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Old 02-04-2016, 02:29 PM   #1
vanhaze
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Default Loudness comparison , is this possible in Reaper ?

Check this vid out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3MvshipsN4

Is this (exactly) possible in Reaper somehow, without the need to buy this fairly expensive Perception plugin ?
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:51 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
Check this vid out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3MvshipsN4

Is this (exactly) possible in Reaper somehow, without the need to buy this fairly expensive Perception plugin ?
Heh heh, I'm not sure what to think. I didn't watch the whole thing, but what's the difference in using a plugin, or Reaper's faders to adjust the levels of reference material to match your own project?
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:52 PM   #3
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Default Level Matching (like Perception)

http://www.learndigitalaudio.com/ab-...-free-plug-ins
Works in other daws too. Not quite as sexy looking as Perception but free...
AB Level Matching Control JSFX 2.0 plug-in
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donchilcott View Post
http://www.learndigitalaudio.com/ab-...-free-plug-ins
Works in other daws too. Not quite as sexy looking as Perception but free...
AB Level Matching Control JSFX 2.0 plug-in
Interesting, thanks for this tip !
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Heh heh, I'm not sure what to think. I didn't watch the whole thing, but what's the difference in using a plugin, or Reaper's faders to adjust the levels of reference material to match your own project?
If there was no difference, the existence of Perception plugin would be a waste of time.
Now, to be honest, i don't think this is true, certainly not if it's Ian S that is using it ..

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
If there was no difference, the existence of Perception plugin would be a waste of time.
Now, to be honest, i don't think this is true, certainly not if it's Ian S that is using it ..

Just my 2 cents.
Well I certainly understand and respect where you're coming from vanhaze, but to me it doesn't really matter who's using it.

What's important for me is, what's the difference from simply using Reapers faders to do the same thing?

What I saw in that video was a rather klutzy way of doing this.

Now in all honesty, when I got to the part where he was changing between reference material, I quit watching.

I'm as interested in ways to use reference material as anyone, but the biggest problem I have is simply coming up with the reference material.

I mean no disrespect for you what so ever vanhaze, and I thank you for presenting this because it's still very interesting.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:24 PM   #7
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Melda Production's MCompare product is very nice, and quite a bit less expensive than Perception.

https://www.meldaproduction.com/plug...hp?id=MCompare
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:30 PM   #8
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I have T-RackS Deluxe and I love the metering. T-RackS CS is FREE and includes the metering module.

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/trcs/
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:57 PM   #9
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I always had difficulties in comparing my own music to radio music. I tried normalizing to 0 db, but that didn't work out. My music was still sounding softer even at 0 db peak. Compressing didn't help either enough.
Now I learned about this SWS action: SWS/BR - Analyze Loudness.
It gives you some strange (for me that is!) numbers in LUFS, but when I analyze a radio song, it has between -10 and -7 "integrated LUFS". And it turns out that when analyzing my own music, it has less than -15 LUFS. And here is the beauty part: when I normalize my music to about -8 LUFS, my music is about as loud as the radio song so I can now compare them without output level differences.
I hoe this is in the direction of your question?
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul99 View Post
I always had difficulties in comparing my own music to radio music. I tried normalizing to 0 db, but that didn't work out. My music was still sounding softer even at 0 db peak. Compressing didn't help either enough.
Now I learned about this SWS action: SWS/BR - Analyze Loudness.
It gives you some strange (for me that is!) numbers in LUFS, but when I analyze a radio song, it has between -10 and -7 "integrated LUFS". And it turns out that when analyzing my own music, it has less than -15 LUFS. And here is the beauty part: when I normalize my music to about -8 LUFS, my music is about as loud as the radio song so I can now compare them without output level differences.
I hoe this is in the direction of your question?
In all honesty Paul, I think you are missing the point here, or maybe I am.

From what I understand, it's not to get your music to be as loud as the reference material, but to bring the reference material down to the level of your own material.

