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Old 02-12-2016, 07:31 AM   #1
memyselfandus
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Default Reaper: The Most Flexable Daw + Microtonal Composition

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/DAWs

Reaper seems to be one of the best at microtonal options.. so far.. as well. The amount of customization in Reaper really pays off for many situations.

Reaper
Extremely flexible midi and audio routing. No built-in softsynths except ReaSynth. No problems with sysexes or multiple midi channels.

The QWERTY keyboard can be used as a midi keyboard, like most DAWs. But in Reaper, you can assign any midi note to any key. So you aren't stuck with 7 white & 5 black keys. Here's how: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/8772/reaper-vkbmap.txt

The appearance of the piano roll on the midi editor can be completely customized, e.g. more than 12 notes per octave.


ProTools
Midi tracks in ProTools can't contain multiple channels of midi data.



Logic
Logic's built-in instruments are of very high quality. There's a global setting for tuning them, and you can also import a .scl file. But they accept only 12-note-octave-repeating scales with max. +/-100 cent deviations from 12tet pitches. Logic only understands .scl files with this limitation. Logic is also incapable of changing the tuning via midi or automation, and you can only have one tuning per song.



Ableton Live
AL merges all midi channels in track sends, effect outputs and max4Live outputs into channel 1, and filters out all sysex messages and all polyphonic aftertouch messages. Midi effects, except for built-in midi effects and max4live midi effects, must be put in the audio effects section of the track. Receiving midi output from an effect requires creating an additional track and setting its input to that effect.



FL Studio
FL filters out sysex messages (undocumented, see below).
- all softsynths require only a single instance to be retunable via the pitch bend method!

http://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?p=824112
(official FL Studio forum, must register to view the full thread)
Excerpted from a July 2013 conversation with "Reflex", a site admin:
user: "The Voyager PlugSE (VST plugin) from Moog... doesn't work [in FL studio]."
Reflex: "VST plugins can send sysex out of FL, but can't receive it."
user: "Yes I guess it also receives Sysex, and so a bidirectional communication can't be established."
Reflex: "Then I don't know of any way to make it work in FL."
user: "Is it planned to add support for VST plugin to send Sysex?"
Reflex: "They already can. But they can't receive them. And that's not planned."




Cubase
has a midi insert plug-in for tuning. But it only accepts 12-note-octave-repeating scales with max. +/-100 cent deviations from 12tet pitches. However you can change the tuning in the course of a song, and have multiple tunings simultaneously (on several midi channels). However, the plug-in only works with two or three older VSTi's and not with the new, better instruments that come with Cubase 7, so in effect, it has been discontinued.

Cubase has a pitch key tracking setting for all the synths, and if that's set to .50 you get 24 keys per octave, etc., so various EDOs are possible or can be approximated.



Studio One
doesn't allow recording or playback of sysexes. Apparently Studio One also doesn't allow multi-channel midi files (see link). forums.presonus.com/posts/list/31118.page



Approaches to microtonal composition in a DAW
Software: Instrument plugins (VST/AU/etc.)
Many DAWs can load instrument plugins. A plugin is a software synthesizer which can be accessed within the DAW, affording the user more sounds. Usually the plugin is loaded on a MIDI track. Some instrument plugins are capable of being microtuned. By using such a plugin, it is possible to make microtonal music within a DAW that otherwise cannot be microtuned.

Instrument plugins interface with your DAW through one of a handful of standards. Steinberg's VST is a standard supported by many DAWs. AudioUnit (AU) is widely supported on Mac computers. RTAS is used by ProTools. Put simply, you should check your DAW's user manual to see what kind of plugins you can run.



List of microtonal software plugins
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Li...ftware+Plugins



Plugin Microtuning Methods
Instrument plugins can be developed by anybody. As such, there is no standard way to set the tuning/scale of a plugin via user input. Navigating these competing methods of inputting microtonal scales can be rather messy. But generally we can group the methods like so:

Plugins which are microtuned by reading a 'tuning file' from hard disk.
A very common method. These plugins ask the user to import a file from their hard disk, which we'll call a tuning file. Within the tuning file is the data for tuning the plugin. Such tuning files come in a variety of formats:

scl/kbm (in this case, the data is stored in 2 files not 1)
TUN
MIDI tuning dump (sysex)


You can know which type of tuning file is supported by your plugin by reading its manual or supporting documentation.

