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04-29-2009, 05:42 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 141
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Making bass more present
I've recorded a song that I'm really happy with (very synthy). In the second verse a synth bass and drums kick in and really take the song up a notch. The synth baseline really *makes* this song (it's a mellow bass patch that actually sounds a lot like a regular electric bass).
Anyway, the song sounds GREAT on my home studio monitors, but when I take it out to the dinky car stereo, there's almost no bass.
Just wondering what techniques there are for making bass more apparent on less than ideal sound systems (I'm looking something an average home recordist can do with the tools available in Reaper).
Of course I could just crank the bass, but that screws the way the track sounds on decent systems.
I'm thinking some compression on the bass would be a start, but would appreciate any tips.
Last edited by Ral-Clan; 04-29-2009 at 05:56 PM.
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04-29-2009, 05:59 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
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I think many stereos tend to suffer a bit in the really low bass range (say, everything below 80 or 100) - it's just not feasible to reproduce sounds down there below a certain size/power of speaker.
Given that, I'd try rolling off that lower range and giving your bass a lot more from 100 to 300.
If your guitars (or whatever instruments are going on) are scooped anywhere, try boosting the same range on the bass to help it poke through.
Some multiband compression on the bass (both the bass itself and on the master track) would probably help too, but I don't know the first thing about how to "correctly" use it.
Last edited by Lokasenna; 04-29-2009 at 06:02 PM.
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04-29-2009, 06:17 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 2,261
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don't those 'max bass' plugins and the like handle things like this well? where they accentuate the upper harmonics of the bass? might be worth a try
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04-29-2009, 06:40 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Try doubling the bass with a midi guitar sound (or similar) for more attack. It works pretty well. Obviously I haven't heard the song but that is one of those old bass tricks.
Hard to give specific tips in the dark though. Sometimes EXTREME eq is called for like huge booosts.
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04-29-2009, 06:40 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,955
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a little distortion or amp simulation on basses make them translate to different systems a lot better, at the expense of some clarity. careful you're not pushing too much/too little sub. it's the hardest part of a mix to get right though, i reckon.
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04-29-2009, 06:49 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ral-Clan
I've recorded a song that I'm really happy with (very synthy). In the second verse a synth bass and drums kick in and really take the song up a notch. The synth baseline really *makes* this song (it's a mellow bass patch that actually sounds a lot like a regular electric bass).
Anyway, the song sounds GREAT on my home studio monitors, but when I take it out to the dinky car stereo, there's almost no bass.
Just wondering what techniques there are for making bass more apparent on less than ideal sound systems (I'm looking something an average home recordist can do with the tools available in Reaper).
Of course I could just crank the bass, but that screws the way the track sounds on decent systems.
I'm thinking some compression on the bass would be a start, but would appreciate any tips.
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FWIW, It sounds like the fundamental of the synth bass is beyond (lower) than what the car stereo speakers can reproduce.
To counteract this, as has already been mentioned, you could use something like Waves Maxx Bass. This will accentuate the harmonics... which will raise the apparent loudness of the bass on smaller speakers.
If you're good with synth programming, you could edit the source sound to achieve the same result. IMO, That's actually your best option.
Jim Roseberry
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com
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04-29-2009, 07:12 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 861
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To add to the above mentioned - don't forget that low end can be lost in car stereo systems from the actual sound of the road. I'm serious here as I've been down that road (yes, punn intended). Try this, listen to your mix when the car is moving and as you stated, the bass is barely heard. Now, listen to it when you are at a stop sign or stop light and you will hear what I'm talking about. Strange.
Also, regarding eq - the bass is more heard from the attack of the bass, not the body. The body of the bass is more felt than heard. If you want your bass to stand out more in a mix, you'll need to find the attack of the bass timbre and boost it there. Also, you don't want it too low as that will take away alot of energy. Apply a cut to remove the way, way low frequencies. I find many synth basses sound better when cut at around 100 Hz. HTH.
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04-30-2009, 05:27 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Californy
Posts: 64
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Try ReaEQ sweep
Hey Clan,
If you've read ReaMIx, he uses a technique where you insert ReaEQ in every instrument channel. Then (solo'd) sweep each channel with a narrow band filter to find the strong frequencies of the instrument. You can then boost those frequencies to get a fuller sound. I worked wonders in my last mix.
Good luck
FS
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04-30-2009, 05:59 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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you might also want to check your monitoring for a peak in the range of the bass line.
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04-30-2009, 09:26 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 258
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If your mix isn't translating, it likely has to do with your room and the lack of treatment... especially on bottom end issues.
Sounds like you have a peak in the listening position that tells you you have enough bass when it actually is NOT enough.
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05-01-2009, 08:07 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roseberry
If you're good with synth programming, you could edit the source sound to achieve the same result. IMO, That's actually your best option.
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I would try making a duplicate MIDI track an octave up in this situation. You can mess with EQ and harmonics etc too... but when MIDI is in hand, blending in a track that is simply playing an octave up can work wonders. I wouldn't go this route generally with a real bass... different animal.
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05-01-2009, 08:22 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 634
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To do this just using Reaper plugins:
1. You could duplicate the synth part
2. add valvey drive to the copy
3. subcut the copy
4. mix this with the original.
