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Old 09-16-2014, 11:36 AM   #1
brainwreck
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Default Thinking a bit about this collab stuff...

To me, there seems to be some difficulties in making online collabs work - keeping motivation, progressing forward (unless Cosmic is involved...try and keep up). In the past, playing with bands / making up songs, a big part of arriving at something finished was jamming on a song or riff that someone brought in. Sometimes it would take unexpected turns for the better (happy accidents), or somone would make suggestions on the fly that made all the difference - that immediate back and forth interaction helps a lot, I think - each person influencing the others in realtime - playing off of each other, suggestions, opinions, accidents. We don't really have that dynamic online, sending files back and forth, over days/weeks. Can anything be done to bring some of that dynamic to online collabs? Maybe ninjam, or something similar would be helpful? Maybe just coordinating times between the people involved in a project and working together during those times, for more immediate interaction?

Any thoughts?
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:28 PM   #2
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People with the same style, tastes, and targets. Put toghether in skype with the same project (template, stems...) opened in front. That's all if you want to do something seriously.

Forum collabs are useless 99.9%.
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:43 PM   #3
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From my POV, they seem to be pretty much closed to anyone but Musicians. There are rarely any RPP files, rarely a full track set or source files, so it makes it hard for Producer's, mixers etc to get involved.

This is a forum supporting a DAW, so there is a wide range of talent here - not just musicians.

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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
To me, there seems to be some difficulties in making online collabs work - keeping motivation, progressing forward (unless Cosmic is involved...try and keep up). In the past, playing with bands / making up songs, a big part of arriving at something finished was jamming on a song or riff that someone brought in. Sometimes it would take unexpected turns for the better (happy accidents), or somone would make suggestions on the fly that made all the difference - that immediate back and forth interaction helps a lot, I think - each person influencing the others in realtime - playing off of each other, suggestions, opinions, accidents. We don't really have that dynamic online, sending files back and forth, over days/weeks. Can anything be done to bring some of that dynamic to online collabs? Maybe ninjam, or something similar would be helpful? Maybe just coordinating times between the people involved in a project and working together during those times, for more immediate interaction?

Any thoughts?
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:50 PM   #4
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Would yacking on phone help? Clarify confusions, and make difference show up?

How about deadlines?

One thing that happens in productive collaborations is CLEARING the schedule. Set a weekend when you and your collaborators will do nothing else. JUST work at the project!

How about setting aesthetic standards first, in a statement you all sign off on that sets out what kind of thing you are going for? THEN, everything is measured against that.

just thinkin about organizational strategies...
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
From my POV, they seem to be pretty much closed to anyone but Musicians. There are rarely any RPP files, rarely a full track set or source files, so it makes it hard for Producer's, mixers etc to get involved.

This is a forum supporting a DAW, so there is a wide range of talent here - not just musicians.
Point taken Mr Hamm
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:09 PM   #6
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People with the same style, tastes, and targets. Put toghether in skype with the same project (template, stems...) opened in front. That's all if you want to do something seriously.

Forum collabs are useless 99.9%.
I don't know about voip...I think I would be too distracted by it, especially with multiple people involved. But I think that realtime communication could be helpful. Chat would probably be less distracting for me, still having that realtime communication, but without hearing people talking while recording or mixing.

Stems, definitely. We're all running different setups and plugins. One thing that comes to mind here is, what if the song in a project gets rearranged? It seems like something like git for musicians would be helpful here.

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From my POV, they seem to be pretty much closed to anyone but Musicians. There are rarely any RPP files, rarely a full track set or source files, so it makes it hard for Producer's, mixers etc to get involved.

This is a forum supporting a DAW, so there is a wide range of talent here - not just musicians.
Good point. I think that people are generally reluctant to post full projects, for whatever reasons (I see that Garrick just did that). Maybe it's to do with letting other people hear the naked tracks? Or technical bits, such as organizing the back and forth of full projects?