Tuning files can be created by using software. The two options are Scala or LMSO. If your plugin supports the scl/kbm format, then you can download a large database (scroll to the bottom of the page) of these files to start with.

Plugins which are microtuned via MTS (MIDI Tuning Standard).
Some plugins can accept MIDI data in the form of SysEx messages. These messages contain the tuning data. The issue with this method, is that many DAWs filter out SysEx messages. However some plugins, such as those created by Xen-Arts, allow the user to load a MIDI file (containing the SysEx messages within) directly into the plugin, thus bypassing the restriction from the DAW. (Such MIDI files can be generated by Scala).
One benefit of using MTS is that tunings can be changed during the course of a piece. This gives much flexibility in tuning for the composer. MIDI Tuning is also highly accurate. Furthermore, the user can send one set of MTS messages to several plugins/hardware synthesizers at once, thereby making the tuning process relatively convenient. However since many DAWs filter out these messages, the real benefit of MTS can not be realized by everybody.

Plugins which are microtuned by user's direct inputting of values.
ZynAddSubFX will accept user inputted values. No need to generate a tuning file (though it ZynAddSubFX can also read scl files).

Plugins which are microtuned via other methods.
Native Instruments Kontakt - write a script to retune each note (or use Scala to generate one)

Plugins which have no support for microtuning.
One workaround is to use pitch-bend to microtune a monophonic MIDI part. Polyphonic MIDI parts require multiple instances of the plugin.
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Old 02-12-2016, 07:33 AM   #2
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Here is a list of intervals. Including a huge amount of notes you cannot play on a standard instrument.
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/intervals.html

