Question about pedalboard output.

[frkasper]

Dear all,

Newbie question and off-topic to REAPER. Please be patient, ok?

I have a pedalboard with 2 pairs of outputs (TS and XLR both with L/R channels) + another headphone output. Using a high-gain preset, If I get a single mono output and plug into the clean channel of my small 15W solid state amp it sounds really good to my ears (at moderate volume without pushing too hard).

However if I get the stereo output and plug it into my Bose multimedia speakers it does not sound as good as in amp (at similar volume).

Question is simple: does this have something to do with impedance? Or it is just not a fair apples-to-apples comparison, I mean Bose may have a 2x3" while the amp has a 1x10" configuration.

A small note, the output from my Bose speaker is equivalent to the sound taken in a dedicated headphone output listened through a monitor headphone.

Many thanks!

[karbomusic]

Try running it through something in reaper that can emulate a guitar cab, that should fix most of it. Others will chime in but I'm pretty sure you can use ReaVerb and load a cabinet impulse to do that.

I can tell you that a large amount of a pedal and amp sound is massaged by going through a speaker cabinet (assuming your pedal board doesn't have a setting that attempts to do the same thing).

[insub]

I think your problem is the output levels. Your Bose speaker system is meant to receive a consumer line level signal which is typically -10dBV, but your pedal likely outputs a pro line level signal which is typically +4dBu (much higher in amplitude). You will have to consult the owners manual of your specific pedal to know the actual output levels at each output jack. You amplifier probably sounds fine because it is designed to receive higher levels of input than the Bose system.

Many people do not seem to understand signal levels. Here are some links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/linelevel.shtml
http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/...level-signals/
http://recordmixandmaster.com/2010-0...the-difference

[zyisrad]

Guitar amp speakers are not full frequency. They are designed to make an electric guitar sound like an electric guitar. If you ever look at a music gear magazine you'll see they sell both acoustic guitar amps and electric guitar amps. Acoustic guitar amps are full frequency.

Consumer grade speakers are designed to reproduce sounds accurately with small EQ variance for listening enhancement. Also your speakers' amp has a different gain structure that is designed not to clip at high volumes.

If you gave us the type of guitar pedal/board you're using, I could more accurately describe what's going on. But mainly pedal boards that emulate guitar amps have different outputs for the various things you'll plug them in to. Your guitar amp isn't designed to take a +4dBu level like professional speakers. RTM of your pedal/board to see what options it provides for plugging direct into a PA or mixer. If it doesn't have amp and/or cabinet simulation then it is not designed to be plugged into a PA, mixer, or full frequency speakers.

[karbomusic]

I think your problem is the output levels.

If that is the only problem then there has to be some type of speaker emulation setting in the pedal because the Bose multimedia speakers are full range speakers, the guitar amp isn't and anything but clean would sound a little ugly. If it is SIM type pedal like a POD then it wouldn't matter but if a traditional multi effect, or a pedal board with individual pedals, expecting to go into an amp, it would matter and be noticeable to most people who usually play it through a guitar amp.

That being said, improper levels don't get a free ride, that could also be part of the problem.

[frkasper]

Folks,

Appreciate your inputs. It could be levels or it could be the impedance, I don't know. I'll experiment more on this tonight but the pedalboard is the RP500 and here is the User Guide (see page 29 for specs).

More later. Thanks!

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by frkasper

Folks,
here is the User Guide (see page 29 for specs).

The manual implies that speaker emulation is on by default so unless you have bypassed amp/cabinet mode (which is the emulation), then you should be good on that front and only need to worry about levels. However, that is an emulation and some may not like hearing that through full range speakers compared to the amp width the emulation disabled, however, at this point I'm less concerned about that being the problem.

Amp/Cabinet Bypass Mode

The RP500 has the unique feature of being able to turn off amp and cabinet modeling globally in all presets.
This is extremely useful when you just want to add effects processing to your own core amplifier sound.
The RP500 effectively becomes a straight multi-effects box at this point...

So ^that wording implies that what I suggested is already on by default.

[frkasper]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

...some may not like hearing that through full range speakers compared to the amp width the emulation disabled, ...

That is definitely something I plan to test it tonight.

My worry though would be that -- when having such pedalboard (PB) -- whether I:

• need an amp;
• plug the PB though USB and pass IR on it (e.g.: ReaVerb) then to plug into full range speakers;
• plug the PB straight on full range speakers will always sound like sh**.

This is definitely not advertised before hand. Anyway, this is still all new to me. When I first plugged GR5 I thought the sound was amazing. My reference-floor is still very low but it is increasing so much that it has been 3 weeks that GR5 is not being launched.

I can't wait to start with valve amps (or preamps). Really.

Cheers,

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by frkasper

I can't wait to start with valve amps (or preamps). Really.

Cheers,

Since we don't truly know what you are hearing, I think you are on the right track as to identifying what is the root cause of what you don't like. It could be any or a combination of the above. Here are some personal only thoughts...

