Old 07-09-2015, 10:34 AM   #81
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Extremely talented people are very often also extremely eccentric.

Unknowingly until mentioned here, I am apparently following some of Prince's M.O.:

record and cut records on your own and then lock them away in a vault for no one to ever hear. Why, I don't know, but I think I need to confront myself about this someday.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:01 AM   #82
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Prolific writers like that seem to typically have many times more music than they ever publish or distribute so, probably not that unusual.

Diane Warren (the female hit factory) probably has lots of songs that have never been recorded. Some of the stuff they throw away is probably better than some of the stuff other people publish.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:44 AM   #83
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I often wonder why prodigy's like that are so often also somewhat really odd people
I'm sure you are leading up to... There are only 24 hours in a day and to get/be that good there is no time remaining for learning social or similar skills which will always be missing to some extent. Just goes to show specialization and jack of all trades are always pushing up against each other in every facet of life.

Selling one's soul has a lot of truth to it where the devil is a placeholder for the thing you love at the expense of all other things.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:08 PM   #84
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Yeah, I guess.

I mean, some people, for whatever reason, are just born gifted and there's no (or maybe much less) hard work or sacrifice involved... and of course others are (as you suggest) just single minded and don't do anything else but one thing because they want to be great at it and never learn to socialize or whatever and end up kinda being social oddballs like MJ where even really strange hard rock guys eating chicken heads say he was odd when they met him.

I would suppose the former, the extremely naturally gifted, "savants" maybe, are more rare though.

Prince seems to be one of those guys who just grew up around music and had a natural talent for it and maybe like Jimi, the doing wasn't really hard work because it's the only thing he ever liked doing anyway. Dunno... but people who knew him say Jimi never went anywhere without a guitar.

There's a theory that everyone has a special gift, something they would be exceptional at, but very few are lucky enough to stumble on it... like Michael Jordan, if he had never played basketball, he'd just be a 6 foot 7 guy delivering packages for FedEx or something. He might have been really good at something else given his athletic ability but I doubt if he'd have been the best in the world at something else.

I mean, a poor kid in the Barrio wouldn't ever know that he could have been the best swimmer in the world if he's not swimming.

That's where economics really come into play. The more money a family has the more different things the kids can try, from golf to tennis to whatever else that costs money, to try to help find their "special purpose".

I think most of the rest of us, if we're lucky, maybe end up doing our 3rd or 4th best thing, not our potential best thing.

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Old 07-09-2015, 12:12 PM   #85
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I mean, some people, for whatever reason, are just born gifted and there's no (or maybe much less) hard work or sacrifice involved
There is but we want to be careful about the extreme exceptions which a true prodigy that is also well rounded socially with a stable family and stable everything else sort of is. IOW being a prodigy is pretty rare, being all the other completely normal stuff at the same time is even rarer. Prince is an f'ing genius but he is anything but normal. Most prodigy's don't practice once a week for an hour and spend the rest of the week chasing the opposite sex and learning how to function socially and not doing so comes at a price.

I do know some who come close though and I hate them.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:30 PM   #86
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Prince is an f'ing genius but he is anything but normal.
True. I spent some years wondering how he made it through high school, what that must have been like, in a typical public school. He wasn't exactly sheltered like MJ so I had this idea that he might have been a target for bullies, a smallish kinda guy with feminine ways kinda.

Every time I saw him on TV I'd wonder that. "Boy, if he was like that in high school when high school was like it was when I went, that would have been an ordeal."

But to your point, some of the guys that get picked on in HS end up being Bill Gates.. who probably didn't get laid until he was 30.

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Old 07-09-2015, 12:46 PM   #87
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You don't have to practice playing as much because you can fix all of your bad playing. You don't have to practice singing in key because you can fix that too.
Jesus, man, where do I get those plugs?
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:21 PM   #88
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karbomusic: "There are only 24 hours in a day and to get/be that good there is no time remaining for learning social or similar skills which will always be missing to some extent."