Partial List of English interval names

1/1 unison, perfect prime
2/1 octave
3/2 perfect fifth
4/3 perfect fourth
5/3 major sixth, BP sixth
5/4 major third
6/5 minor third
7/3 minimal tenth, BP tenth
7/4 harmonic seventh
7/5 septimal or Huygens' tritone, BP fourth
7/6 septimal minor third
8/5 minor sixth
8/7 septimal whole tone
9/4 major ninth
9/5 just minor seventh, BP seventh
9/7 septimal major third, BP third
9/8 major whole tone
10/7 Euler's tritone
10/9 minor whole tone
11/5 neutral ninth
11/6 21/4-tone, undecimal neutral seventh
11/7 undecimal augmented fifth
11/8 undecimal semi-augmented fourth
11/9 undecimal neutral third
11/10 4/5-tone, Ptolemy's second
12/7 septimal major sixth
12/11 3/4-tone, undecimal neutral second
13/7 16/3-tone
13/8 tridecimal neutral sixth
13/9 tridecimal diminished fifth
13/10 tridecimal semi-diminished fourth
13/11 tridecimal minor third
13/12 tridecimal 2/3-tone
14/9 septimal minor sixth
14/11 undecimal diminished fourth or major third
14/13 2/3-tone
15/7 septimal minor ninth, BP ninth
15/8 classic major seventh
15/11 undecimal augmented fourth
15/13 tridecimal 5/4-tone
15/14 major diatonic semitone
16/7 septimal major ninth
16/9 Pythagorean minor seventh
16/11 undecimal semi-diminished fifth
16/13 tridecimal neutral third
16/15 minor diatonic semitone
17/8 septendecimal minor ninth
17/9 septendecimal major seventh
17/10 septendecimal diminished seventh
17/12 2nd septendecimal tritone
17/14 supraminor third
17/15 septendecimal whole tone
17/16 17th harmonic
18/11 undecimal neutral sixth
18/13 tridecimal augmented fourth
18/17 Arabic lute index finger
19/10 undevicesimal major seventh
19/12 undevicesimal minor sixth
19/15 undevicesimal ditone
19/16 19th harmonic
19/17 quasi-meantone
19/18 undevicesimal semitone
20/9 small ninth
20/11 large minor seventh
20/13 tridecimal semi-augmented fifth
20/17 septendecimal augmented second
20/19 small undevicesimal semitone
21/11 undecimal major seventh
21/16 narrow fourth
21/17 submajor third
21/20 minor semitone
22/13 tridecimal major sixth
22/15 undecimal diminished fifth
22/21 undecimal minor semitone
23/12 vicesimotertial major seventh
23/16 23rd harmonic
23/18 vicesimotertial major third
24/13 tridecimal neutral seventh
24/17 1st septendecimal tritone
24/19 smaller undevicesimal major third
24/23 vicesimotertial minor semitone
25/9 classic augmented eleventh, BP twelfth
25/12 classic augmented octave
25/14 middle minor seventh
25/16 classic augmented fifth
25/18 classic augmented fourth
25/21 BP second, quasi-tempered minor third
25/22 undecimal acute whole tone
25/24 classic chromatic semitone, minor chroma
26/15 tridecimal semi-augmented sixth
26/25 tridecimal 1/3-tone
27/14 septimal major seventh
27/16 Pythagorean major sixth
27/17 septendecimal minor sixth
27/20 acute fourth
27/22 neutral third, Zalzal wosta of al-Farabi
27/23 vicesimotertial minor third
27/25 large limma, BP small semitone
27/26 tridecimal comma
28/15 grave major seventh
28/17 submajor sixth
28/25 middle second
28/27 Archytas' 1/3-tone
29/16 29th harmonic
30/17 septendecimal minor seventh
30/19 smaller undevicesimal minor sixth
31/16 31st harmonic
31/30 31st-partial chroma
32/15 minor ninth
32/17 17th subharmonic
32/19 19th subharmonic
32/21 wide fifth
32/23 23rd subharmonic
32/25 classic diminished fourth
32/27 Pythagorean minor third
32/29 29th subharmonic
32/31 Greek enharmonic 1/4-tone
33/25 2 pentatones
33/26 tridecimal major third
33/28 undecimal minor third
33/32 undecimal comma, al-Farabi's 1/4-tone
34/21 supraminor sixth
34/27 septendecimal major third
35/18 septimal semi-diminished octave
35/24 septimal semi-diminished fifth
35/27 9/4-tone, septimal semi-diminished fourth
35/32 septimal neutral second
35/34 septendecimal 1/4-tone
36/19 smaller undevicesimal major seventh
36/25 classic diminished fifth
36/35 septimal diesis, 1/4-tone
37/32 37th harmonic
39/32 39th harmonic, Zalzal wosta of Ibn Sina
40/21 acute major seventh
40/27 grave fifth
40/39 tridecimal minor diesis
41/29 quasi-tempered tritone
42/25 quasi-tempered major sixth
44/25 undecimal grave minor seventh
44/27 neutral sixth
45/32 diatonic tritone
45/44 1/5-tone
46/45 23rd-partial chroma
48/25 classic diminished octave
48/35 septimal semi-augmented fourth
49/25 BP eighth
49/30 larger approximation to neutral sixth
49/36 Arabic lute acute fourth
49/40 larger approximation to neutral third
49/45 BP minor semitone
49/48 slendro diesis, septimal 1/6-tone
50/27 grave major seventh
50/33 3 pentatones
50/49 Erlich's decatonic comma, tritonic diesis
51/50 17th-partial chroma
52/33 tridecimal minor sixth
54/35 septimal semi-augmented fifth
54/49 Zalzal's mujannab
55/36 undecimal semi-augmented fifth
55/48 undecimal semi-augmented whole tone
55/49 quasi-equal major second
56/55 undecimal diesis
57/56 Hendrix comma
60/49 smaller approximation to neutral third
63/25 quasi-equal major tenth, BP eleventh
63/32 octave - septimal comma
63/34 submajor seventh
63/40 narrow minor sixth
63/50 quasi-equal major third
64/33 33rd subharmonic
64/35 septimal neutral seventh
64/37 37th subharmonic
64/39 39th subharmonic
64/45 2nd tritone
64/49 2 septatones or septatonic major third
64/63 septimal comma, Archytas' comma
65/64 13th-partial chroma
68/35 23/4-tone
68/63 supraminor second
72/49 Arabic lute grave fifth
72/55 undecimal semi-diminished fourth
72/59 Ibn Sina's neutral third
74/73 approximation to Pythagorean comma
75/49 BP fifth
75/64 classic augmented second
77/76 approximation to 53-tone comma
80/49 smaller approximation to neutral sixth
80/63 wide major third
81/44 2nd undecimal neutral seventh
81/50 acute minor sixth
81/64 Pythagorean major third
81/68 Persian wosta
81/70 Al-Hwarizmi's lute middle finger
81/80 syntonic comma, Didymus comma
88/81 2nd undecimal neutral second
89/84 quasi-equal semitone
91/59 15/4-tone
91/90 medium tridecimal comma
96/95 19th-partial chroma
98/55 quasi-equal minor seventh
99/70 2nd quasi-equal tritone
99/98 small undecimal comma
100/63 quasi-equal minor sixth
100/81 grave major third
100/99 Ptolemy's comma
105/64 septimal neutral sixth
105/104 small tridecimal comma
121/120 undecimal seconds comma
125/64 classic augmented seventh, octave - minor diesis
125/72 classic augmented sixth
125/96 classic augmented third
125/108 semi-augmented whole tone
125/112 classic augmented semitone
126/125 small septimal comma, Starling comma
128/75 diminished seventh
128/81 Pythagorean minor sixth
128/105 septimal neutral third
128/121 undecimal semitone
128/125 minor diesis, diesis
131/90 13/4-tone
135/128 major chroma, major limma
140/99 quasi-equal tritone
144/125 classic diminished third
144/143 Grossma
145/144 29th-partial chroma
153/125 7/4-tone
153/152 Ganassi's comma
160/81 octave - syntonic comma
161/93 19/4-tone
162/149 Persian neutral second
168/89 quasi-equal major seventh
169/168 Schulter's comma
176/175 valinorsma
192/125 classic diminished sixth
196/195 mynucuma
216/125 semi-augmented sixth
225/128 augmented sixth
225/224 septimal kleisma
231/200 5/4-tone
241/221 Meshaqah's 3/4-tone
243/125 octave - maximal diesis
243/128 Pythagorean major seventh
243/160 acute fifth
243/200 acute minor third
243/224 Archytas' 2/3-tone
243/242 neutral third comma
245/243 minor BP diesis, Sensamagic comma
246/239 Meshaqah's 1/4-tone
248/243 tricesoprimal comma
250/153 17/4-tone
250/243 maximal diesis


