New Pony Bones Recording: Thoughts appreciated

[tspring]

I've been away from the Reaper forum for a *long* time, but hoping to get back into things again.

I am very interested in what Reaper folks think of a song(Victim) my that my son's band (Pony Bones) has recorded.

https://youtu.be/OlJ2bhPWUfo

Some random bits of info:

* The song (Victim) is about a way of thinking that Shea (my son) ran into when he was living in California.

* In the latter part of the song you can hear an electro-mechanical distortion effect pedal that Shea is developing. It has a fairly unique sound I think.

*Shea had put the tune on CD-Baby to see if it would sell. After a few weeks we found it on U-Tube, put there by CD-Baby with Shea listed as copyright owner. Is this standard practice for CD-Baby? If so what do you think of this?

Recorded at Sweetfoot Studios using Reaper. Written and sung by Shea, who also plays the guitar parts.

T

PS: Apologies if You-Tube puts a commercial at the beginning. Also, there appear to be several bands named Pony Bones (yes, really), with the others being very strange. Internet searches for "Pony Bones" yield lots of peculiar stuff.

Edit: For those who cannot access the YouTube video, try this link: https://soundcloud.com/timspringer/victim

[msundh]

I got a 'the video is not available' error

[flickervetigo]

plays okay for me

one of shea's strong point is the words... maybe it would be good if you included the lyrics...

I think some of the instrumental parts could be whortened, it sounds good but seems to be maybe a minute and a half too long

...but that's compared to commercial pop songs, most of which are crap, anyhow

.

[tspring]

Hmmm... Still works for me. Not sure what is going on. I wonder if it is because you are in Europe, and CD-Baby has had You-Tube put some restrictions on access. Perhaps someone from North America will let us know if they can access it.

T

[tspring]

Originally Posted by flickervetigo

plays okay for me

one of shea's strong point is the words... maybe it would be good if you included the lyrics...

I think some of the instrumental parts could be whortened, it sounds good but seems to be maybe a minute and a half too long

...but that's compared to commercial pop songs, most of which are crap, anyhow

.

Hi Flickervetigo,

I will try to get lyrics and post them. I'm too close to the source to judge much of anything about Shea's work, but yeah, I do like the lyrics.

I stayed at a Bed and Breakfast in France that just happened to be owned by the former marketing director for a major French record label, and he made the same comment about song length after listening to the recording, so your comment is probably right on the mark.

T

[flickervetigo]

I don't know where shea wants to go with this music, but it looks to me like he's got a good shot at getting there

tell him I'm rooting for him

.

[tspring]

Victim

Lyrics:

In love with life,
In love with anything you think
Would love you back.
You see the light
When every thing around you dies
And fades to black.

Live on free,
Live on magically.

Victim of fate,
Victim of how the stars
Align across the sky.
Don't hesitate,
Nothing you do can change
The future sliding by.

Live on free,
Live on magically;
Live on free,
Live on magically.

You're only lying to yourself;
I know
That you know.
You're just a hazard to your health;
I know
That you know.

You're only lying to yourself;
I know
That you know.
You're just a hazard to your health;
I know
That you know.

[Oohs]

[tspring]

Originally Posted by flickervetigo

I don't know where shea wants to go with this music, but it looks to me like he's got a good shot at getting there

tell him I'm rooting for him

.

Shea will appreciate the vote of confidence Flickervetigo. Sweetfoot Studios is Shea's first priority right now, as it has been supporting him for the last three years. But like most other musicians, he is pretty serious about his own music too; He's got some great musicians to work with, so time will tell. So much randomness in what happens...

T

[tspring]

Originally Posted by msundh

I got a 'the video is not available' error

Would somebody else in Europe confirm problems accessing the video?

We think that there is a new arrangement between CD-Baby and new You-Tube streaming music services, and that CD-Baby is now treating You-Tube as just another audio distribution channel. Thus there may be regional restrictions on where the recording can be accessed due to copyright laws.

I wonder how a musician could derive any income from the CD-Baby/YouTube arrangement, not that we really expected any income from CD-Baby anyway. Or maybe I am missing something.

T

[Nystagmus]

yeah this isn't good since people have the technology to download the audio from youtube videos.

i wouldn't want cdbaby putting my tunes on youtube. it may be illegal, but stuff on youtube is as good as free.

[Bubble07]

Originally Posted by tspring

Would somebody else in Europe confirm problems accessing the video?

We think that there is a new arrangement between CD-Baby and new You-Tube streaming music services, and that CD-Baby is now treating You-Tube as just another audio distribution channel. Thus there may be regional restrictions on where the recording can be accessed due to copyright laws.

I wonder how a musician could derive any income from the CD-Baby/YouTube arrangement, not that we really expected any income from CD-Baby anyway. Or maybe I am missing something.

T

Plays Ok in the UK which is still in Europe at this time, I believe.