I have a number of amp sims (GR5, S-Gear, almost every POD bean in existence and including the PodFarm software). I often use them to record. I also have lots of mics and a few tube amps. I often record with them as well.

Let's say I'm just playing and not recording per se... I always like what I hear coming from the real amp. If I do that for an afternoon then fire up S-Gear or GR5, the SIMS sound completely annoying comparatively and takes awhile to get used to because regardless of the speaker/cab emulation, my ears don't like hearing that SIM through full range speakers when compared to the real amp. Once I get used to it, it isn't as bad I guess. :/

However, if I record both then listen back, we are on more level ground because both are now coming through the full range speakers. To be fair, I still enjoy hearing the real amp mic'd a little better but in the context of a mix they become much closer and less different once they are both in context. I'd still give a slight edge to the mic'd amp but once all is said and done in the mix it becomes less relevant compared to what we hear when playing.

All that being said, my general process is to find a tone that fits the particular mix and when I'm doing that, I'll simply choose the one that fits based on what I'm doing at the time. I have plenty of recordings where the SIM sounds great in context, and just as many where the amp sounds great in context but I can't say they are always 100% interchangeable if that makes sense.

[insub]

Originally Posted by frkasper

My worry though would be that -- when having such pedalboard (PB) -- whether I:

• need an amp;
• plug the PB though USB and pass IR on it (e.g.: ReaVerb) then to plug into full range speakers;
• plug the PB straight on full range speakers will always sound like sh**.

1. Need amp? Subjective and depends on situation. Are you playing in a band in a live situation? Depending on the available monitoring, you may or may not need an amp to monitor your own playing. To record? Depends on if you like the PB's amp/speaker cab emulations or not, or like the other effects with virtual amp/cab sims. But, you can record sans amp if you like. Either via USB direct or Line out to an interface. No amp necessary. Mic an amp if you like that sound better.

2. You most certainly can if that's you're preferred method or allows you to achieve the sound you're after.

3. Page 7 of the manual:
"7. XLR Mixer Outputs
The XLR outputs are designed for connecting to a recording device or mixing console. These outputs
always have speaker compensation active as they are intended to be sent into full a range audio system. "
Use the XLR outputs when connecting to a full-range speaker system. Either via mixer or direct.

Bottom line: You cannot expect a line out signal to sound exactly like the sound coming from your amp. The amp itself has much to do with the sound even on the clean channel. If you cannot obtain a satisfactory recording or live sound from line out to full range speakers then you need to consider mic'ing your amp instead. That's another can of worms... learning mic placement and which mic you like/can afford, etc.

In my opinion, my lead guitarist's PB (high-end Boss model with emulation) sounds fantastic recorded directly from the line outs. On the other hand, my rhythm guitarist's PB sounds horrible when recorded directly. But, his lesser model Digitech PB has no Line-level outs or balanced outs. It's designed to be connected to an amp (no simulator) and the output level shows. The output is at instrument-level and barely gets a decent record level even with the gain boosted when connected to a Line-level input. It's sound is intended to be heard after the affects of a real amp & speaker cab. It sounds fine from his Fender amp.

Input/Output levels are very important. You did not mention if the Bose unit is a consumer product (home stereo) or a professional product (PA system). My initial reaction was that you were referring to a consumer-type product, but then I remembered that they make a very nice compact PA system as well.

[MrBongo]

Originally Posted by insub

I think your problem is the output levels. Your Bose speaker system is meant to receive a consumer line level signal which is typically -10dBV, but your pedal likely outputs a pro line level signal which is typically +4dBu (much higher in amplitude).

don´t think so
2 years ago i played my 7string bass through a pedalboard + hifi stereo amp.
i had to use an EQ that provided a 20dB master boost, to even bring it up to a reasonable level for the amp. still had to crank it.

[frkasper]

Thanks again folks for the thoughts!

I made a few tests last night, not all I wanted, but it was important. I recorded a clean signal in REAPER and then routed to my DI box in reverse mode, i.e., reamping.

You were right about the speaker emulation karbomusic. It is always on and that specific PB has many of them installed. You know what I only noticed bad sounding because I was building my own custom preset using the amp and then when switched to my Bose speaker (it is the Companion 20, btw) it sounded like sh**.

The sound I liked was only achieved by bypassing the emulation and using the PB in stompbox mode (only with effects) and putting a TS output into my amp. The distortion effect engaged was very pleased coming from the amp. Switching to Bose, it sound even worse (which is the same to use a guitar amp VST plugin without loading an IR for cabinet).

Originally Posted by karbomusic

All that being said, my general process is to find a tone that fits the particular mix and when I'm doing that, I'll simply choose the one that fits based on what I'm doing at the time. I have plenty of recordings where the SIM sounds great in context, and just as many where the amp sounds great in context but I can't say they are always 100% interchangeable if that makes sense.

I'll certainly keep that to mind. For the time being it is just playing. I still suck playing so the sound at least has got to help, right?