Well, I don't know if I'll ever attain to the level of the various musicians, composers and producers I admire most, but I know and feel karbo's remark above. In fact, since I went digital and DAW it has never been so true. The sacrifice was small (to me, anyway) in the old pre-computer days, and I'm only saying/posting about this now because the statement is so incredibly true these days! To some acquaintances and friends I knew more in passing and not as 'best mates', etc., some think I've dropped off the face of the earth, since I've been hermit-ed away with my PC, DAWs and groovy plugins.

I've adjusted, I think, well enough, but my world is so changed from the old days when I worked a studio job or hung out with my band mates almost every day. Of course, it must be said that at least a third of musicians with whom I've gigged, recorded are now dead; that's sad enough ... so I'm not complaining and happy to be alive and still in the music biz!
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:25 PM   #89
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Jesus, man, where do I get those plugs?
I heard they are only available on the dark web and require a contract with the Devil, for your soul, signed in your blood.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:27 PM   #90
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Jesus, man, where do I get those plugs?
What plugs? . They come in every modern daw. Quantize (or manually edit) to fix timing, audio or midi, nudge, auto-tune, Melodyne, stretch markers, or any number of other things that can help fix bad performances.

I can even fix a bad note in a guitar or piano chord in like, 60 seconds.

Why, pray tell, should I have to slip edit a five minute drum track to lock in the timing unless the drummer was just not a very good drummer.

Ask people who mix for other people why there are out of tune notes, late hits, and all kinds of other things that need "editing" in the stems, or why we all "edit" so much and brag about how great some of the editing tools are. Because the people doing it know it can be easily fixed so they often enough don't even bother performing it right, if they can.

That was not the reality in 1960.

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Old 07-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #91
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Of course, it must be said that at least a third of musicians with whom I've gigged, recorded are now dead; that's sad enough ...
Sadly the same case here and none of those deaths were due to old age.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #92
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There was an on-going discussion about "What was the last year you heard and captured a complete performance of a part in a song" over on one of the studio recording forums.

EDIT is my middle name. FIXES R US.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:40 PM   #93
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Ask people who mix for other people why there are out of tune notes, late hits, and all kinds of other things that need "editing" in the stems, or why we all "edit" so much. Because the people doing it know it can be easily fixed so they often enough don't even bother performing it right, if they can.

That was not the reality in 1960.
for "real" musicians it's still not the reality today, so far as I see it anway.
For all of the correction tools that are available (and used), I'm still blown away when I get to work with top notch musicians. Whether it be classical, Jazz, pop, rock etc, it's pretty humbling when you see just how good a lot of them are (despite what forums and the net would have us believe.

We did some stuff A while back with a singer that we knew at the time of recording was going to be auto tuned for effect later and all mangled up and harmonized artificially etc. She was still bang on with the performance however. And actually, because of that the re-tuning was a lot easier to do and didn't kill the life of the track because she was so spot on with the performance.

The problem comes now that the expectation in popular rock/pop stuff is sheer perfection. which is not possible.
So even fantastic backing vocals or doubles are volcaligned so that every consonant of every syllable line up perfectly. even a 2 cent deviation from pitch is corrected. live drums are quantized and sample replaced if every hit is not perfect etc. So you end with a recording that nobody could ever actually perform for real.
However real good performances take the treatment much better than mediocre or bad ones that started out with the "who cares, we'll fix it later" attitude.

Still not the case with Jazz and classical thank goodness.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:44 PM   #94
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FIXES R US.
Lol. Pretty much.

I swear, in the last.... maybe ... 7 years... there was only one singer I recorded who sung a song all the way through, with no errors. One. Uno. She was a gospel singer. We did more passes, but not to fix anything she did wrong, just to have more passes to choose from and just in case she hit something unexpected.

Most of the rest could barely get through a full verse.

And that's not a knock on those people. They're all more musically talented than me. It more points to them knowing how flexible digital is fixing stuff so they don't spend lots of time rehearsing.