[flickervetigo]

Originally Posted by tspring

...Sweetfoot Studios is Shea's first priority right now, as it has been supporting him for the last three years. But like most other musicians, he is pretty serious about his own music too; ..

I hope he's got enough time left, after the studio, to think and write

sounds like he's pretty level-headed

.

[mschuster]

enjoyed this quite a bit! nice mix!

[Daniovan]

Hello,

I enjoyed listening to it

[tspring]

Danovian and Mschuster -- thanks for listening and taking the time to respond. Glad you enjoyed. Mschuster -- It is good to hear that the mix sounds good on your monitors.

T

[naturalbridge]

it sounds really good and the song itself is solid and creatively arranged.

my only nitpick is the different parts are maybe too disparate and dont fully gel as being different parts of the same whole. but thats just me really reaching for something critical to say about it.

[tspring]

Originally Posted by naturalbridge

it sounds really good and the song itself is solid and creatively arranged.

my only nitpick is the different parts are maybe too disparate and dont fully gel as being different parts of the same whole. but thats just me really reaching for something critical to say about it.

Your comment touches on what I think is one of the main dilemmas in song writing and arrangement. On the one hand, you want to stick to a somewhat familiar structure like AB-AB-AB-Bridge-AB because it makes it easier for the listener to grasp the song. On the other hand, you want to do something that is a bit unexpected to grab the users attention. Too formulaic and the song is blah, whereas a structure that is too different from expectation is hard to pull off without the song seeming disjoint or lame. Shea and I both like to push the structure as far from expectation as we can while maintaining some cohesiveness. So you work a lot on transitions and such to connect things. When you declare a song finished, you obviously think that you have made it work, or else you would do something else. However, the only way to know for sure if what you have done really works is if a lot of people tell you that it does or doesn't. So I really appreciate your comment (and so will Shea).

T

[Timothy Lawler]

I like it. The instruments sound rich and full. Hyper-rich and full, actually. The writing is creative. The vocal has skill and likability in the performance. That's pretty much all I want in a recording!

Nice distorted guitar starting around 2:50. The last third of the song was surprising to me - in a good way. Very Green Day-ish but without being dynamically squashed.

[Wolffman]

Video not available ( at least for me ) here in oz.

Cheers

[NKB]

Good song and vibe. Sounds like your son might have been listening to or inspired by some Death Cab for Cutie while writing that one.

Also, I listened to the other songs as well and all sound great to me. It's a solid EP overall.

[tspring]

Thanks Tim. I'm always glad to hear your comments - I have a deep respect for your musical ability and tastes. I'm glad the richness of instrumental sounds comes through to you. That is something that Shea works hard on. As I read your comments, the changes in song pattern and feel at around 2:50 are not too disjoint. Probably right on the edge, which is OK with me. Interesting that you hear the sound in the last part as being Greenday-like. They are not at the top of the list of Shea's favorites but on the other hand there could easily be an unconscious influence.

NKB, thanks for listening to all of the tunes on the EP. I think that it is pretty solid too, although there are a couple of weak spots in some of the recordings that I wish we had fixed. Yeah probably some influence from Death Cab For Cutie, but probably more from Spoon.

Wolfman and Mshudh... So it appears that folks in Sweden and Australia can't access the video. That's what you get for living in one of those uncivilized rogue countries that doesn't play nice with You-Tube. Try this link: https://soundcloud.com/timspringer/victim


T

[Dannii]

Just confirming another Aussie convict unable to see the video!
I'm running really low on data at present but will have a couple of GB extra over the weekend and will check out the Soundcloud version then and post my thoughts.

[msore]

Originally Posted by tspring

I've been away from the Reaper forum for a *long* time, but hoping to get back into things again.

I am very interested in what Reaper folks think of a song(Victim) my that my son's band (Pony Bones) has recorded.

https://youtu.be/OlJ2bhPWUfo

This is very capable work, both on the record/mixing side and the performance side of things. The musical basics are strong, as evidenced by how the song holds up as things change, develop. I like the steady way the piece gets more aggressive, loud, layered, and that works without doing damage to any of the parts. It got complicated without coming across as too dense, or too confused. I kept expecting some breakout from the steadiness, the regularity, but there were only a few things that got free. The drummer did a great job tossing in odd stuff, but just a little at a time while the whole piece never got off its track. I was hoping too when the guitar came on strong that it would be less well-behaved, but while the tone was superb, it was all very "on". Not just listenable, but pleasurable. Top notch. Serious thanks.

In reference to that talk between you and naturalbride, I would say that the piece is on the formulaic side of the continuum, and that the parts gel very well.

On the CDBaby question you raised, if it is the artist's property, the distributor should always consult with the artist. Their putting it on YouTube raises the question of what OTHER distribution tricks they are playing that the band doesn't know about.

[hamish]

The YouTube #PonyBones channel is not the first time I've seen such a channel. I don't think they will be very popular for google/You Tube.

