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05-10-2009, 07:29 AM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbam
Regarding ceiling clouds/traps, again I refer you to the gearslutz forum I previously posted. Lots of suggestions and tutorials there.
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gah. it looks as tricky as i thought it would be.
alright, plan B: would there be any point to making some smaller 6" thick traps to sit on top of the speakers?
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05-10-2009, 08:44 AM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
gah. it looks as tricky as i thought it would be.
alright, plan B: would there be any point to making some smaller 6" thick traps to sit on top of the speakers?
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No - the goal is to treat the room - not the speakers. Your plan B would actually create additional problems and not provide the solution you're seeking.
Clouds really aren't that difficult to install but unless you are really skilled at this sort of thing (from your comments, I gather that you are not) you definitely need 2 people to install them. I had 2 people assist me but my ceiling is almost 11 ft high so we needed a couple of high ladders - a bit tricky but it worked fine.
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05-10-2009, 12:30 PM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
also, how the hell do you attach ceiling traps?!?
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Have a look here:
http://realtraps.com/install_mt.htm
Perhaps you can adapt something from that to the panels you built.
__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I think the gun sort of helps."
- Eddie Izzard
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05-10-2009, 12:31 PM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbam
No - the goal is to treat the room - not the speakers. Your plan B would actually create additional problems and not provide the solution you're seeking.
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I'll second that advice.
__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I think the gun sort of helps."
- Eddie Izzard
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05-10-2009, 12:57 PM
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#45
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 362
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I did a couple of different things to install clouds. But I was installing semi-ridgid 703 panels and a 705 panel which is much more ridgid. All panels were 2x4. For the 705 panel, I used what you typically use for wood stud braces. Installed on it's side and affixed to the ceiling on one side of it, the rest of the brace acts like a hanging shelf which the panel rests on. For the 705 panel, I used four braces, one each on the short sides, one each on the long sides- centered. It has the added benefit of dropping down the panel from the ceiling which creates a nice gap, which extends the frequency range of the trap...I think that's right! It's been years since I've had this stuff in my brain! For the less ridgid 703 1" thick panels, I used what you use to install a drop ceiling. The edges are sold by the piece too thankfully, so you can design your own shape and not buy into a WHOLE ceiling system. The main reason why this worked is because the panels are a uniform 2x4, which works perfectly with drop ceiling hardware. I affixed the hardware like you would any drop ceiling system- wire and hangers. Works quite well and in both cases here, I managed by myself.
Here's a pretty terrible pic of the cloud-
I put rope lights up there too, for some color. I just layed them up in no particular way. I have two lighting modes in my place- white lights for seeing/reading, and all color for a darker ambiance thing. That cloud looks quite cool in color mode. And believe it or not, that little cloud configuration works quite well. I've had upwright bass players under that and I get an amazing, trouble free sound. It works great, especially considering the large gap from the ceiling too, which like I said extends the frequency range.
Do yourself a favor- get to a home center like home depot or lowes and just walk around in hardware and such and you'll get your plan together, no problem. It helps to be right in front of all the products to get it together. And when it come to ceiling clouds, ridgid makes things easier. Either that or just install a full drop ceiling with acoustical panel dropins, which will make a full ceiling cloud and help to make the whole ceiling just 'disappear'.
Dan
Last edited by shockwave199; 05-10-2009 at 01:02 PM.
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05-10-2009, 01:03 PM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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So - are clouds supposed to be 1" thick?
Kyle
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"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
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05-10-2009, 01:23 PM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs
So - are clouds supposed to be 1" thick?
Kyle
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They should be at least that. Thicker (e.g., 3" to 4") is better (as thicker panels will give you additional bass absorption there too). But 1" is generally adequate for high and mid frequency first reflections, which is the primary thing you are looking to eliminate with the cloud over your mix position.
I keep saying thicker because the bottom line is . . . the more bass absorption you can put in your studio, the better. It's pretty much impossible to put too much bass absorption in a small room, and, in most cases, it's hard for people to put in enough bass absorption, due to various functional and perhaps aesthetic limitations.
More bass absorption is always better. Further, this is a two-way benefit. It improves the sound quality going in (i.e., whatever you record with microphones in that room), and it improves the sound quality that you hear from your monitors.