http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/intervals.html
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Old 02-12-2016, 07:46 AM   #3
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Good info.

Maybe - just a suggestion, no offense intended - you should create a free Wordpress website and copy and paste all of that kinda midi stuff there and link to instead of copying and pasting hundreds of lines of text into multiple forums.

Then it would all be in one place, a good resource.

https://wordpress.com/create/
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:13 AM   #4
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Or maybe he should just stop littering the Internet with information anybody can Google.
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:52 AM   #5
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How do you get more then 12 keys per octave? Any idea if it would work with kontakt libs?
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Old 02-12-2016, 09:01 AM   #6
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It wouldn't.
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Old 02-12-2016, 09:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
How do you get more then 12 keys per octave? Any idea if it would work with kontakt libs?
That's easy you just make 1 octave cover less than "an octave".

Yes it's hard to understand from a western music theory viewpoint but then again that IS the whole point of micro-tonality, so whatever you learned with western music theory should probably be scrapped. I made some JS scripts for personal use so far for micro-tonality, and ability to load scala files... (via external tool that converts it to preset)

The way it works is it sends Pitchbend and notes on separate channels, rotating them as they are available (for polyphony). Most synths ignore the input channel, though, so you'll have to use separate instances in such cases...

But basically each incoming note is converted to a specific output note + pitchbend... the relationship has nothing to do with western octaves etc, it's arbitrary (defined by scl file)

(If I decide to release the script I'll have to polish it first )
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Old 02-12-2016, 09:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Or maybe he should just stop littering the Internet with information anybody can Google.
That's assuming they already know about it in the first place
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Old 02-12-2016, 09:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenz View Post
That's easy you just make 1 octave cover less than "an octave".