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Old 07-09-2015, 02:04 PM   #95
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for "real" musicians it's still not the reality today, so far as I see it anway.
Oh it is... ... but that never applies to really good musicians. But it is. There are many easy examples with drummers who didn't tune the kit well or bass players missing notes in songs they should arguably know how to play before they get to the studio, all of that can be easily fixed now.

"Producer Guy" directs all of those fixes after all the tracks are recorded, and sometimes literally replaces people with samplers.

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Still not the case with Jazz and classical thank goodness.
True. More conventional jazz and classical groups, for the most part anyway, don't play that. You might quantize a modern rock band but quantizing a standard jazz band is kinda like quantizing Funkadelic, all kinds of wrong.

This has been a fun discussion. Thanks guys.
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:43 PM   #96
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I'm still blown away when I get to work with top notch musicians.
I'm almost saddened to hear that the term "top notch" has to be used when describing the ability to get from the beginning to the end of a song in one go.
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:47 PM   #97
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What plugs? . They come in every modern daw. Quantize (or manually edit) to fix timing, audio or midi, nudge, auto-tune, Melodyne, stretch markers, or any number of other things that can help fix bad performances.

I can even fix a bad note in a guitar or piano chord in like, 60 seconds.

Why, pray tell, should I have to slip edit a five minute drum track to lock in the timing unless the drummer was just not a very good drummer.
Oh dude...

On a semi frequent basis, I get a guitar track from Eddie Van Stoner, who's tempo is so good that he can put all the tempos on a single track. It's always the same...

"Can you put a drum track under this?"

So I slice his track up as fine as I can, create the tempo map, slice and dice for a bit, and put something from Reason's kits or EZDrummer under it. Then the coup de grace...

"Can you do a bass track, too?"

I love that guy. He thinks I'm a farking genius.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:15 PM   #98
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I'm almost saddened to hear that the term "top notch" has to be used when describing the ability to get from the beginning to the end of a song in one go.
any idiot can get from the beginning to the end of one song in one go, even I can do that and I'm a mediocre guitar player at best

I'm talking about timing, nuance, control of dynamics (not using a compressor), feel, consistency. adaptability, attitude, knowledge, preparation etc, etc etc.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:22 PM   #99
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any idiot can get from the beginning to the end of one song in one go.
I'd beg to differ based on some of the people I know. But I'll still add I'm sad top notch has to be ascribed to just being able to play well. Top notch should be one single take, mind blown, see ya' done. I get what your saying though and I'm sure we are on the same page, I'm just babbling a bit because I grew up in a rougher, tougher world, IMHO of course.
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Old 07-10-2015, 04:22 PM   #100
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I think Pipeline got it right early on, saying that Reaper is like a box of parts that you use to get what you want....where some other daws are more like fixed appliances. There is a bit of a diy approach in Reaper. You can likely get most of what you want, but you'll have to set it up. I prefer the Reaper approach. It isn't perfect, but with some work by the user, it can be tailored to a pretty high degree.
One of the best statements about Reaper I've seen.

Any ideal what thread Pipeline posted this, or was it in the forums?
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Old 07-10-2015, 05:15 PM   #101
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Would it be unfair for me to say many users would like toolbar/ready made user interface instead of designing it themselves? I am sure if Reaper developers would design a great default theme it would make many users happy. I am one of those.

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Old 07-11-2015, 04:14 AM   #102
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Would it be unfair for me to say many users would like toolbar/ready made user interface instead of designing it themselves? I am sure if Reaper developers would design a great default theme it would make many users happy. I am one of those.
When I started using EnergyXT a few years ago - every time I booted it up to try it I ended up with a piece of music - it just worked in such a logical productive way - and after a couple of years of using the Cubase obstacle course it was paradise.
Unfortunately though , because it's no longer developed and has stability and other unaddressed issues - I've had to look for an alternative

It's just taken me 6 months (whilst also actually producing music in EnergyXT) to get Reaper (almost) working in what I would call a useful / productive way. Knowing what I know now - I could do it all in an hour or so.
Reaper has everything we all need - it's another obstacle course - but the difference is that you CAN (eventually) work pretty much your own way.

