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Old 03-19-2013, 12:49 PM   #1
LETO
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Default Why do WAVs turn into mono?

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed before, but somehow I never found this issue answered on this forum..

I recently enabled NinJam to "save uncompressed .wav files too" and although all my tracks were set to stereo (1/2, 3/4 etc.) on importing the clipsort file, all of this had turned into mono samples. The only way to work around this seems to have two mono channels for each and every stereo track and then pan everything after importing. This however takes double the bandwidth (plus it's pretty annoying) so I figured this can't be right.. I see no reason why it should be done this way.

Is it only me.. or..?
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:46 PM   #2
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The only time I've seen mono tracks is when a participant in a jam is transmitting in mono. Everything else I load up from clipsort.log in Reaper comes in as stereo, as expected.

Note that sending one channel in mono should not take more bandwidth than sending two channels in stereo - except the compression might not be quite as good, I suppose. What you want to avoid is having two stereo channels, one for Left and one for Right, which I've seen people doing (although, again, the compression might make it so there's not much difference).

OK, so the setup... just to check...

Assuming you're using audio in, you'll have a stereo pair on your sound card. You need a track in Reaper set to "Input: Stereo" then that stereo pair. Clicking the I/O button on the track should have "Master/Parent Send" ticked, "Track Channels" set to 2 (which are the defaults).

(VSTi just uses whatever MIDI In in place of the "Input: Stereo", the rest should be the same.)

You'll then have ReaNINJAM on the Master FX with a single "Local Channel" set to "Stereo 1/2", "Normal NINJAM" etc.

If you're doing that... I've no idea what else it could be..!
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:57 PM   #3
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Hi pljones and thanks for the quick feedback.

I'm certain my setup is correct.. As an experiment I tried to keep it as simple as possible: Ninjam on master, with 2 track channels. One track for incoming stereo signal with the master/parent send box ticked, rec and monitoring on. Ninjam: "2/8 in 2 out" and on the console one stereo track: "Stereo 1/2", switched to xmit.
Then I went File/Preferences and ticked both boxes, saving multitrack recordings AND uncompressed WAV files.

In this experiment I chose to connect to my own server, nobody on the other side.. (would that make a difference?)
I make a connection, make some noise that clearly shows stereo signal on all the meters that are in use. Check. Ok, after a couple measures I disconnect and import the clipsort file, without merging. What I see and what I hear is all mono, and as I check each file's properties they show up as single channel samples. This is comfirmed when I try to open them in an external editor. No doubt, these are mono files.

In the same setup, without the "also save WAV.." box ticked, I end up with ogg files in perfect stereo. Seems to me the setup can't be the problem, right?
I would also like to refer to an earlier post by Krillo who is describing the same "phenomenon":
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...highlight=mono

Thanks!
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:03 PM   #4
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Ah... right, I never bother with the "Save as WAV", just keep the OGGs (as that's what's flying over the wire anyway). That sounds like it could be the issue, then: not something I'd have thought of!

I wonder if it's an issue with what's written to clipsort.log? Can you compare the two? (Specifically the header line...) Could also be worth a bug report...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
I would also like to refer to an earlier post by Krillo who is describing the same "phenomenon":
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...highlight=mono
Ah! That's what that was all about!
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...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.

Last edited by pljones; 03-20-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:21 PM   #5
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Hmm.. well I'm not sure about how Reaper reads these files but I figure that if there's an ogg AND a wav with the same name, it takes the latter one, correct?
The header line.. there's no specific header, it just starts with "interval 1 120.00 16", same for all the blocks. Nothing about mono or stereo.

Is this helpful?

Actually I'm really impressed by the sound quality of the minuscule oggs.. I just wanted to find out if having the original wavs significantly improves the sound of a final mix. Speaking of that: is it better (for ogg sound quality) to have volumes as high as possible (not clipping of course) or keeping it down, like halfway?
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #6
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.. Just sent the bug report. Really hope this will be solved because I think there's a lot of potential to this option. I consider myself a recording freak, taking pleasure in bringing back those moments of collaboration where you see the entire process (or story) of creation passing by again, and I would be surprised if I'd be the only one. I collect them like treasures, or "jam-gems".. meaning in the highest quality possible.

I don't think there is a problem in having a final mix that sounds better than when you were in a session, don't you agree?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
Hmm.. well I'm not sure about how Reaper reads these files but I figure that if there's an ogg AND a wav with the same name, it takes the latter one, correct?
Don't know, I'm afraid: like I say, I've only really used the OGGs.
Quote:
The header line.. there's no specific header, it just starts with "interval 1 120.00 16", same for all the blocks. Nothing about mono or stereo.

Is this helpful?
Nope, doesn't seem to be but thanks for satisfying my curiosity. I'd just wondered if there was some strange "MONO PAIR" flag being written to the WAV ones.

Quote:
Speaking of that: is it better (for ogg sound quality) to have volumes as high as possible (not clipping of course) or keeping it down, like halfway?
Another "I don't know", sorry. Maybe http://www.vorbis.com/ has more info?

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Originally Posted by LETO View Post
.. Just sent the bug report. Really hope this will be solved because I think there's a lot of potential to this option.
Yeah, I hope it gets fixed, not least because of the confusion!

Quote:
I don't think there is a problem in having a final mix that sounds better than when you were in a session, don't you agree?
Totally and I do the same (http://peter.drealm.info/jamming).
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pljones View Post
Nope, doesn't seem to be but thanks for satisfying my curiosity. I'd just wondered if there was some strange "MONO PAIR" flag being written to the WAV ones.
Just for clarity's sake: One stereo channel in ninjam turns into one mono WAV.. Not sure if left/right information is in fact merged or if it takes only the left or the right channel. Need to check that..