Yes it's hard to understand from a western music theory viewpoint but then again that IS the whole point of micro-tonality, so whatever you learned with western music theory should probably be scrapped. I made some JS scripts for personal use so far for micro-tonality, and ability to load scala files... (via external tool that converts it to preset)

The way it works is it sends Pitchbend and notes on separate channels, rotating them as they are available (for polyphony). Most synths ignore the input channel, though, so you'll have to use separate instances in such cases...

But basically each incoming note is converted to a specific output note + pitchbend... the relationship has nothing to do with western octaves etc, it's arbitrary (defined by scl file)

(If I decide to release the script I'll have to polish it first )

Please keep us posted
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenz View Post
That's easy you just make 1 octave cover less than "an octave".

Yes it's hard to understand from a western music theory viewpoint but then again that IS the whole point of micro-tonality, so whatever you learned with western music theory should probably be scrapped. I made some JS scripts for personal use so far for micro-tonality, and ability to load scala files... (via external tool that converts it to preset)

The way it works is it sends Pitchbend and notes on separate channels, rotating them as they are available (for polyphony). Most synths ignore the input channel, though, so you'll have to use separate instances in such cases...

But basically each incoming note is converted to a specific output note + pitchbend... the relationship has nothing to do with western octaves etc, it's arbitrary (defined by scl file)

(If I decide to release the script I'll have to polish it first )
I know about hindu octaves. Op said it is possible to do, so I asked. Being able to get for example 24 notes per octave would be perfect for the project I'm working on. But it's not possible so it's a shame. I looked at pitch cc lane, but the values are ridiculous there, something like -9k to 9k. But I'd ask how low and high the pitch bend goes? Is it one whole tone? I never thought about it before, just went by the ear.

Also, I really like hindu classical music. This is one of my favorite tracks. The lady has incredible voice https://youtu.be/McESaffC7lw
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:24 AM   #11
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so whatever you learned with western music theory should probably be scrapped
As primarily a guitarist, I've always been microtonal in a sense. Sure my guitar has frets and people bend half steps, whole steps, 1 1/2 steps etc. but I surely and purposely bend to a myriad of pitches that are outside the western scale. I can't make chords that do that per se but I'd immediately feel limited if I could not bend notes to all these in between pitches.
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:29 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
As primarily a guitarist, I've always been microtonal in a sense. Sure my guitar has frets and people bend half steps, whole steps, 1 1/2 steps etc. but I surely and purposely bend to a myriad of pitches that are outside the western scale. I can't make chords that do that per se but I'd immediately feel limited if I could not bend notes to all these in between pitches.
Yeah man. I transitioned primarily to kb, but I miss that freedom that guitar gives.
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
As primarily a guitarist, I've always been microtonal in a sense. Sure my guitar has frets and people bend half steps, whole steps, 1 1/2 steps etc. but I surely and purposely bend to a myriad of pitches that are outside the western scale. I can't make chords that do that per se but I'd immediately feel limited if I could not bend notes to all these in between pitches.
that is why guitar-sample-libraries and the music with that always make me think: oh, no! that is soooo wrong!

guitarists are complex microtonal personalities.
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
How do you get more then 12 keys per octave? Any idea if it would work with kontakt libs?
Kontakt comes with tuning scripts that do quarter tone, etc.

To do really far-out scales, adaptive just intonation, non-octave scales, etc., check out alt-tuner, works with almost all VSTi's, not just Kontakt:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=alt-tuner