Broadband/bass absorption is, dollar for dollar, the best, most cost-effective, and most noticeable improvement can possibly make to your studio.
Unfortunately, it's usually the LAST thing people think about when they are setting up their studios . . . and then when they finally DO get to hear the difference, they notice that the improvements are NOT SUBTLE!
__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I think the gun sort of helps."
- Eddie Izzard
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05-10-2009, 01:25 PM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave199
Do yourself a favor- get to a home center like home depot or lowes and just walk around in hardware and such and you'll get your plan together, no problem. It helps to be right in front of all the products to get it together.
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Excellent advice. I've done this myself on a number of occasions for exactly that reason. It really is helpful to just walk around and see what resources are available to you, and just come up with new ways to put things together.
__________________
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But I think the gun sort of helps."
- Eddie Izzard
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05-10-2009, 02:34 PM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,716
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One thing Ethan recommended was to alternate the spacing of the panels so that a panel is opposite blank wall. As i recall, this was recommended specifically for a small room, but i may be remembering that wrong; it was a long time ago.
The panels pictured below are 703 with the foil facing. Ethan recommended facing the foil toward the room in order to reflect highs. The idea was that highs (and to a slightly lesser extent, mids) are often over-absorbed. So he suggested i focus on lows knowing that highs and mids would be taken care of too. He said facing the foil toward the source would have a minor affect, but should help some.
He also suggested that 2" panels be positioned 2" from the wall... 3" panels should be 3" from the wall... 4" panels should be 4" away... etc.
The ceiling panels are suspended via wire, attached to hooks in the ceiling, run through to the face of the panel, and attached to buttons on the face. The wall panels are impaled onto nails pounded through a wooden slat which is mounted 2" from the wall.
oh! listen to Bubba; he knows what he's talking about.
tj
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It may be the devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna hafta serve somebody.
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Last edited by teej813; 05-10-2009 at 02:41 PM.
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05-10-2009, 02:52 PM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 362
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Yeah, you'd be amazed at all the gadgets and things available to you at home centers. Things meant for completely different applications work well too. Be as creative as you would be mixing! LOL!
I just want to make a disclaimer here. In the world of acoustic treatment knowledge, I pretty much know shit. I took the advise of people who did know what's what and got the best stuff I could afford [except perhaps that FMB!] and installed it the best I could and hoped for the best. My ears are my technical desicion makers, not room wizards and things. I seemed to have gotten pretty lucky in my control room, my vocal booth, and my live room. Although, eleven serious bass traps from Ethan in my control room knocks down the luck factor by a great deal. I like what I hear through the mics and I like what I hear in my mixes. Room for improvement? Absolutely, but real traps for instance, do go a long way to helping us poor souls with less than ideal small rooms to at least have a fighting chance. I even learned that while the best installers can calculate and do things just so, in the end it's a dose of luck thrown in there too. Minus real knowledge except for cramming at the time, and a bit of luck, I'm doing well- even with that darn FBM! Scott here seems to have this stuff down pat. Look to him and people like him for the real skinny. I'm just chiming in with some pics and simply saying that even an acoustical hack like me can get in the ballpark of acceptable results. It's certainly better than doing nothing at all, or worse yet- completely covering everything with foam. And in that instance, even lower quality foam like FBM WILL do something majorly stricking to the sound of your rooms...like completely ruin it! LOL!
Best of luck. Don't forget the great acoustical forums out there too. They are a blessing to us all these days.
Also TJ, I got real traps with foil face from Ethan as well. Only over the foil is a white cloth he installs for looks. And that was back when his line of products wasn't as extensive as it is now. So much great stuff there. In fact, even auralex has 703 ridgid products now too, right? Most companies seem to have them now. It is THAT type of product I'd get from someone like auralex, rather than foam, these days.
Dan
Last edited by shockwave199; 05-10-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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05-10-2009, 03:19 PM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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this is an older house, though - the main thing i'm worried about is that i'm not sure if the plaster ceiling would hold any serious weight. really don't want 6kg worth of ceiling trap falling on my head during a mix.
i've been doing a bit more subjective listening and the room is definitely a lot better since i stuck those corner traps in, so i'm not fretting too much.
thanks again for the amazing advice, you people rule.