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Would yacking on phone help? Clarify confusions, and make difference show up?

How about deadlines?

One thing that happens in productive collaborations is CLEARING the schedule. Set a weekend when you and your collaborators will do nothing else. JUST work at the project!

How about setting aesthetic standards first, in a statement you all sign off on that sets out what kind of thing you are going for? THEN, everything is measured against that.

just thinkin about organizational strategies...
Yea, setting time aside and committing to it would probably be good for moving things along.

Not sure what you mean by aesthetic standards.

Organizational strategies....gets me thinking about dealing with sharing projects, keeping everyone who is involved updated...a versioning system. How might a versioning system work for Reaper projects? It wouldn't have to be some new software, but some standardized protocol for sharing and updating projects might be a good thing.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:19 PM   #7
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Exellent thoughts and suggestions.

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Would yacking on phone help? Clarify confusions, and make difference show up?
Wow. Using old telecom technology! What a concept. I do think it could help.

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How about setting aesthetic standards first, in a statement you all sign off on that sets out what kind of thing you are going for? THEN, everything is measured against that.
This is an excellent idea, one I could get into.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:21 PM   #8
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How about setting aesthetic standards first, in a statement you all sign off on that sets out what kind of thing you are going for? THEN, everything is measured against that.
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This is an excellent idea, one I could get into.
Can you explain your thoughts on this?
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:31 PM   #9
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Really, it could be as simple as describing the type of playing, or genre of music, or maybe even getting into specifics like: I'm looking for a Queen type bass, with AC/DC type guitars, and Beatle type vocal harmonies.

I am being elementary, but it could be a description of the tempo, or time signature, or how about "first takes only", or no more than five notes to a melody, or "we all need to consume a pint before having a go at recording".

I know I am being silly, but you get the idea.

It could be a simple, or as complex, as wanted.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
To me, there seems to be some difficulties in making online collabs work - keeping motivation, progressing forward (unless Cosmic is involved...try and keep up). In the past, playing with bands / making up songs, a big part of arriving at something finished was jamming on a song or riff that someone brought in. Sometimes it would take unexpected turns for the better (happy accidents), or somone would make suggestions on the fly that made all the difference - that immediate back and forth interaction helps a lot, I think - each person influencing the others in realtime - playing off of each other, suggestions, opinions, accidents. We don't really have that dynamic online, sending files back and forth, over days/weeks. Can anything be done to bring some of that dynamic to online collabs? Maybe ninjam, or something similar would be helpful? Maybe just coordinating times between the people involved in a project and working together during those times, for more immediate interaction?

Any thoughts?
This may or may not relate with audio but I developed 3d maps for Quake games for a long time and on our little corner of the internet I started a mapping collab project. My first one was a total success. The second one an absolute failure.

In the first, the rules were laid out with lots of freedom but the important part is I built the first room. I asked others to expand on it and create a small duel size area (constraints!). I said to keep the theme of the first room but change it in some way for the next room, adding to it. In that sense I allowed for a lot of creativity but put a restraint in at the same time.

17 people contributed and the map was polished as f***.

The second contest the theme was voted on before hand, and I put a new rule in based on what I *thought* at the time was a downside of the last contest, too many rooms that reflected each individual too much. This time I said 1 room only, stick to the theme, and simply make it as detailed as possible and add cool things and basically overload the area with awesomeness.

It died after about 5 contributors because people got bored, could not be creative, and felt restricted.

So basically in conclusion. Set a theme without saying what the theme is by recording a basic idea. Try if you can to put up a completed song structure. People can bend it into something else if they want, but if it isn't completed to begin with they'll be way more hesitant to do it themselves.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:48 PM   #11
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This is kind of the way I view a good, progressive collaboration.

First, the whole song, start to finsh is recorded, on just one instrument. For instance, I would probably record keyboards.

Then, instructions would come with the dry wave file, as to what the vision for the rest of the parts should be.