Quote:
Originally Posted by pljones View Post
Totally and I do the same (http://peter.drealm.info/jamming).
Ahh.. good to hear I'm in good company! I still remember the good old early 2000s when data transmission was still a novelty and everybody including myself started "online bands" with sea miles between them. Same kind of magic happening with Ninjam. Nice work btw! Is that Addictive Drums I hear?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
Just for clarity's sake: One stereo channel in ninjam turns into one mono WAV.. Not sure if left/right information is in fact merged or if it takes only the left or the right channel. Need to check that..
I just thought (well, on the bus home...) - is it after you load the clipsort.log you see mono or have you checked the files on disk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
I still remember the good old early 2000s when data transmission was still a novelty
Hah! Online was old hat to me by then . I've been online (running a dial-up BBS; using dial-up IP; finally getting ADSL the moment it was available) since the 1985 (and ouch the phone bills) . But yeah, no one really noticed until 2000 or so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
and everybody including myself started "online bands" with sea miles between them. Same kind of magic happening with Ninjam.
I didn't really get back into playing music properly until I found NINJAM -- I'd played clarinet at school (two "gigs" at the Royal Albert Hall, no less... not that I was any good but the London schools did it every once in a while and I got lucky twice). After school, I stopped. I took got an acoustic kit and took drum lessons briefly, playing for my stepson and his mates once or twice. Too @@@@ing loud... I'd always played with computer sounds but nothing serious, ever since my BBC Micro days (late 1980s), even demo-ing a MIDI keyboard -- several months' salary... I did buy the synth, which was cheaper and sounded nice... and then never really did anything with it except sell it! I got into MIDI and soundfonts on Linux around 2000... gave up and moved to Windows around 2003 (the same "issues" with Linux sound still exist and are not technical, really: too few people, not working together...). Worked with René on getting sfz format 1.0 satisfactory - except he wouldn't get my hi-hat muting working properly. Ever. Sforzando does .
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Originally Posted by LETO View Post
Nice work btw! Is that Addictive Drums I hear?
I listened to Addictive Drums once - okay, only the freebie demo - but it sounded very shallow. Learning point: if you're going to produce a demo, make it something that sells the product...

It's mostly Natural Studios ns_kit7 (now Natural Drum Kit; possibly still available) Rock Kit, snares on with sticks. (Yes, there's a lot of alternative samples filling what was a five DVD set.) I also use Analogue Drums RockStock from their Tape Series 1, although it's very limited, particularly the hi-hat, in comparison. Add on to that Native Instruments Abbey Road Late 60s Drummer. Occasionally you'll hear Analogue Drums Gorilla kit from their Tape Series 2, which has a much better hi-hat (I just don't particularly like the kit). Other bits of Tape Series 2 will, hopefully, start appearing over time...

I just posted my current set up over on the ninbot forum so won't repeat it all here.

(By the way, I'm picky about how a sampled hi-hat behaves...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.

Last edited by pljones; 03-21-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:50 PM   #10
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"....running a dial-up BBS"

I miss those old local BBS's at times....SO much more "personal" than web sites & forums at times...

And it's nice to see someone else using the full Natural Studios ns_kit7, those DVD's are loaded! But I disagree about Addictive Drums, to us they are so much better than EZDrummer and all the other "must have" ones.

MT Power Drums 2 and the Drummix Rock kits sound very useful for certain styles, and the price is right on those...

Sorry for the hy-jack....
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:06 AM   #11
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Thanks guys, I feel so much younger again! (:
True, I tuned in when modems were about to stop playing their squeaky symphony before opening up the Gates to The World..

So far I only tried EZ/SuperiorDrummer before getting Addicted.. I didn't find them so superior at all.. so hard to get them to sound natural, plus it's an elephant! ADD loads in seconds, and making adjustments is a breeze. Specially like the jazz brush/sticks kit, and those Blue Oyster toms from the Retro kit with that deep thundery sound, finish it with some snare buzz.. oh yeah..
I'll certainly check out the Natural Studios. 'Natural' sounds good to my ears.. thanks!
Better hi-hat performance, that is something on my wishlist.. ADD doesn't support full continuous control, its range is divided into 5 steps and the open/close action AFTER hitting the hat doesn't affect the sound like it does in "real life". Can the NS kit do this?
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pljones View Post
is it after you load the clipsort.log you see mono or have you checked the files on disk?
yeah ok, back to the topic:
-Both.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
Can the NS kit do this?
It's not perfect but there are 16 steps on the main hi-hat (4.40 GB of samples). I also like my "open" to be wide open: I mean, on a real kit I can set my hi-hat to do that, why not on a sampled kit? On too many kits, "open" is still all jangly-cymbal-to-cymbal noise. I believe you need at least six degrees of openness (plus pedal and splash) - plus a good mapping. (Kontakt doesn't seem to be able to do the mapping I've managed in Sforzando for the Analogue Drums Tape Series Two hi-hats... but I can't stand the Kontakt UI so I may just be giving up too quickly.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
yeah ok, back to the topic:
-Both.
Oh well. Weird... I think that's all I can say on it at this point!
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Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:37 AM   #14
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Thanks for solving a problem I had.
I ticked the "save as wavs" box and my session came out in mono.

Will untick that confounded box now.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LETO View Post
I would also like to refer to an earlier post by Krillo who is describing the same "phenomenon":
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...highlight=mono
Quote:
Originally Posted by pljones View Post
Ah! That's what that was all about!
Indeed so

Last edited by Krillo; 08-19-2016 at 11:28 PM.
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