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05-10-2009, 04:53 PM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 483
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Anybody who is too lazy to build their own proper traps need to check out this site:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/
I'm not affiliated with them at all but I trust the guy who is running it (more than some other "reputable" acoustic companies). The prices are extremely generous as well. You don't save that much actually by building it yourself.
I'm getting two of their mondo bass traps at some point, to further enhance the bass response of our studio (which is already excellent due to A LOT of properly done bass traps).
Cheers!
bManic
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05-11-2009, 06:26 AM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Posts: 69
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I'm with you on using GIK.
To fellow Brits, they are making them in Bradford now, so very reasonable delivery.
Now here's the good bit.. They will design your room treatment for you.
I sent them a drawing and some photos and had some email discussions with the acoustic designer who did a fine job for me.
Did not cost me a thing.
Great product imo. I got them in the off white though some might prefer the black. A mix of the 244 and 242 panels.
I highly recommend them.
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05-11-2009, 07:00 AM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewolfman
I'm with you on using GIK.
To fellow Brits, they are making them in Bradford now, so very reasonable delivery.
Now here's the good bit.. They will design your room treatment for you.
I sent them a drawing and some photos and had some email discussions with the acoustic designer who did a fine job for me.
Did not cost me a thing.
Great product imo. I got them in the off white though some might prefer the black. A mix of the 244 and 242 panels.
I highly recommend them.
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Yes, great product, price and services. I'd also recommend Ready Acoustics ( https://www.readyacoustics.com/). Joel DuBay is the guy I've worked with there and he has provided a great deal of assistance at no charge. He will do a room analysis for you and make various recommendations based on your budget. I've mainly purchased his DIY panel bags which are great and look quite high-end once installed - the material is strong, well constructed and looks like suede once installed.
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05-11-2009, 08:28 AM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
this is an older house, though - the main thing i'm worried about is that i'm not sure if the plaster ceiling would hold any serious weight. really don't want 6kg worth of ceiling trap falling on my head during a mix.
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There is lath behind that there plaster. Anchor to the lath. My last house was built in 1905 and was plaster and lath. Just put a molly or toggle bolt straight through a piece of lath and you will be fine. If you have newer plaster construction, they likely used steel lath (sort of like harware cloth or chicken wire). A molly into that stuff will never come down. Try doing some demolition on that stuff and you will quickly understand.
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05-11-2009, 09:27 AM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
There is lath behind that there plaster. Anchor to the lath.
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Better to find, drill and anchor to the stud, not the lath, and mount whatever it is without even stressing the lath and plaster, much less having it bear weight.
Trust me, I've lived in enough old lath-&-plaster buildings. Lath was never meant to bear weight or stress, especially after 60-100 years of internal expansion and contraction. At best, you'll develop cracks in the surrounding plaster as the old semi-deteriorated lath separates from the crumbly plaster in front of it from the drilling and mounting.
Truly, I hate that stuff.
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05-11-2009, 09:52 AM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
Last edited by plgrmsprgrs; 05-11-2009 at 11:38 AM.
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05-11-2009, 10:29 AM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezmotivnik
Better to find, drill and anchor to the stud, not the lath, and mount whatever it is without even stressing the lath and plaster, much less having it bear weight.
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Very true, but with 6kg (16 lbs) this shouldn't be an issue. I guess I don't value my plaster much as I was always patching it anyway.
plgrmsprgrs: First off, cover the wall to ceiling corners first (above the curtains, on the side with the guitars, above the door and copieretc). That is an easy win. Also, hit the corners where you can (filing cabinet corners, back by the copier). 2x4 panels may not lie perfectly 45 degrees across the corner, but so what? Get as close as you can. Treatment at a shallower angle is still better than smaller or no treatment. Also, panels in front of those built in book shelves would be great. The book shelves give you a nice air gap. Just clean off the ledge and lean them up there. Think more portable for these sorts of traps. Throw them up while mixing and pile them in the corner the rest of the time. Maybe move some of that stuff into the attic?
Last edited by Bubbagump; 05-11-2009 at 10:39 AM.
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05-11-2009, 10:44 AM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: California
Posts: 1,436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
Very true, but with 6kg (16 lbs) this shouldn't be an issue.