Originally Posted by insub

3. Page 7 of the manual:
"7. XLR Mixer Outputs
The XLR outputs are designed for connecting to a recording device or mixing console. These outputs
always have speaker compensation active as they are intended to be sent into full a range audio system. "
Use the XLR outputs when connecting to a full-range speaker system. Either via mixer or direct.

I might need a mixer then. Damn...

In the reamping session I took a XLR out and plugged into my interface and monitored in REAPER. The sound output went to Bose through an RCA out (Output 3/4). It sounded equivalent to GR5, for instance. I hope this does not change the sound being emitted. I made a kind of sound loop: REAPER send Output 1 Interface -> DI box -> PB XLR out -> New monitored track in REAPER from Interface input -> To Bose speaker from Output 3/4. In parallel I took a TS out from the PB and plugged into my amp.

However, what I noticed was that the XLR out signal was very hot. The PB volume was set to 100% and I had to decrease the output volume from the interface. Putting the PB in bypass I calibrated the retro-fed clean signal to match the -6dBFS peaks in REAPER, as if it would be taken straight from my hot pickup plugged into interface.

Input/Output levels are very important. You did not mention if the Bose unit is a consumer product (home stereo) or a professional product (PA system). My initial reaction was that you were referring to a consumer-type product, but then I remembered that they make a very nice compact PA system as well.

I think Companion 20 is home stereo. I do appreciate your concern with levels. It is still kind of abstract to me though.

Cheers,

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by frkasper

However, what I noticed was that the XLR out signal was very hot. The PB volume was set to 100% and I had to decrease the output volume from the interface. Putting the PB in bypass I calibrated the retro-fed clean signal to match the -6dBFS peaks in REAPER, as if it would be taken straight from my hot pickup plugged into interface.

This was a while ago, but went unaddressed.

A (presumably passive) DI in reverse gives a pretty significant voltage step up. The "instrument" inputs on most interfaces also usually add a little bit of gain. If you plugged into that instrument input, recorded it, left the fader at unity, and played it back through the DI, you would probably be close to 30db hotter than plugging the guitar straight into the pedalboard itself! How much did you end up attenuating when you "calibrated" the thing?

The DI is superfluous in this scenario anyway. Just run a TS (or XLR>TS) cable from your interface to the pedalboard. Reamping is not as complicated as most people make it out to be.

There isn't much you can do about the gain on the instrument input except to run the guitar through some buffer (like the pedalboard in bypass) and then to a line or (maybe) mic input instead. Set the gain knob to unity. The DI won't help here, because in this direction it's a step down of about 20db, which does nothing but compromise your S/N ratio.

[frkasper]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

This was a while ago, but went unaddressed.

A (presumably passive) DI in reverse gives a pretty significant voltage step up. The "instrument" inputs on most interfaces also usually add a little bit of gain. If you plugged into that instrument input, recorded it, left the fader at unity, and played it back through the DI, you would probably be close to 30db hotter than plugging the guitar straight into the pedalboard itself! How much did you end up attenuating when you "calibrated" the thing?

The DI is superfluous in this scenario anyway. Just run a TS (or XLR>TS) cable from your interface to the pedalboard. Reamping is not as complicated as most people make it out to be.

There isn't much you can do about the gain on the instrument input except to run the guitar through some buffer (like the pedalboard in bypass) and then to a line or (maybe) mic input instead. Set the gain knob to unity. The DI won't help here, because in this direction it's a step down of about 20db, which does nothing but compromise your S/N ratio.

No worries. Thanks for the reply.

I thought the 20dB loss would work either way, in normal and reverse DI. Never thought the opposite for the latter ("...voltage step up?"). Then it makes sense why I had to attenuate a lot the signal to have it in similar levels when using in reverse DI. This is certainly something I can check it out.

My amp user guide is very superficial so I don't have the input impedance specs. In addition, my ears are not trained either to tell any difference (e.g: recorded signal from interface straight to amp vs recorded signal through DI in reverse then to amp). I would need to record through mic and see quantitative numbers (FFT, loudness, etc).

One thing to note for sure though. My recording skills are moving in a faster pace than my playing skills. Lots of time having fun while learning bedroom-recording stuff. lol.

Cheers,

[ashcat_lt]

The input impedance of your amp and pedalboard is plenty high enough for the output of your interface. If it was too low, youd notice with your guitar way before you heard anything change on the line out. There is no such thing as too high for your interface. Likewise, the amp itself doesn't care what impedance is driving it. We want the input impedance to be at least ten times the output impedance, and more is (nominally) better. The ratio of interface out to amp/pedal in is probably at least 1:500, so I think you're good.

The one thing that putting a transformer between interface and amp can do is give you a way to lift the ground connection in the case that straight cable connection makes it buzz. There are better ways to fix that.

Ok, I guess the transformer also can restrict the frequency response and add noise and possibly distortion. As long as it's spec'd right, it probably won't be noticeable for typical re-amping, but I think the possibility of such changes means you are less likely to get a faithful reproduction of what might have happened with the guitar right into the amp.

[frkasper]

Thanks ashcat_lt!