How hard you want to hit your own material with a compressor or limiter is up to you.

However, when I'm using reference material along side my own material, I don't want to judge it on how loud it is, I want to judge my material on how it sounds against the reference material.

EDIT: Heh heh, I'm an old fart and still believe in dynamics.

Last edited by Tod; 02-04-2016 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:40 PM   #11
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The difference ... TIME, workflow efficiency.

I use both Perception and the free TBPro A/B utility.

Honestly, TBPro gets used the most, with various inserts throughout the FXChain with it's 30 different channels to work with.

Perception usually handles the GLOBAL.

Gain staging or correction after EVERY EQ change is a total distraction, but necessary. The TB plugin can auto gain balance, and provides a BYPASS to do efficient A/B'ing the effect[s] under watch.

Yes, there are some plugins that have auto gain compensation ... many others that don't. depends what you use.

Everyone's idea of workflow is personal I suppose.

Since the TB version is free ... you won't appreciate it till you try it for yourself.

Hint: they are in my default track start-up. Probably one of the most useful, 'no money spent' plugin I have.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:29 AM   #12
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There are 2 awesome systems I know of as extensions for reaper which can help with loudness.

The first is Heda's awesome loudness graph
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=159603

and the 2nd is the SWS loudness window in the sws extension.

Both are miracles for comparing loudness
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
There are 2 awesome systems I know of as extensions for reaper which can help with loudness.

The first is Heda's awesome loudness graph
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=159603

and the 2nd is the SWS loudness window in the sws extension.

Both are miracles for comparing loudness
Thanks MBN, I ran into Heda's post some time ago and was going to go back and get it, but I forgot about it.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
In all honesty Paul, I think you are missing the point here, or maybe I am.

From what I understand, it's not to get your music to be as loud as the reference material, but to bring the reference material down to the level of your own material.
Nono, you misunderstood me. With the SWS/BR action I analyse my own song woth the reference song and then via the option "normalize" I bring down my reference music temporary as low as my song. Then both my song and the reference song are of the same loudness and then I can really compare them. Maybe it is a bit clumsy, but it works for me.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:04 PM   #15
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In a blank session:

- I just throw my mix to track#A with some analyser plug-in (for free T-Racks, Melda Loudness Analyser or Voxengo SPAN would do it, or all of them)

- I duplicate the track into track#B

- remove the mix from track#B

- insert the reference mix

- display track#A plug-in to the left and track B to the right

- start playing

- reduce the loudness of my mix to radio track levels

- use your ears, they can reveal much more than a single loudness meter

It is useful to get familiar with one kind of measure / method (I've been using RMS merers for ages so I'm an RMS guy rather than LUFS). Analyse an ample of commercial materials to be able to realise the desierd levels where you want to go. After a while you'll know the desired values and don't even need a reference track just the measured value and your ears. Also, don't be fooled with RMS / LUFS values only. There are 1000 other ways to open your mixes to a marketable level than slamming.

Last edited by NecroPolo; 02-07-2016 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Gain staging or correction after EVERY EQ change is a total distraction, but necessary.
I'll respectfully disagree with the above and side with Tod here.

In my view (just another random opinion, nothing to debate) 95% of the digital gain staging stuff is pointless and has no audible effect on the end result. I'm well aware that some people disagree with that, and that's fine too.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
However, when I'm using reference material along side my own material, I don't want to judge it on how loud it is, I want to judge my material on how it sounds against the reference material.

EDIT: Heh heh, I'm an old fart and still believe in dynamics.
Same here. The only thing I use reference tracks for is sound, to see how close mine sounds to something else great, frequency wise, balance wise, imaging, etc, etc, etc.

In that regard I'll pull the reference track down to match my master bus "apparent level". It doesn't have to be a perfect match down to a fraction of a db to do that, you just don't want the level differences to be wide enough to slant the comparison.
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