This is doing the same thing as some of the above plugins. You can also finely tune the driven copy with an EQ and compression.
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05-01-2009, 08:24 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,028
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There are also a bunch of JS effects that do the MaxxBass deal.
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05-01-2009, 08:31 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 258
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none of this stuff matters if your room isn't right.
hello?
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05-01-2009, 11:11 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartfelt
none of this stuff matters if your room isn't right.
hello?
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Also, what home monitors are you using? These need to be accurate as well.
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05-03-2009, 07:36 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Starship enterprize
Posts: 364
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I fought this problem for two years. Until I bought the dyna audio bm5 monitors and bass traps etc and analyzed and treated my room. Your investment in GOOD monitors is absolutely as ,if not more important than the DAW A/D front end you use. You will never adequately solve your problem until you do this. There are stop gap measures such as boosting the bass for one particular player over another,but you would have to have seperate mixes for each player. If the speakers can't reproduce the bass frequencies you are producing then it is supposed to sound thin.
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05-03-2009, 11:02 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Basel, Switzerland
Posts: 4,715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirk
If the speakers can't reproduce the bass frequencies you are producing then it is supposed to sound thin.
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correct - which is why better studio-monitoring doesn't help one bit with his problem...
quite the contrary actually: you could say his studio monitoring is 'too good'
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05-03-2009, 12:15 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartfelt
If your mix isn't translating, it likely has to do with your room and the lack of treatment... especially on bottom end issues.
Sounds like you have a peak in the listening position that tells you you have enough bass when it actually is NOT enough.
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This is more than likely the deal. I'd bet on it. Investigate this issue, try and fix it, and things will improve. Good luck.
Dan
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05-03-2009, 01:40 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In a van, down by the river
Posts: 3,574
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Sounds like some delicate use of compression and EQ are necessary, perhaps maybe even some multiband compression, to single out and duck frequencies that are messing with the domain of the bass? May require some automation, so you are just addressing the parts in the song that need it, but may be worth the trouble if the song is good enough and it's worth it!
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05-03-2009, 01:59 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 951
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It wouldn't hurt to have a decent Spectrum Analyzer in the master buss for visual inspection of your freqs as well. Try Voxengo SPAN.
__________________
Shredder
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05-03-2009, 03:03 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Starship enterprize
Posts: 364
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Jens
That is probably true to a degree,,,but I had a similar problem.If the home system is falsly producing the bass that he is hearing by boosting it through the eq or what ever then he isn't hearing what was actually recorded. He's hearing what he made his home monitors reproduce through manipulating the bass frequencies. What was hard for me to get my head around in my case was that when I played a song the monitors were not reproducing the actual sound or bass flat and raw as was actually recorded.In other words by analyzing what the frequencies coming out of the speakers were and comparing them to the recorded signal frequencies they didn't match. So I concluded that until I actually purchase monitors that could reproduce the recorded frequencies acurately I would never be able to make an adequate mix. hope that makes sense.
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05-03-2009, 03:21 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ral-Clan
...
Anyway, the song sounds GREAT on my home studio monitors, but when I take it out to the dinky car stereo, there's almost no bass.
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Surprised this hasn't been asked, but have you used a known good professional recording as a reference? I mean, if a Red Hot Chili Peppers song has no bass on your car stereo either, the problem might not be with your mix...
That being said, kick drums and bass should have high/mid frequency characteristic as well as the low, so that when played on small speakers with limited low frequency response, you can still hear it...
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05-04-2009, 12:50 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
It wouldn't hurt to have a decent Spectrum Analyzer in the master buss for visual inspection of your freqs as well. Try Voxengo SPAN.
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+1 for SPAN. I use this with every project. I'd be lost without it as my ears don't pickup everything.
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05-04-2009, 09:14 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12
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I had some issues like this once, and I found that an excellent way to bring out the bass guitar was to cut some low frequencies of other instruments just enough that you barely noticed a change. Acoustic guitars were especially nasty offenders down low. I also did a sidechain compressor that ducked out the bass whenever the kick hit, and that sorta made the bass/kick combo a bit punchier too. Being a rookie, I was pretty impressed with my results.
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05-05-2009, 05:38 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In a van, down by the river
Posts: 3,574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredder
It wouldn't hurt to have a decent Spectrum Analyzer in the master buss for visual inspection of your freqs as well. Try Voxengo SPAN.
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Where the hell have I been... I didn't know SPAN was free! Need to grab that.
Ral - How are you making out?
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05-05-2009, 07:02 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 6,919
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Crispy,
Voxengo has a bunch of cool free stuff, where you been bro? Their 'commercial' stuff is very good and reasonably priced, also. I really like the Voxengo stuff and use if regularly. (Also the Stillwell/Schwa stuff).
__________________
Peace...
bluzkat
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05-05-2009, 07:39 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In a van, down by the river
Posts: 3,574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluzkat
Crispy,
Voxengo has a bunch of cool free stuff, where you been bro? Their 'commercial' stuff is very good and reasonably priced, also. I really like the Voxengo stuff and use if regularly. (Also the Stillwell/Schwa stuff).
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I've heard very good things about Voxengo - good looking out my man!
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