It reminds me a bit of when I started using DrTs KCS midi sequencer in 1986 - most people gave up on it because it looked odd - and had so many options - but that at least was fairly easy to get started on - and far better than the horrible Steinberg offerings that most people used.


Regarding Franc's point - given all this tweakability - I too cannot understand why there aren't some bunches of settings available - for people coming from other daws - or just to make it easier to get started. The "quick start" guide is no help at all - in fact it will be all the more daunting for a lot of people.

I tried Reaper many times over the last few years and each time gave up in disgust - everything seemed to be set up totally wrong.
..but now I've persisted with it I have an excellent workstation with some brilliant and amazing features.

I have tried all the DAWs over the years - and they are all either bloated and sometimes extremely anti- creative - or just don't have what you need. (The last time I tried Ableton - with all of it's neat productive features - it didn't have shared / ghost parts - what!!??)

..........BUT - if somebody decides to pay good money for a program - and it looks good on first impression - that's what they will go for.
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Old 07-11-2015, 04:23 AM   #103
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Would it be unfair for me to say many users would like toolbar/ready made user interface instead of designing it themselves? I am sure if Reaper developers would design a great default theme it would make many users happy. I am one of those.
Why not bundle a few of the best user-created themes and make it very simple to switch between them?

I wasn't keen on the default theme, but I stuck with it just long enough to follow Kenny's Reaper Explained videos. Then I switched to the API theme, and now Reaper is the best-looking and most intuitive DAW I've ever used!
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Old 07-12-2015, 06:12 PM   #104
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Would it be unfair for me to say many users would like toolbar/ready made user interface instead of designing it themselves? I am sure if Reaper developers would design a great default theme it would make many users happy. I am one of those.
Soon after getting a full grip on REAPER and its functioning, I started thinking that it would be good if there was some kind of very-well-set-up Beginners Config for those new to DAWs who are overwhelmed by any full, high-quality DAW system like REAPER. Or else what Judders said: a collection of suggested Configs to try out, much like skins.

To two chaps totally new to DAWs and trying REAPER for the first time, I've set up their REAPER with my own latest config and they were rockin' away in no time. Not saying mine is any better than anyone else's who has been using this DAW for a couple of years, but it sure makes me happy, is efficient, has some handy extras in a toolbar all accross the top row and a few other helpful tweaks. Made all the difference for me.

If nothing else, I'd just like to see newbies get off to a better start than I'm seeing in REAPER -- and with most other DAWs for that matter. There's just so much crap in most DAWs and the learning curve is way high for those who haven't been recording since the '70s, such as myself!
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Old 07-12-2015, 06:26 PM   #105
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Soon after getting a full grip on REAPER and its functioning, I started thinking that it would be good if there was some kind of very-well-set-up Beginners Config for those new to DAWs who are overwhelmed by any full, high-quality DAW system like REAPER. Or else what Judders said: a collection of suggested Configs to try out, much like skins...
+++++++ Especially in a Sticky with some minimal segregation into mainstream categories. I use Omnisphere, Trilian, Stylus RMX heavily.
hopi __ once posted a full setup he used after much refining and it has helped me immensely to get productive and enjoy Reaper far more.

Such a great and workable suggestion!

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Old 07-12-2015, 11:41 PM   #106
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Have a look in the Newbies section. I lobbied for a sticky for it for quite a while before it finally made it.

EDIT: This refers to the STICKIED newbie configuration already provided by a kindly (and talented) user.

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Old 07-13-2015, 09:03 PM   #107
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I'd beg to differ based on some of the people I know. But I'll still add I'm sad top notch has to be ascribed to just being able to play well. Top notch should be one single take, mind blown, see ya' done. I get what your saying though and I'm sure we are on the same page, I'm just babbling a bit because I grew up in a rougher, tougher world, IMHO of course.
The best single feature any DAW provides is super duper easy punch-in recording.