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Actually it is. Simply putting something like a nail or screw in old L&P without pre-drilling into a backing stud is often enough to start the avalanche, the sort of thing that would be funny if it was happening to someone else. Oy, I could tell you stories!
But anyway, good luck!
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05-12-2009, 02:31 PM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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Bubba,
Great idea for the portables on the back bookshelves! Anything on the wall to ceiling above these shelves? How many panels over the curtains/guitars/door(= front and right/left sides after I've moved)? I suppose anything is better than the way it is now.
Kyle
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
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05-12-2009, 07:30 PM
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#61
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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ok, i thought of a way to mount ceiling traps without touching the ceiling.
my room is about 2.5m wide. the corner traps i've built are about 2.4m tall.
i figure i can make one more of those 2.4m x 0.6m traps, put up some *wall* brackets near the ceiling, above the listening position, and just slot it up against that. that way there won't be any contact with the ceiling. can bolt it in so it's safe.
there'll be a 2" gap on each side (left/right). it'll be about 30% of the way down the room, and there'll be about a 4" air gap behind it. does that sound do-able?
this comes at the expense of a rear-wall trap, though.
any thoughts?
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05-13-2009, 08:11 AM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs
Bubba,
Great idea for the portables on the back bookshelves! Anything on the wall to ceiling above these shelves? How many panels over the curtains/guitars/door(= front and right/left sides after I've moved)?
Kyle
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The answer to all your questions... more is better... so whatever you can cram in. If you can fit things wall to ceiling over the shelves, do it. Put in as many traps as will fit above the window etc.
dub: Expense of a rear wall trap... why is that? As for your idea... what ever you can do is a help. However, if you can (as i am fuzzy on your description) get the traps across the corner. Touching the ceiling doesn't matter as a bit of an off set doesn't effect much. But the closer to the corner the better. While a trap floating in the middle of the room will help, placement in the corners does so much more.
Last edited by Bubbagump; 05-13-2009 at 08:14 AM.
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05-13-2009, 08:48 AM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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Thanks again Bubba!
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"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
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05-13-2009, 06:40 PM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: melbourne
Posts: 1
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Hi there. This is my first post on this forum so I better declare my bias! I run a small acoustics company in Australia that manufacturers acoustic foam panels and bass traps. Much of the work I do involves going out on site, performing acoustic measurements, installing an acoustic treatment, then performing post measurements to verify effectiveness.
I've had a look at your pictures, and your room has a lot going for it. Bookshelves loaded with books are my favorite improvised diffuser absorber!
On the downside, low frequencies are going to be the issue, always tough to totally control in a small room. Improvement is what you will be hoping to achieve. As Ethan Winer says (great traps),if you can get a frequency response within 10db you are doing well.
Your most practical and effective locations for treatment are your ceiling corners, but your trapping will need to be well designed and substantial. If you could treat all the corners I would. From an acoustic foam perspective,in nearly every small room I use big chunky (but a bit ugly in the ceiling) 600 x 600 x 150mm air gap traps as smaller corner traps won't cut the mustard below 100Hz.I have read many negative comments regarding the effectiveness of acoustic foam traps, and this is most likely relates to small designs. For example, we manufacture a trap that is 1200mm high, 800mm wide and 180mm thick, which is fine if you have the space. Real Traps would also be great in this room, and they are quite compact.
In regards to the 1" foam you have, this will not have much low freq absorption, and as you have limited wall space,you may want to applying something with a bit more grunt. Maybe apply it over some of you home made panels to extend low frequency absorption.
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05-13-2009, 07:38 PM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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+1 for acoustic foam can make a difference, if it's decent stuff and positioned properly - here's a link to graphs taken after i installed 4 600x600x150 foam traps (that may possibly be the ones you make).
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...52&postcount=8
fixed two null points really well. note, i spent a while experimenting with trap positioning.
i've combined those with some gigantic (floor-to-ceiling) ugly homemade traps and i think i've sorted out the worst of my problems (but those two nodes at 120 and 170 are still causing me grief - i think i might be stuck with that due to tiny room size though).
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05-13-2009, 08:59 PM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman
I have read many negative comments regarding the effectiveness of acoustic foam traps, and this is most likely relates to small designs.
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No, it relates to crappy foam. LENRDs work for example, but they are NOT what you get from FBM.