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=alt-tuner
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:36 PM   #15
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I looked at pitch cc lane, but the values are ridiculous there, something like -9k to 9k. But I'd ask how low and high the pitch bend goes? Is it one whole tone? I never thought about it before, just went by the ear.
The pitch bend range is usually 2 semitones, but can be set to a fifth, and octave, whatever. You set it on the synth, if the synth lets you. For quarter-tone, you could possibly set it to a half-semitone, and then set the pitch bend to the max or the min in the midi editor, to manually retune your midi. To work polyphonically, you'd need to manually set the midi channels so that each note is on its own channel, as pitch bend affects the whole channel, not just one note. That would be doable but really tedious, much easier to use retuning software.
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:42 AM   #16
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For those who are interested.. This PDFs is awesome

http://www.tallkite.com/misc_files/a...and_primer.pdf
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Old 02-14-2016, 11:38 AM   #17
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I've found this: http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php...oTuner&id=1430
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Old 02-14-2016, 11:57 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
I remember that plugin! Forgot all about that. Kite, does alt tuner do other stuff that this plugin won't?
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
I know about hindu octaves. Op said it is possible to do, so I asked. Being able to get for example 24 notes per octave would be perfect for the project I'm working on. But it's not possible so it's a shame. I looked at pitch cc lane, but the values are ridiculous there, something like -9k to 9k. But I'd ask how low and high the pitch bend goes? Is it one whole tone? I never thought about it before, just went by the ear.

Also, I really like hindu classical music. This is one of my favorite tracks. The lady has incredible voice https://youtu.be/McESaffC7lw
A little correction: while it's easy to confuse Hindi and Hindu, that style of music is actually called Indian classical music and yes, it's beautiful isn't it?

Another common misconception is that Indian classical music is microtonal - it's not. They use the same 12-tone scale as western music. It's just that they have 72 "basic" scales (not to mention the hundreds of derivative scales) and sound exotic because we're not used to hearing those scales in western music.
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:59 PM   #20
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Now onto microtonal music in reaper: that link says nothing on how to achieve microtuning in reaper. I thought this is something that had to be built in to the synths in addition to the daw supporting it and seeing as we have none how is this possible again? Using retrologue vst3 or some such?
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:40 PM   #21
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I remember that plugin! Forgot all about that. Kite, does alt tuner do other stuff that this plugin won't?
Yes, alt-tuner does on-the-fly retuning as you play, which is the only way to make just intonation work for a song with more than 2 or 3 chords. You can even do comma pumps.

It can also retune Kontakt, the xen-arts synths, and the high-end Rolands much more easily using keyswitches and sysexes, rather than the multi-channel method.

Also, it's just all around easier to use. Modulating is really easy. EDOs are easier too.

Instead of loading a scala file, you move sliders. You can tune more by ear and less by math.
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Old 02-14-2016, 08:09 PM   #22
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Now onto microtonal music in reaper: that link says nothing on how to achieve microtuning in reaper. I thought this is something that had to be built in to the synths in addition to the daw supporting it and seeing as we have none how is this possible again? Using retrologue vst3 or some such?
Almost all synths can be retuned polyphonically even if they aren't intended to be retuned. Vst vs. vst3 doesn't really matter. All that's required for a softsynth is that it respond to midi pitch bend messages without delay (i.e. without "scooping"). For "hardsynths", i.e. workstations, it must also be multitimbral, and you must also be able to turn off local control. Other than the Nords, which are mostly bi-timbral, you can retune all but the cheapest keyboards (the kind with built-in speakers and a slot for batteries).

As for the DAW, the main requirement is that it not overwrite the midi channel information like Ableton Live does. So most DAWs work well. Reaper works great.

The usual method is to use multi-channel pitch bends:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=17

There are easier methods, but they only work for certain synths: Kontakt, PianoTeq, the xen-arts synths, high-end Rolands, and perhaps others.
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Old 02-14-2016, 11:44 PM   #23
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Any idea if it would work with kontakt libs?
It wouldn't.
Is Kontakt scripting unable to use polyphonic aftertouch from Midi Input Midi as pitch bend ?

(Of course closed source script Kontakt libraries and Kontakt player users are out of question here.)

Modifying an existing Kontakt Library to more than 12 steps per octave seems less viable.

-Michael
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Old 02-15-2016, 12:19 AM   #24
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Is Kontakt scripting unable to use polyphonic aftertouch from Midi Input Midi as pitch bend ?

