really be as good as the early round of applause suggests it's worth it for sure!

[Oxytoxine]

Originally Posted by Sheppola

Best value and does a great job or guitars/bass and vocals,

http://line6.com/podstudiogx/

All the songs in my sig site have been done with it's predecessor the standard GX/Gearbox.

checkout some of stuff done on the Line6 forum,
http://line6.com/support//forum.jspa?forumID=22

hey, not only some very nice guitar tones but also cool songs!!all from you?

and all the guitars really come out of this small innocent cheap box? that's stunning!

[vocalnick]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

ok, maybe one should first see whether it really works, but again - THANKS, GREAT! i'm sure with your programming you will save many guitar players heart from dying too early from stress..;-)

Abso-frackin-lutely. And not just guitarists - Keyboard players recording with VI's will get all the same benefits.

This would actually make a really cool native feature too.

[Cableaddict]

Originally Posted by Bevosss

I use an RME Fireface set to 48 samples...I could use my GuitarPort for zero, but I really can't hear/feel a difference, and I prefer leaving the Fireface as the interface.

Btw check out the Overloud TH-1 for an awesome guitar sim, if you can get past the pace protection and the price, it's far better than anything else in cab/mic simulation imo...I can't believe it's an amp sim myself.

Bevoss,

Has you done any latency testing? Not RTL, just the latncy of the plugin itself?

I'm also looking for a super-fast option for tracking & live performance. Good sound is secondary, as you can always mix-down through something else later, with compensation.

[Billoon]

Originally Posted by Oxytoxine

PROBLEM:

too much latency and misalignment of overdubbed tracks.
i realize that the brain with no problems can compensate for the few milliseconds delay, so that what you hear while you play/overdub matches the already recorded tracks. but: reaper (and every other daw) automatically compensates for the latency, meaning it moves the audio according to the latency reported from the audio interface. result: on playback, the audio is misaligned and always slightly ahead.

SOLUTION:

c)set the track to record: output


Thankfully reaper isnt like 'every other DAW'.

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

Originally Posted by Billoon

SOLUTION:

c)set the track to record: output


Thankfully reaper isnt like 'every other DAW'.

Simpler is better Would I be right to say that if you want to record your dry signal you'll have to "Record: Output (mono)" on one track with no FX on and then route it to another track where you put your FX? (And it still wouldn't "uncompensate" for the latency caused by plug ins, right?)

I'm not by my studio computer at the moment so I can't try it...

Regards,
- Jonas

[Billoon]

Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe

Simpler is better Would I be right to say that if you want to record your dry signal you'll have to "Record: Output (mono)" on one track with no FX on and then route it to another track where you put your FX? (And it still wouldn't "uncompensate" for the latency caused by plug ins, right?)

I'm not by my studio computer at the moment so I can't try it...

Regards,
- Jonas

Yeah, that seems to work...or you could send from the 'fx' track pre-fx to a 'clean' track. Either way, youd probably want to disable the master/parent send on the clean track so only the fx track get monitored.

The way i normally do it is just use 2 tracks, both set to the same input. Put fx on one track, enable monitoring and record: output on both but disable master/parent send on the track without the fx. That way you dont have to mess around with sends.

Only potential issue i can see is if the fx you use introduce further latency, then the clean track will be early. You could fix this pretty easily though by using the js:time_adjustment plug to add the same amount of delay as the fx.

[hux]

I am extremely hqppy with my UX2, FWIW. It functions as a zero latency guitar modeler, bass modeler, vocal preamp, has phantom power, and I can log into customtone.com to get guitar tones from people who actually know what they're doing

Monitor wet, record dry, use pod farm as a vst plugin to set up dual rigs..tons of flexibility.

[Billoon]

Jonas' idea about sending to another track to record the clean input inspired me to see if there was a better way of doing this...and i think ive got one.

See attached project...

Ive used an 'input' track for monitoring and two other tracks for recording the fx output and the clean output. All three tracks are in a folder and their record arm buttons are linked via the grouping matrix.

When you hit the record button on the folder, the folder opens(if youve got the options>prefs>recording>'Always show full TCP on armed tracks' pref enabled) and monitoring becomes active.

Enabling record on the transport will record the fx output and the clean output(without compensating for latency, so it will playback exactly what you heard when you recorded), hitting play will disable the monitoring and playback the recorded fx output.

To hear the clean track, just enable its master/parent send.

When youre done, just hit the record button on the folder track and it folds up and disables the monitoring, nice and neat.

Note: ive used some JS fx for demo purposes, just swap them for your fav vst. For future use, you could select all four tracks and save them as a template for quick, easy access.

HTH.

[Billoon]

Originally Posted by Cableaddict

Has you done any latency testing? Not RTL, just the latncy of the plugin itself?

No need for testing, a plugin's latency is displayed in samples in the fx chain window at the bottom when it it selected,

Total for the chain on the right, the selected plugin's latency on the left.