A minor or C major?

[for]

how do you know if a song is in C major or A minor?

is it the chord it starts with usually the clue? whats called the tonic? (home chord?)

is this the only clue?

[whiteaxxxe]

that depends.

good answer, hm? :-))

so, it depends at first on your feel. do you feel, that the chord C major is the root chord of the whole thing? then its almost for sure C major.

a hint that it can be a minor could be the same: do you feel a minor chord is the root?

is the melody more "normal" or more sad, dark, down? in the latter case its most likely a minor.

if you put up an intstrument and improvise some melodies to the song, so that it sounds right, playing an additional voice to it, what is the root key? in what key does your playing just sound right?

addtitionally: if in melodies or chords the note #g appears, mostly before the a minor chord comes up, its a minor.

if the felt 5th chord is g major something, its c major, if the felt 5th is e major something it is a minor.

felt 5th means: does the end of a melody sometimes fall on the g major or e major?

so this is general guessing, except the #g thing.

there are genres, where this all doesnt apply: tekkno/house and blues. in this cases it comes down to: what is the felt root?

if nothing gets you to a result: choose by yourself what you call it. regarding the #s and bs its no difference.

[Kundalinguist]

[EDIT NOTE: In retrospect, this answer is one I mistakenly gave in believing that the question was about Am versus Cm. As with all things in life, I blame various external evil forces for all of my personal mistakes, including when I run out of deodorant or fail to read the OP's post accurately. Viewer discretion is advised in reading my reply below]:

If it's Am, then you will not likely hear a D# in there unless they're going for an overt diminished sound in the song (Randy Rhoads?).

Subsequently, you can bank on Cm. Or, a very out of tune instrument.

[Reno.thestraws]

Originally Posted by for

how do you know if a song is in C major or A minor?

is it the chord it starts with usually the clue? whats called the tonic? (home chord?)

is this the only clue?

In 99% of the case, in pop music it's the chord that end the song.

And in 90% of the case, in pop or average music, it's a minor key

And if you're not the composer, the song could be in c maj or in a minor, it changes nothing for you, the notes are the same

[whiteaxxxe]

Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws

In 99% of the case, in pop music it's the chord that end the song.

And in 90% of the case, in pop or average music, it's a minor key

And if you're not the composer, the song could be in c maj or in a minor, it changes nothing for you, the notes are the same

that is all 3 not true. :-))

the ending is most of the times faded out, so not listenable. and if so, in many, many cases its not the root.

and the notes of c major and a minor (any major key and its corresponding minor key) are not the same. they are only the same if the most simple form of minor is used, what in real minor cases it is not. there is melodic minor and harmonic minor. its in a minor different from c major and different depending on in what direction the melody runs.

most likely a key is determined by listening to what is root and to what is 5th.

another thing is: you have the notes of c major, but the root note is d, and the root chord is d minor. or e, or f, or whatever. now you are in modes land.

and to country music: that is most of the times neither minor nor major in a halfway clear form, its a mix up of major, minor, blues scales and some diatonic notes. in other words: you never know, there can be all of the 12 notes in it. same goes for jazz and metal.

and if you have a song of the Beatles ... well ... you are screwed. most of the times with them. lots and lots of key changings.

in the end it comes down to what you define what it is. rule of thumb is: its the key with the least bs and #s. because the key is coded into that. so only for written music of interest. what you call it ... it depends. :-)

[G-Sun]

Check the last note of the song.
If it's a, then it's a-minor
if it's c then it's c-major

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by Kundalinguist

If it's Am, then you will not likely hear a D# in there unless they're going for an overt diminished sound in the song (Randy Rhoads?).

Subsequently, you can bank on Cm. Or, a very out of tune instrument.

If it's C major, you probably aren't going to hear D# in there, either.

[msore]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

If it's C major, you probably aren't going to hear D# in there, either.

Unless you play the Vth as a G7#5. Or something that is 'anti-key' like that.

My larger point being that as a song gets more and more real or interesting, the basic rules tend to fail to apply.

Here is a funny question I asked myself upon reading the original post - could I compose a song that modulated between C major and A minor? Well. I have to go try it. See y'all later.

[ivansc]

Since we are talking relative minors here, its all er relative, I guess.

This kind of stuff is something I was apparently born "just knowing" or rather just being able to hear. I feel sorry for anyone who doesnt get this naturally, same as I feel sorry for people who dont naturally "hear" harmonies and harmonic structure.

Unfortunately trying to explain this in terms that can be understood by someone who doesnt already get it is pretty near impossible. You have to learn what vcarious chord progressions sound like and then use that knowledge to feel your way around to decide on keys.
Or only play written music.

With a certain amount of basic music theory you can make your guesses much more educated though, so dont lose heart.
If by any chance you are a guitar player it is perhaps easier to learn the various chord SHAPES and apply them up and down the fretboard till you can see how they inter-relate. This can be a huge help in deciding on a key signature.
Bear in mind there are only three basic chord shapes on the guitar. All the rest are variation son those three.
C A and E (Yes I know first position G is different but just bung it up to second position and...)

[msore]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Since we are talking relative minors here, its all er relative, I guess.

Yah. Couldn't resist suggesting that telling a Cmajor from an Aminor is about the same level of difficulty (or simplicity) as trying to decide whether an American politician is a Demo or a Repub.