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05-14-2009, 06:19 AM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000
+1 for acoustic foam can make a difference, if it's decent stuff and positioned properly - here's a link to graphs taken after i installed 4 600x600x150 foam traps (that may possibly be the ones you make).
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...52&postcount=8
fixed two null points really well. note, i spent a while experimenting with trap positioning.
i've combined those with some gigantic (floor-to-ceiling) ugly homemade traps and i think i've sorted out the worst of my problems (but those two nodes at 120 and 170 are still causing me grief - i think i might be stuck with that due to tiny room size though).
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I checked out the link you posted. They make some really interesting and creative foam products and the specs on the bass traps seem almost unbelievable (absorption to 35hz??). I'm not saying its not correct but I've NEVER heard of any foam product that could do that. That said, to my eyes the company makes the best looking foam products I've seen and if I had the extra $, I would definitely like to have some of their panels in my studio just for the design factor alone.
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05-14-2009, 09:18 AM
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#68
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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I've been researching sources for 703/rockwool, and one dealer suggested this stuff. Anyone familiar with it? Here are the specs on acoustical properties.
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05-14-2009, 09:28 AM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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PolyZorb is ok, but you will needs TONS of it to be as effective as a single 2" or 4" broad band trap. PolyZorb is thin and made mostly to line the inside of motor housings and other machines to keep down some of the squeal. Note how little it does below 500hz... but what do you expect from something that is barely 3/4" think at its thickest? I wouldn't bother with the stuff personally except for a single use.... lining the inside of a PC case to keep down some fan noise. This guy is obviously a Johns Manville dealer, so he should be able to get you this stuff:
http://www.jm.com/insulation/perform...glas_board.pdf
That is what you really want.
As for the foam dub linked too... I can't find any specs on it and read the whole thread. His testing methods are suspect to me. (Don't mean to crap in your lap...)
Last edited by Bubbagump; 05-14-2009 at 09:43 AM.
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05-14-2009, 09:50 AM
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#70
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 2,021
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Checked out your link Bubba - looks like they have a choice of 3 densities at 2" thickness. Is there one density that is closest to OC703. I suppose the more dense the better, but I don't want to pay more than I have to if the lesser density matches 703.
__________________
"Same as it ever was . . . " - David Byrne
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05-14-2009, 09:57 AM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs
Checked out your link Bubba - looks like they have a choice of 3 densities at 2" thickness. Is there one density that is closest to OC703. I suppose the more dense the better, but I don't want to pay more than I have to if the lesser density matches 703.
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OC703 is 3pcf. OC705 is 6pcf. (Not sure why it isn't called 706, but whatever) The 3pcf stuff should cost about $80 for ~8 2" boards.
Last edited by Bubbagump; 05-14-2009 at 10:02 AM.
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05-14-2009, 12:54 PM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
OC703 is 3pcf. OC705 is 6pcf. (Not sure why it isn't called 706, but whatever) The 3pcf stuff should cost about $80 for ~8 2" boards.
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That's a very good deal. The best I've found in Phoenix (a really large city) is $12.40 per panel for OC703. - before sales tax.
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05-14-2009, 01:14 PM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbam
That's a very good deal. The best I've found in Phoenix (a really large city) is $12.40 per panel for OC703. - before sales tax.
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I have given up on the OC products as they are just expensive and I find are tough to find in my area. Certainteed and Johns Manville are much more reasonable.
Another good Johns Manville product:
http://www.jm.com/insulation/buildin...sul-shield.pdf
It specs better than what I linked to before (couldn't find the link at the time). Been getting the I/S300 for about $83 for a box of (9) 2" boards. So don't limit yourself to OC. There are several makers of this sort of stuff. Distribution seems to be regional (Certainteed more prevalent in some areas, JM in others, a preference for mineral wool versus fiber glass in other areas etc.) so just call around and see what you can get the best price on. As an FYI, the Certainteed stuff goes under the "OEM series". So OEM300 is their 3pcf board. OEM600 is their 6pcf board.
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/3037001.pdf
Roxul:
http://www.roxul.com/graphics/RX-NA/...T80-7-3-08.pdf
Fibrex:
http://www.fibrexinsulations.com/pdf...trialBoard.pdf
Can you tell I have spent entirely too much time sourcing this stuff? However, compare the specs. They are all nearly identical within the same material at the same density... some slight variance likely due to test facilities and other small variables.