(Of course closed source script Kontakt libraries and Kontakt player users are out of question here.)
This shouldn't be too hard to script. But I find using aftertouch, either poly or mono, to retune is tricky. The main problem is it's hard to separate from the velocity = volume. In other words, it's hard to play loud with no aftertouch, and it's hard to play soft with aftertouch, unless the aftertouch is rather late.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:09 AM   #25
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Rather obviously using aftertouch for live playing Microtonal tunes is hard to do.

My message was just about how (maybe) enable Kontakt instruments to play (polyphonic) Microtonal tunes. I have no idea what kind of controller might be appropriate to play Microtonal tunes live, and what Midi messages are sent by those. Maybe this is "compressed octaves" format.

Now you can rather easily do a Reaper JSFX that (e.g.) converts "compressed octaves" Midi format to standard Midi (Note on/off) with polyphonic aftertouch for Microtone variation to allow using (rather) standard Kontakt instruments as sound sources.

(Reaper rocks )

-Michael
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:18 AM   #26
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alt-tuner: a microtonal midi plug-in
www.TallKite.com/alt-tuner.html
Reading this I see:

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While alt-tuner can't retune your instrument directly...
Reaper can easily modify the pitch in a rcorded track without too much harm to timing or sound (see ReaTune). So providing micro-retuning of monophonic material should be not too difficult. Supposedly you could even use a Reaper API for this instead of doing the audio-processing in a third party tool.

Melodyne can do this for polyphonic material, as well.

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Old 02-15-2016, 10:53 AM   #27
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Or maybe he should just stop littering the Internet with information anybody can Google.
Any Google search must be designed, varied, fixed, reviewed, scanned, evaluated, selected, housecleaned, triple-checked, edited, ordered, and put into some useful presentation. Thanks for memyselfandus for doing all that for me, myself and us.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:36 AM   #28
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The multi channel method looks to be interesting. So the plugin gets omni input and responds to various midi notes with varying pitch bends, all distributed automatically by some plugin? I'd like to see this in action.

Another way of achieving said effect is to use melodyne :P I hear the latest version can do just tuning in polyphonic mode.
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Old 02-15-2016, 01:54 PM   #29
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alt-tuner: a microtonal midi plug-in
www.TallKite.com/alt-tuner.html
Do know know this book:

-> http://www.amazon.de/Pythagoras-Quin...ds=quintenwolf

I suppose it's only availle in German.

Here the mathematical background for multiple (micro-tonal) - mostly historical - Temperatures is discussed in depth.

-Michael
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Old 02-27-2016, 08:59 AM   #30
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Looks like a cool book!
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Old 02-27-2016, 10:26 AM   #31
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I have a book called "Middle East: your passport to a new world of music" by Jeff Peretz. Published by Alfred in a "Guitar Atlas" series.

Here is a relevant passage from the appendix:

Quote:
As if it's not difficult enough dividing an octave into at least twice as many parts, it's done differently depending on where one is in the Middle East. Historically speaking, there are two mathematical systems which have evolved into the two main systems in use today. One is the Greek system, based on the calculations of Safi ad-Din al-Urmawi in the 13th century, which is the basis for the Turkish and Persian systems today. The other is the Arabian system described by al-Farabi in the 10th century in his book 'Kitab al-Musiqa' (The Book of Music). These calculations are not unlike the Pythagorean system that was crucial to the development of Western music, the main difference being that the ancient tone systems are all relative. There is still no fixed pitch as has ultimately developed in Western music (in the late 17th century), where the pitch A always equals 440 cycles per second.

The common and most effective way of explaining and comparing tonal systems is to use units of measure called cents (see Hermann von Helmholtz's 'On the Sensations of Tone', 1863) to describe intervals. An octave is 1200 cents. The distance of one half step is 100 cents. Less than 100 is something smaller than a half step. In the West, all intervals are even; the distances between all notes one half step apart are equal and divisible by half steps. The intervals in the Middle Eastern Systems are not necessarily even.