[whiteaxxxe]

Originally Posted by msore

Here is a funny question I asked myself upon reading the original post - could I compose a song that modulated between C major and A minor? Well. I have to go try it. See y'all later.

yes, you can. at least I could, I did it. it modulates between C major and A minor harmonic. means in Aminor it has all the diminished chords (B dim and G# dim) whereas these in the C major parts arent there, naturally. except for the theoretically B dim ... that is not used in the C major parts but substituted with a G7. what makes an very interesting contrast if you use for modulation a G7 - G# dim progression that leads to A minor. on a guitar you have the notes g - g# - a as chromatic upgoing voice in the diskant.

so we can elaborate some of that really weird stuff further on here? :-))) nerds talking chord progressions? :-))

[Strange Ways]

Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe

yes, you can. at least I could, I did it. it modulates between C major and A minor harmonic. means in Aminor it has all the diminished chords (B dim and G# dim) whereas these in the C major parts arent there, naturally. except for the theoretically B dim ... that is not used in the C major parts but substituted with a G7. what makes an very interesting contrast if you use for modulation a G7 - G# dim progression that leads to A minor. on a guitar you have the notes g - g# - a as chromatic upgoing voice in the diskant.

so we can elaborate some of that really weird stuff further on here? :-))) nerds talking chord progressions? :-))

That is a great example, Paul McCartney-ish in a way. Play a C major chord for two beats, followed by an E7 (there's that G# in there) for two beats, and right into the Am chord. That harmonic minor gives a nice little twist. Of course, guys like Yngwie practically live there, which is cool too.

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by msore

Unless you play the Vth as a G7#5. Or something that is 'anti-key' like that.

Playing a V7 chord is a deviation out of key, which is the entire point of "key" in the first place. So yes, you aren't in key if you play a dominant 7. Play the major 7 and you are.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

Playing a V7 chord is a deviation out of key, which is the entire point of "key" in the first place. So yes, you aren't in key if you play a dominant 7.

Not so. A dominant seventh occurs naturally in the seventh chord built upon the dominant (V) of a major diatonic scale.

[the all new rob]

Cadence is the music theory term that refers to a harmonic progression that gives a sense of closure or finality. Cadence also strongly establishes the sense of what key a song is in.

The strongest cadence in our system is the progression from the V chord to the I chord, or dominant-tonic. Known to classical theory as authentic cadence.

The names aren't important. Here's the lifehack:

If your song ends with G7 C, it is very likely in C major.
If your song ends with E7 Am, it is very likely in A minor.

When I say "ends with" you can ignore vamping out to fade etc, it's the end of the repeating part that probably counts.

Plenty of songs don't exist in a single key throughout by the way. They can modulate, which makes music a lot more interesting.

[msore]

Originally Posted by the all new rob

Plenty of songs don't exist in a single key throughout by the way. They can modulate, which makes music a lot more interesting.

there!

[karbomusic]

Plenty of songs don't exist in a single key throughout by the way. They can modulate, which makes music a lot more interesting.

Please for the love of god, modulate once in awhile. Many songs modulate for as short as a single chord that is played just once. One of the greatest gifts of music is surprise, expectation and reward. It can be done very blatantly or sneakily....

C - F - C - F - C - F - Fm - C - G

There is no Ab in the key of C but the above sounds wonderful in the context of C.

And for those who love to call the last chord as the key, be careful... That only works for those which resolve to the tonic which I tend to not do all the time. It's better to learn several of the chords the work out the key center (if there is one) from those. What key is the theme from Gilligan's Island in?

[ivansc]

See my comment on the other anal "what is it" thread.

You could be devoting all this energy to MAKING music instead of trying to describe it.
I am sure there is an equivalent to that old saw about talking about art....

[karbomusic]

You could be devoting all this energy to MAKING music instead of trying to describe it.

Yup.. I think each person has to find their own way. I also think however, that it's good to rip them apart and put them back together from time to time, then forget about them again. It's good stuff to have floating around in the background of the mind with the emphasis on background.

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by Fex

Not so. A dominant seventh occurs naturally in the seventh chord built upon the dominant (V) of a major diatonic scale.

So it does. Therefore, in key.

[ReaperMadness]

To the OP:

So there, now you know.

[ivansc]

Wish I hadnt been drinking a cup of tea when I saw the above

[Kundalinguist]

"D#"—what was I thinking? I just reread the thing. I was commenting on Cm. Diminished Dimentia, I guess.

I retract my previous post. I now realize that I must return to the academy to fully master the C major and A minor scales. But after that…world domination.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

So it does. Therefore, in key.

how are people not understanding what you are saying lol...

anyway,

do you mean A harmonic minor key? with the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G# ????

those chords are Am, Bhalfdim, Caug, Dm, E7, F, Ghalfdim or dim (could be wrong... forgot)



consider pot stirred

[ReaperMadness]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Wish I hadnt been drinking a cup of tea when I saw the above

'Poor kid. (not you, Ivan... you're no kid.)

He's probably invented some new Mixophrygian Modal Dimentialicious scale by now.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

out of key

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

Therefore, in key.

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

how are people not understanding what you are saying lol...

I don't care anymore....

[ReaperMadness]

I don't care anymore....

Neither does Phil.

[Kundalinguist]

BOTTOM LINE: There is no problem herein named that cannot be solved with a good distortion pedal.

Okay, lock the thread, before someone disagrees with me.

[ReaperMadness]

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

how are people not understanding what you are saying lol...

anyway,

do you mean A harmonic minor key? with the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G# ????

those chords are Am, Bhalfdim, Caug, Dm, E7, F, Ghalfdim or dim (could be wrong... forgot)



consider pot stirred

No. A natural minor. A B C D E F G. Harmonic minor (which is a scale, not a key) aren't truly in key with their relative majors. They just sound good. That raised 7th provides a groovy little leading tone.

[Jae.Thomas]

was thinking something like this:

https://www.basicmusictheory.com/a-h...-key-signature

something I see alot in bossa/gypsy/jobim type arrangments