Lastly, as all the parts get added, the mix stage could be entered by various people who have a penchant for such.

Same with final master.

Awards and platinum records could be shared by all. Perhaps, a month at everyone's house.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:54 PM   #12
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But, I think to make it work best, the musicians (and mixer/producer) would have to be selected beforehand.

This way, each individual would be able to create their own piece of the puzzle, without having to worry about stepping on (or being stepped upon) one another, whilst working out their respective part.
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:33 PM   #13
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^ I agree there. Another thing is to include some friendly competition.

For e.g.

Seek out guitarist, percussionist, keys, vocals, bass, etc and match them in two groups. Set out the guidelines for the type of song (the song's goal.. dancy, groovy, jammy, nu-metal, w/e ) and see whose song ends up the favourite (in a friendly manner of course, more to help in the creation than for any post-recording awards or anything).
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:20 PM   #14
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Perhaps we can use Indaba Music as a collaboration platform. Just checking it out - free, seems to have a decent workflow, messaging, file management, etc.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:02 AM   #15
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Really, it could be as simple as describing the type of playing, or genre of music, or maybe even getting into specifics like: I'm looking for a Queen type bass, with AC/DC type guitars, and Beatle type vocal harmonies.

I am being elementary, but it could be a description of the tempo, or time signature, or how about "first takes only", or no more than five notes to a melody, or "we all need to consume a pint before having a go at recording".

I know I am being silly, but you get the idea.

It could be a simple, or as complex, as wanted.
Yeah, what he said. But I would also add specifics about key musical things - like a thematic melody, or a thematic set of chord changes.

Giving guidance does not kill creativity, but sets it off on its own twisty path.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:11 AM   #16
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Really, it could be as simple as describing the type of playing, or genre of music, or maybe even getting into specifics like: I'm looking for a Queen type bass, with AC/DC type guitars, and Beatle type vocal harmonies.

I am being elementary, but it could be a description of the tempo, or time signature, or how about "first takes only", or no more than five notes to a melody, or "we all need to consume a pint before having a go at recording".

I know I am being silly, but you get the idea.

It could be a simple, or as complex, as wanted.
Sigh... I tried ...
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:22 AM   #17
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Sigh... I tried ...
Hey, didn't you say 7 days? On my Sunday night...? I'm still on...
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:16 PM   #18
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Sigh... I tried ...
Oh, really.

I was unaware of this.

What happened, exactly?
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:03 AM   #19
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Me and my drummer use drop box. We make sure we have all the same plugins for reaper and we drop the entire project on the Dropbox. If he works on the drums and saves them then I immediately have the updates. If I see the project at a point where I want to save a version, then I just copy the project to my computer as a backup--same goes for making drastic changes that I'm iffy about. Work on an offline version and post an mp3 for him to consider, if it's good then update the online project. It's got its flaws but it works for two people in different time zones who generally aren't working at the same time. Maybe something with more thought/guidance/rules could be put together to utilize a system like that.

I like the idea of completed song structure to start with, although I don't think it's necessary depending on the project and/or the musicians.

I don't know what video chat is like nowadays when everyone has good broadband, but if it's good enough to play a diddy in real time and have people listen that could be a good way to go to audition variations of a riff. One of my big problems is deciding that something I made up is worth recording. When I'm with a band I have someone there to tell me that something is cool and then they can immediately play along with it and flesh things out. By myself, I just play riff after riff and forget most of them because I'm my worst critic.