The 'User generated content' is the most important stuff on You Tube and trying to create that with bots is not going to work.

I know from industry material I have read...

[Realtime listening comment - I love the lift at 3.30 the distortion effect is really working very well I think, so meaty - I'm calling 5 stars at the 4:15 mark onwards]

that big labels often make more money from YT via the Fan channels than the official ones.

Personally I would suggest pony bones should stay on bandcamp, and not assign any rights to any 'aggregator' such as CD baby.

Keep all rights and allow fans to put up YT videos via a CC3 licence.

[karbomusic]

Sounds nice man, doesn't sound like a bedroom. I know you like candid useful thoughts so I only have one thing...

I'm totally in to allowing the one guitar on the left to not always have a balanced counterpoint on the right. However, a few places in the song things come in and lean over to the left as well so if it were me, I'd give those a little preference towards the right because my brain wanted to think the mix as a whole leaned to the left a little. Even the slapback delay almost sounded like it wanted to be slightly to the left but could be my imagination or because I'm so tired from work there is some setting in my monitoring that I'm totally not realizing right now.

Otherwise, sounds great.


Edit: Eastern shore of Maryland - Is a place on the boardwalk called the Purple Moose still there in Ocean City? Used to gig there years back.

[zeekat]

Video not available here as well, right in the middle of Poland.

Pretty nice distortion! How do you do "mechanical" part in distortion? All I can think of is stabbing the speaker with a screwdriver, Kinks style.

[tspring]

Msore - glad to see that you are still around, and very glad to get feedback from you. You and Shea must have done a mind meld. You have repeated almost exactly the logic that Shea laid out to me when he was describing his goals in arranging the song, especially the buildup. And given your jazz sensibilities, I can definitely see how you would see the song and arrangement as leaning toward the formulaic side of arrangement. It is not at all what I would call experimental, but just gently pushes on the "pop envelope". As you say, there is no 'breakout' on this recording, but is something to try for in future recordings. Thanks again for the thoughtful comments.

hamish - I was hoping to get some comments on the distortion. It is nice to know that it sounded good to you. I would bet that you are right that channels created by CD-Baby bots will fail to generate much interest on Youtube. Indeed it might do just the opposite, if YouTube is flooded by bot generated music channels, and people realize that this is what is happening. We are blessed and cursed by our abilities to distribute music digitally. Just got to figure out how to avoid the cursed part. Your thoughts on this are much appreciated.

carbo - glad to hear from you too. Thanks for the critical listening, and the feedback on the left-right balance. The amplifier in one of Shea's main mixing monitors at Sweetfoot was giving some trouble a while back, so it is entirely possible that this through the balance off. I can't verify on my monitors at home as I know that I can't trust the left-right balance on my amplifier there. Next time I am at Sweetfoot we will check the balance there as the monitor amps have now been re-tuned. And yes, the Purple Moose is still open, and is about two hours drive from where I live.

zeekat - Sorry you can't access the recording on YouTube. Looks like YouTube has something against parts of Europe. I can say that no speaker was injured in the production of the distorted guitar sounds on the recording. Sorry I can't tell you more about how the distortion pedal. If we can just mod its design so that isn't so touchy, I'm hoping that it might be something other folks will want to have.

T

[msundh]

Hi
Have the same thoughts as naturalbridge about the different parts of the song, but cannot really make up my mind if it's good or bad commercially. I did find the drums in the break a little bit untight,off course, but I guess it's the rythm section in my brain that only handles steady rock
The song is great as always. Really great!

[Timothy Lawler]

tspring, I remember that you had seriously injured a finger - nearly cut off - about a year ago. How is it?

[tspring]

Hi Tim - thanks for remembering and caring. Yep, really messed up my left hand. Still no feeling in one finger except when it hurts (?!), but I am working on being able to play guitar again. Its pretty frustrating.

T

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by tspring

Hi Tim - thanks for remembering and caring. Yep, really messed up my left hand. Still no feeling in one finger except when it hurts (?!), but I am working on being able to play guitar again. Its pretty frustrating.

T

That's hard. I know what you're going through. I lost the use of my anular finger (right hand ring finger) a dozen years ago.

[stevedcook]

I'm only a newbie to DAW recording myself and thus no expert, and I haven't yet listened in my room om my monitors, but that really holds up well on small laptop stereo speakers, and the performances are all top notch. Has a nice indie movie soundtrack vibe, and it's a delightfully schizo song! The guitar fx at the end is cool and has potential. Kudos to the young man, band and studio, and apparently to the old man for keeping him real...

[tspring]

Tim, I've watched videos of you playing classical pieces, and never noticed that you weren't using your annular finger. It certainly has not affected the exquisite technique that I hear when you play classical pieces. And Django only had use of three fingers on his left hand. I guess that I have no right to whine.

Stevedcook - thanks for the listen. Glad you liked the tune and that it translated well to your small speakers. I'll pass the kudos along to Shea.

T