Of course that was one take!
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:00 AM   #108
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That's because making such statements is conflating fidelity and audial presentation with songwriting and musicianship; two completely different things. It's a well-intended debate fallacy
“Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do.” - Mark Twain
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:55 AM   #109
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When I started using EnergyXT a few years ago - every time I booted it up to try it I ended up with a piece of music - it just worked in such a logical productive way - and after a couple of years of using the Cubase obstacle course it was paradise.
Unfortunately though , because it's no longer developed and has stability and other unaddressed issues - I've had to look for an alternative

It's just taken me 6 months (whilst also actually producing music in EnergyXT) to get Reaper (almost) working in what I would call a useful / productive way. Knowing what I know now - I could do it all in an hour or so.
Reaper has everything we all need - it's another obstacle course - but the difference is that you CAN (eventually) work pretty much your own way.

It reminds me a bit of when I started using DrTs KCS midi sequencer in 1986 - most people gave up on it because it looked odd - and had so many options - but that at least was fairly easy to get started on - and far better than the horrible Steinberg offerings that most people used.


Regarding Franc's point - given all this tweakability - I too cannot understand why there aren't some bunches of settings available - for people coming from other daws - or just to make it easier to get started. The "quick start" guide is no help at all - in fact it will be all the more daunting for a lot of people.

I tried Reaper many times over the last few years and each time gave up in disgust - everything seemed to be set up totally wrong.
..but now I've persisted with it I have an excellent workstation with some brilliant and amazing features.

I have tried all the DAWs over the years - and they are all either bloated and sometimes extremely anti- creative - or just don't have what you need. (The last time I tried Ableton - with all of it's neat productive features - it didn't have shared / ghost parts - what!!??)

..........BUT - if somebody decides to pay good money for a program - and it looks good on first impression - that's what they will go for.
Tweakability, customisation, choices, choices, choices - I've come to the conclusion this is very rarely a good thing. Most people seem to sing the praises of these things (I used to!! - but I don't anymore) but, in reality, they rarely actually benefit you. Being able to endlessly tweak rarely makes you more productive because your mind - your mental attitude when using a program that offers this - is constantly drifting back towards this - always looking for ways to change, improve, speed up workflow, downloading the latest new theme, the latest menu re-organisation etc. This, imo, is not what you should be thinking about when making music.

It took you 6 months to build Reaper into something that allowed you to work as you did in XT - that's a heck of a long time to be concerned with matters other than making music.

The thing that benefits you the most is familiarity which is why I see the benefits of working with a fixed set of goal posts these days - and actually getting work done.

Just food for thought concerning the (imo) generally false paradigm of customisability being a good thing.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:32 AM   #110
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You need to find the threshold for optimizing vs gaming.

If you can identify repetitive things you find yourself doing in your workflow, there are many scenarios where the optimization can save you lots of hours vs the time it took to dial it in.

The danger is getting sucked in to messing with things just for the heck of it and this is where is basically becomes the equivalent of a computer game.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:33 AM   #111
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It took you 6 months to build Reaper into something that allowed you to work as you did in XT - that's a heck of a long time to be concerned with matters other than making music.

The thing that benefits you the most is familiarity which is why I see the benefits of working with a fixed set of goal posts these days - and actually getting work done.

Just food for thought concerning the (imo) generally false paradigm of customisability being a good thing.
Yes - totally agree - that's why I resisted Reaper for so long - and always went back to EnergyXT - but unfortunately the crashes and virtually zero development have forced me to find another DAW -

and I would also advise any musician NOT to get too much into the tweaks - get the music done first and foremost - however (IMO) Reaper HAS to be tweaked to be usable and productive

PS: in the 6 months I was still making music with Energy!
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:45 AM   #112
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“Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do.” - Mark Twain
Unfortunately a 50 cent word won't do or people wouldn't keep confusing fidelity with songwriting.
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Old 07-14-2015, 08:30 AM   #113
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Unfortunately a 50 cent word won't do or people wouldn't keep confusing fidelity with songwriting.
...... and this is 2015! Try and buy a decent coffee without a few fivers in your pocket. Didn't 50 Cent just go bankrupt? Maybe I'm just conflating this discussion ....
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Old 07-14-2015, 08:39 AM   #114
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Have a look in the Newbies section. I lobbied for a sticky for it for quite a while before it finally made it.