Last edited by Bubbagump; 05-14-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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05-14-2009, 02:43 PM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
I have given up on the OC products as they are just expensive and I find are tough to find in my area. Certainteed and Johns Manville are much more reasonable.
Another good Johns Manville product:
http://www.jm.com/insulation/buildin...sul-shield.pdf
It specs better than what I linked to before (couldn't find the link at the time). Been getting the I/S300 for about $83 for a box of (9) 2" boards. So don't limit yourself to OC. There are several makers of this sort of stuff. Distribution seems to be regional (Certainteed more prevalent in some areas, JM in others, a preference for mineral wool versus fiber glass in other areas etc.) so just call around and see what you can get the best price on. As an FYI, the Certainteed stuff goes under the "OEM series". So OEM300 is their 3pcf board. OEM600 is their 6pcf board.
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/3037001.pdf
Roxul:
http://www.roxul.com/graphics/RX-NA/...T80-7-3-08.pdf
Fibrex:
http://www.fibrexinsulations.com/pdf...trialBoard.pdf
Can you tell I have spent entirely too much time sourcing this stuff? However, compare the specs. They are all nearly identical within the same material at the same density... some slight variance likely due to test facilities and other small variables.
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Thanks! Unfortunately, the only product available in the southwest is roxul and it would have to be shipped from Colorado to AZ. The shipping costs would probably outweigh the savings but I will check. I need about 24 more 2" panels to create some corner chunks and finish some other treatment.
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05-15-2009, 02:18 AM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdru
Better to spend your money on raw OC 703 (or the Rockwool equivalent) and some fabric, to make your own broadband panels.
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I wish I knew the german equivilent to that. I really need to set up a new mixing room in the next couple of weeks.
Anyone know - or a german forum that deals with DIY accoustics ?
Cheers
maa
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05-15-2009, 08:05 AM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbam
Thanks! Unfortunately, the only product available in the southwest is roxul and it would have to be shipped from Colorado to AZ.
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Really? I have to imagine someone can get it. You're not trying hard enough.
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05-15-2009, 08:17 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: frankonia
Posts: 1,996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maa
I wish I knew the german equivilent to that. I really need to set up a new mixing room in the next couple of weeks.
Anyone know - or a german forum that deals with DIY accoustics ?
Cheers
maa
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Hi maa,
that stuff cannot be sold in Europe. It is regarded to be harmful for the health.
Couple of years ago I was in your situation... read all these *fantastic* comments about that material. And found out it will not be available in Europe... so, don't we have good studio acoustic in Europe? No.
I had the pleasure to visit some recording sessions at Bayerischer Rundfunk in Munich. Fantastic acoustic, all created by wood. Unaffordable to me, though...
I ended up with some wooden diffusors (special offer at that time - made in China) plus some DYI foam thingies at the right locations in various thicknesses made from Basotect foam.
( http://www.westaflex.com/produkte/ak...-daemmmaterial)
Great results! google for it...
BTW: Where is your location in Germany?
__________________
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Don't read this sentence to it's end, please.
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05-15-2009, 08:36 AM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: frankonia
Posts: 1,996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
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I am talking about this particular substance 0C 703 and these only.
Sure you can have rockwool or mineral wool in Germany... for roof insulation. This is optimized for thermal insulation and not for acoustic. Can make a big difference. If I'd use it in my studio I would lock it air tight (cancerogen needles floating through the air) and this might again hamper the acoustic effect...
Anyway. I am ultra-happy with my solution. I have carefully measured before / inbetween / after. It worked excellent on paper and in my ears
Cheers
__________________
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Don't read this sentence to it's end, please.
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05-15-2009, 10:34 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Prescott
Posts: 443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump
Really? I have to imagine someone can get it. You're not trying hard enough.
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Well it seems you aren't really aware of the complexities involved in distribution/retail agreements within this industry. This is compounded by the fact that many insulation retailers in Phoenix won't sell products to those who don't possess a contractor's license. Some will do it but not all. Also, I live in a small town - 2 hr drive from Phoenix so I have to do all of my research online and/or by phone. It becomes time-consuming in the extreme!
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