... Much like the maqam system of Rast, Persian classical music is all based on the Radif, which is the repertory of art music comprised of over 300 'tunes' know as gusheha (plural of gusheh), based on the 12 modes of the Dhastgah. The Dhastgaha (plural of Dhastgah) are the Persian equivalent of the Arabic or Turkish maqam/makkam. The 12 modes of the Dhastgah are divided into two groups, seven basic and five derivative. Here they are [chart below] built on C. Like the Rast system, there are half flats and half sharps used to create the modes. The tanbur has movable frets in order to accomodate the 'in-between notes,' the tar has 25 frets, each a quarter step apart.
Earlier in the book [page 10], the author writes, more generally,

Quote:
In its simplest definition, 'maqamaat' (plural of maqam) are melodic modes. but in reality the maqam phenomenon encompasses much more than just a sequence of tones. It is an elusive, complex system for melodic improvisation that is subject to many different conditions. The music of the dry world, both sacred and secular, is characterized by these melodic modes and by melodic improvisation. It is an aurally transmitted art form which has been handed down from generation to generation ...

Maqamaat are based on three-, four- and five-note 'tetrachords' known as 'hjins' that are extracted from the Arabic 24-note or Turkish 25-note systems. Each jin is a series of major, minor, medium or augmented 2nds. Much like triads are three-note extractions of Western scales and therefore building blocks of Western harmony, jins can be considered the building blocks of maqamaat.

... There are seven main maqamaat families (fasila). the jins not only give the families their names, but also their melodic colors, as they dictate the final cadence (ending) sequence. Each cadence sequence is based on the series of descending 2nds (minor, major, medium or augmented) leading to the tonic tone. A medium 2nd is a microtonal interval that is greater than a minor 2nd but less than a major 2nd. Each region has a different way of calculating the size, and even then, each individual player has a unique way of expressing microtones. Some are very strict (Persian classical) while others very loose (Turkish Gypsies or Bedouin).
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Old 02-27-2016, 10:36 AM   #32
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http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/DAWs

Reaper seems to be one of the best at microtonal options.. so far.. as well. The amount of customization in Reaper really pays off for many situations.

Reaper
Extremely flexible midi and audio routing. No built-in softsynths except ReaSynth. No problems with sysexes or multiple midi channels.

The QWERTY keyboard can be used as a midi keyboard, like most DAWs. But in Reaper, you can assign any midi note to any key. So you aren't stuck with 7 white & 5 black keys. Here's how: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/8772/reaper-vkbmap.txt

...
Would it make sense to employ (map) the computer keyboard as an input instrument for microtonal melodies? The offset postitioning between rows of keys seems ideal for suggesting and representing PARTIAL intervals. Doing something like that would require expertise and some standardization, but could yield a keyboard-as-instrument that could be very exrpressive.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:22 AM   #33
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http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...-Maalouf-.aspx

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Throughout his vibrant music career, Maalouf has embarked on avid collaborations, including performances with world-famous musician and actor Sting, French rock musician Matthieu Chedid, and Lebanese singer, composer and oud player Marcel Khalife.

He uses an extraordinary trumpet contrived by his father, famous trumpeter Nassim Maalouf. The trumpet includes an additional fourth valve and hence enables Maalouf to play the quarter-tones of Arabic music.

Programme:
8pm, Saturday 19 March
Sound and Light Theatre, Giza pyramids
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Old 03-01-2016, 02:08 PM   #34
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Would it make sense to employ (map) the computer keyboard as an input instrument for microtonal melodies? The offset postitioning between rows of keys seems ideal for suggesting and representing PARTIAL intervals. Doing something like that would require expertise and some standardization, but could yield a keyboard-as-instrument that could be very exrpressive.
Unfortunately not very expressive because you wouldn't have any velocity sensitivity, so no volume control. But good for exploring scales with more than 12 notes per octave and non-standard keyboard layouts.

You can also take apart a standard midi controller and reassemble it with different # of black & white keys. I'm told it's not too hard. Photos here:

http://www.meetup.com/Portland-Micro...otos/26646416/
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:22 AM   #35
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Fun!!
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:47 PM   #36
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Very interesting!
Thank you memyselfandus
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:28 AM   #37
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OMG )) (looking at that most exhausting interval list Just a modest thought - isn't it so much easier, quicker and most natural just to simply play it on the instrument as needed ?
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