EDIT: This refers to the STICKIED newbie configuration already provided by a kindly (and talented) user.

Ahem! For those of you moaning about there not being a newbie-oriented setup for reaper......
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Old 07-14-2015, 10:01 AM   #115
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however (IMO) Reaper HAS to be tweaked to be usable and productive
I would disagree. Other than finding a theme I like very much, I haven't modified Reaper in any way. I use a very small part of SWS, but that's become almost a standard feature of Reaper now. So, right out of the box, up and running. I would call that the newbie configuration.

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Old 07-14-2015, 10:10 AM   #116
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I would disagree. Other than finding a theme I like very much, I haven't modified Reaper in any way. I use a very small part of SWS, but that's become almost a standard feature of Reaper now. So, right out of the box, up and running. I would call that the newbie configuration.
Same here, save for changing a handful of keyboard shortcuts.

I think the button symbols don't help. I went for a theme with text on the buttons.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:06 AM   #117
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...... and this is 2015! Try and buy a decent coffee without a few fivers in your pocket. Didn't 50 Cent just go bankrupt? Maybe I'm just conflating this discussion ....
That's right! We should adjust for inflation and conflation.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:10 AM   #118
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I would disagree. Other than finding a theme I like very much, I haven't modified Reaper in any way. I use a very small part of SWS, but that's become almost a standard feature of Reaper now. So, right out of the box, up and running. I would call that the newbie configuration.
Fine - but I did say "IMO" - I could list dozens of settings / shortcuts I've had to modify for my purposes - but I accept that other people work in different ways and do totally different things to me.

I note you mention the SWS stuff though - which I also use to a fair degree - and finding a theme - that can hardly be termed "out of the box!"
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:39 AM   #119
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Fine - but I did say "IMO" - I could list dozens of settings / shortcuts I've had to modify for my purposes - but I accept that other people work in different ways and do totally different things to me.
The only thing about that is there is no set of settings that fit everyone. Intuitive is relative to where each person came from previously. It used to be we could at least pattern after the analog audio/console world but that has been so long that many users are oblivious it ever existed and methods in general have changed due to non-linear editing and so on.

There is no true standard here to go by, at least not across the board. Each person or group of people familiar with a certain workflow all think "any idiot should do it this way" but that is becoming more and more segmented. Of course there will be a good number that are no-brainers but we want to remember that each DAW attacks the problem differently... Some target a particular audience or workflow, others try to pack in every conceivable feature, others say, you can do what you want but you need to set it up yourself.

My advice has always been find which of the above which is the closest fit and do that. However, don't do that, dislike something else about that software, then go to another software and expect it to only be what the other was missing or suddenly change its development course because you showed up (the proverbial you). Find the one that is closest and make it work. Anything worth doing in such a complex platform (DAWs) is going to take some work. Remember people used to go to school for stuff like this because it is a skill at the end of the day.. YMMV

And to be clear, I'm here because I did what I'm suggesting. If I couldn't get what I need out of Reaper, I would very quickly go find one that is closer to what I need.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:55 AM   #120
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What he said. The use of "intuitive" as relates to daws is very much over blown. What people really mean when they say that is...

"For whatever reason, it was easy for - me - to operate without digging into the manual too much."

Which doesn't mean that will be true for everyone else.

You can design a thing that - most - users will find very easy to learn and use that actually doesn't work like anything else they've ever used before at all, and vice versa, design a thing that - looks - like something a lot of people have used before but is odd or different in enough ways to make it harder to initially learn and use.

There is absolutely nothing "intuitive" (for example), about Reaper's routing. It's a thing you learn how to use and after you learn it, it's easy enough. Same with it's record monitoring, you learn how it works and it's easy enough, but before that it's likely that you've never even seen a daw that can't monitor without the record button on without going into a special mode.
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