I agree that limiting the pool of talent is essential. One drummer, one bass, one or two guitar players and whatever vocalists are required---keeping in mind of course that I'm talking about 'standard' tracks or specifically 4-5 piece metal/rock. I don't know that the competition aspect is a good idea outside of setting up something like that for fun...a third party sets the original idea (a riff, a song structure, whatever) and two separate groups flesh it out and we vote. Could be a good time, but I think it will only hurt in the long run if the norm is to get a bunch of people working on something just to scrap the work of a group of people a month into it. I think to the same effect you could just audition people. 'Heres a quick snippet of what we're working on, record a 30 second clip in X direction to show us what direction you would go in, we'll pick someone to move forward with in one week' and avoid killing everyone's motivation to work on collabs. In the future.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:02 AM   #20
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How about appointing a producer? Doesn't need to be the songwriter or front man or whatever, but someone who has the producers duties of getting it all together... hm? Keeping contact with performers, see to that things move along and such...?

Me, I would love to have a song arranged for me... a wet dream... only playing the songwriters role, not ensemble conductor, not arranger, not sing or play at all...
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:44 AM   #21
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And, likewise, I would enjoy being given a piece and 'I want something melodic and slow here, crushing heavy here and fast as hell here' with the drums and maybe even bass & one guitar filled in already.

I think maybe one of the biggest issues is an effective means of filesharing the project so that multiple people can work on it but without stepping on eachother and saving over changes with older content when two or more people are working at a time.

How awesome it would be to have a system where 4 people could log in and open up the Reaper project, but at any given point only one person has editing control. There could be a dialogue box (that even includes instant messaging) where each user would be able to request control and the active user would then have the choice to continue working or relinquish his control. Changes would be seen by each person in realtime, comments could easily be made on those changes in real time, but there would be no way to overwrite someones edits that you haven't seen/loaded yet with older material while you're working on a different area of the project. I believe some office software has this sort of capability already for sharing spreadsheets and the like...obviously something like Reaper is more complex than that, but I'm sure it could be done with some coding know-how and a proper file-hosting site.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:47 AM   #22
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I don't know that the competition aspect is a good idea outside of setting up something like that for fun...a third party sets the original idea (a riff, a song structure, whatever) and two separate groups flesh it out and we vote.
I once did something like that here on the Reaper Forum.

I came up with a piece of music where I recorded the essential backing tracks (drums, bass, keys..) and then invited guitarist (specifically) to record 16 bars (or something like that) of lead, and then I posted the results.

It featured two different guitarist each time I posted it.

It was pretty fun, not really a competiton, but with a little one-up-man-ship involved.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:50 AM   #23
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That does sound fun.

All of my tracks are ripe for a similar setup with vocalists, and I could EASILY get rid of the bass I have recorded and do it with that as well...and I might be pushed to drop one of the guitars too :P

Well...as long as whoever does it with the bass/guitar would be willing to tune to F# standard :/
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:16 AM   #24
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Producer.

If it's a cover, then there's the arrangement. But naturally, it's funnier to make music, not only perform it...
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:06 PM   #25
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Jorgen, by funnier do you mean comical, or more fun?
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:26 PM   #26
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Jorgen, by funnier do you mean comical, or more fun?
More fun. Excuse me.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:37 PM   #27
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Organizational strategies....gets me thinking about dealing with sharing projects, keeping everyone who is involved updated...a versioning system. How might a versioning system work for Reaper projects? It wouldn't have to be some new software, but some standardized protocol for sharing and updating projects might be a good thing.
indabamusic.com has kind of that, including an online mixer (that you didnt had to use, though). I know it from a few years back, and back then it really had its flaws, but you could get something done with and within it.

it would have to be a online versioning system, groupware of some kind. and that would mean a big, big capable server and that would mean some people with exaggerated programing skills to set up the server and program the user interface, let alone the logic of the tracking and versioning system and the rights-management serverwise to be able to access the files belonging to a project where one is an admitted member. so, at least a huge SQL-based management must be present and a server-architecture, that can handle the load and the members and the different rights of the members.

you cant do that in php, thats for sure. and the person(s) who set that up have to be musicians. I at least would not want to explain the needs of cooperating musicians to a webdesigner or an application-developer. I think for the fact, that there should be no or near no money be involved, this is far too huge a project to be handled by non-paid people.

and before someone asks ... no, if I would be paid I couldnt pull that off. I know enough about these things to know that this would be really big, thats why I mentioned the money. :-)) I am not looking for a job. :-))
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:50 PM   #28
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More fun. Excuse me.
I thought so. I don't mean to call you out or anything, it just kind of threw me for a (very short) loop and then I realized with the whacked out nature of English what 'funnier' would appear to mean if our language followed any sort of logic :P
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:48 PM   #29
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I thought so. I don't mean to call you out or anything, it just kind of threw me for a (very short) loop and then I realized with the whacked out nature of English what 'funnier' would appear to mean if our language followed any sort of logic :P
Just leave it, will you?
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:57 PM   #30
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Sigh... I tried ...
Well, so did I... when will you give it a listen...?
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:55 PM   #31
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Some good ideas here. Trying to get organized for collaboration is a messy ordeal, I think. Maybe collaboration is just a messy process.
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Old 09-18-2014, 05:55 PM   #32
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Default Well, there are pretty good collab sites out there..

For me, online collaboration is the way to go...

I don't want to advertize, but I'm a kompoz.com junkie. ALL the music I do these days is somehow Kompoz related.

Basically, you upload an idea, and then other people hop in if they like your stuff... And sometimes the end result is insanely good.

it works because people upload their own seps (stems) to the project page, and one guy usually does the mixing.

and very track uploaded has it's own comment section, so we can talk about changes or stuff we want on directly on the track...

here is the project page of a song I posted here..

the first section is where everybody posts their mix, with their parts in context. And then the seps are below....

http://www.kompoz.com/music/collaboration/469522/files

works with my brainwaves, anyways...

Sorry for hijacking a bit
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:36 PM   #33
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After reading all the comments, seems it comes down to:

Organization (who's gonna do what)
Committing time (my personal biggest prob)
Communication--of course an essential
and setting few restrictions (makes creative folk insane)

Not so messy, BW, if all involved are willing to do the above.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:18 PM   #34
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After reading all the comments, seems it comes down to:

Organization (who's gonna do what)
Committing time (my personal biggest prob)
Communication--of course an essential
and setting few restrictions (makes creative folk insane)

Not so messy, BW, if all involved are willing to do the above.
I agree with all of that.
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Old 09-21-2014, 04:43 PM   #35
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I think having one person do the producing and mixing is a great idea.It'll give the project a centrepoint.

Person with idea uploads some kinda scratchtrack to a shared dropbox.

Everyone then grabs it and piles in with what they have..all goes in the dropbox.

Then the centre dude cobbles it all together into a track.
Using whatever bits wherever.

Have a thread going to discuss where its going and where it needs to go.
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Old 09-21-2014, 05:10 PM   #36
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This is sounding exciting again!
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Old 09-21-2014, 05:18 PM   #37
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I think having one person do the producing and mixing is a great idea.It'll give the project a centrepoint.

Person with idea uploads some kinda scratchtrack to a shared dropbox.

Everyone then grabs it and piles in with what they have..all goes in the dropbox.

Then the centre dude cobbles it all together into a track.
Using whatever bits wherever.

Have a thread going to discuss where its going and where it needs to go.
That does sound interesting.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:04 AM   #38
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Worked pretty well for us. Some of you might remember this collab. The three of us met here and came up with 8 original songs, all via email and back and forth mashups:

http://www.reverbnation.com/thefreezetagassassins/songs
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:46 AM   #39
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Worked pretty well for us. Some of you might remember this collab. The three of us met here and came up with 8 original songs, all via email and back and forth mashups:

http://www.reverbnation.com/thefreezetagassassins/songs
Thats awesome, as good or better than anything Ive heard in that genre.
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:51 AM   #40
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Shemp! Hey man, where've you been?

Speaking of old collabs and FA, anyone remember me and Pattonfreak?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../Dogman(2).mp3
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