Old 02-17-2013, 07:57 PM   #1
devilsgirth
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Default Layering acoustic guitar help!!!

So I've got this acoustic riff with lots of palm muting and chucking and I don't want it to sound thin so I was wondering how to go about layering it to get the stereo sound without it sounding like two guitars playing at once. I don't know how "heart of gold" by neil young was recorded, my riff is sort of like that, just the one guitar with the chords. Is recording two separate takes the best bet and just keep doing take after take until they sound as close as possible?

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Old 02-18-2013, 03:40 AM   #2
jiff 41
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I would say YOU just answered your question, as an accoustic player myself i know how you feel(wander if anybody knows any shortcuts?) but if there is i haven't found em!, just keep at it is what i do,,different mike positions & all, then all of a sudden bang & it's there??(do i sound like an expert there?) so go figure as they say in the US!
ps; i'll be watching for replies (just in case?? )
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:35 AM   #3
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double the track and pan them hard left and right. for a quick fix use the adt vst plugin at about 12ms LR preset

try to play the two takes as much the same as possible at first
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:44 AM   #4
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The only way two tracks of the same instrument can sound like one is if they are played exactly the same way, time-divided, or potentially EQ'ed the right way(won't always work).

Record using multiple mic positions at the same time to have the ability to mix different responses. Use proper effects and recording techniques. A good sounding instrument with a proper mic and placement generally does not need a lot of work.

If it's thin then your describing an instrument without a lot of body or mid to low end. Hence try and use some EQ.

Most acoustic guitars are scooped because they generally are used more for percussive rhythm than anything when in a mix with a bunch of other instruments. The acoustic guitar just doesn't cut through the mix and generally just adds mud if not mixed right. Some types of scooping generally allows you to add low end which will create fullness to the acoustic guitar but it will keep it from sounding muddy.

An acoustic guitar as the main instrument supplying rhythm and harmony generally will still be scooped but generally not as much. Mids will tend to be pulled back some to reduce a dull sounding acoustic with some high end boost around 12k with some air at 16k. (this wildly depends on the type of acoustic guitar and how it is mic'ed)

In any case, it's up to you to figure it out. No one can help you out with any specifics unless you post a recording.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:51 AM   #5
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i don't chg anything when i dub guitars to get a phat sound. you can chg the mic position and EQ or add a lil chorus, but not essential. there will be enuf differences to get what you need

you just need to play accurately!

simply doubling/copying a track never works well. imo, it's the worst production technique in the history of recording. that goes for vocals and everything else too
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:12 AM   #6
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Try JUST playing the notes out of the original recording that NEED to be highlighted. Better than a duplicate.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:55 PM   #7
jcrisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsgirth View Post
So I've got this acoustic riff with lots of palm muting and chucking and I don't want it to sound thin so I was wondering how to go about layering it to get the stereo sound without it sounding like two guitars playing at once. I don't know how "heart of gold" by neil young was recorded, my riff is sort of like that, just the one guitar with the chords. Is recording two separate takes the best bet and just keep doing take after take until they sound as close as possible?
I'll toss out a few possibilities...

Have one guitar be the primary track, and duplicate, triplicate, etc as necessary via "duplicate track" action. For example, one might have the main guitar in center, duplicated guitar far left, and triplicated guitar far right. Play with the panning and volume of the left and right guitars to achieve desired stereo width and dynamics.

Percussive parts might be better to keep fully in sync so as to maintain a crisp attack, but certain parts of the guitar tracks might do well to be nudged a few milliseconds after the beat to thicken the notes, but not far enough milliseconds to sound like a flam or a slapback.

Something to consider when using multiple acoustic guitar is the loudness of finger squeak on the wound strings. As one multiplies the guitars, these squeaks can become overpowering unless one makes good use of fades to keep these noises under control.

Other considerations could include subtle filter, chorus, and/or phase effects on any, several, or all of the guitar tracks. Be judicious with the effect levels so that the mix doesn't get muddy.

Oh, and feel free to use, tweak or disregard my tips as necessary to achieve the sound you hope to achieve. :-)
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:40 PM   #8
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Do you have two mics? Here is a technique that I think works well. I also think it sounds slightly more like the player hears it than some other techniques ymmv. I spent about 5 minutes just now and made some examples for you. Maybe its closer to what you want or far from it but here it is...

Assuming you have two mics (preferably the same and small diaphragm condensers)... Place one at the head stock end of the guitar pointing in at an angle in the general direction of the 8-12th frets with the mic actually residing out towards the headstock pointing in at an angle. Place the second mic over your right shoulder (assuming you are a right handed player) at just above or at head height, pointing straight down at the floor and looking down from that position its about 6 inches in front. IE: Actually pointing at the floor and not directly over your shoulder pointing at the sideboard.

The distances from each mic to the guitar should be about the same. The 3:1 rule comes into play here so there isn't too much worry about phase. As-is this gives a very wide acoustic guitar sound best suited where its the main instrument and say a vocal dead center. It is almost too wide but since there are few phase issues you can modify that to taste in Reaper (see examples).

Here is an old pic. If you drew a straight line from one mic to the other (holding the guitar in playing position while sitting on the couch) that line would mostly be parallel with the front of the guitar. I mention because that isn't really so apparent in this 2d picture and the wide angle lense distorts the proportions somewhat:



These samples have no processing except 2db of compression because I think it is needed to smooth out the dynamics and support the thickness further. Its not responsible for the thickness, it just presents it a little better. So, this isn't meant to be perfect mic placement and perfect tone, I would normally cut the lows a good bit to remove the muddiness but I wanted to leave it as original as possible so you have an understanding of what you have to work with aka lows if you need em:

As-is and wide stereo:

http://tinyurl.com/bjad9dg

Same but width reduced to 50%. A little more natural stereo field IMHO:

http://tinyurl.com/avq3qz9

Back to wide again but panned about 50% to the right. Puts it on the right but the extra width leaves just enough on the left to keep the sense of space:

http://tinyurl.com/a5rb53u

One last thing, the room is everything. If the room is too live or just sounds bad you need to stay at least as close as the picture, the tighter or more pleasing the room sound is you can raise the shoulder mic higher and move the neck mic out further. If the room is horrible you'll end up too close so I'd start with something like the picture with maybe 18" from the guitar.

This was 60 second mic placement and strum (I don't know the song) as a clinical presentation and is in no way expected to be musically interesting. Hopefully this helps, it may be horrible to you ears and nothing near what you are trying to achieve but I couldn't think of a better way to get the idea across. Hope it helps or gives you some ideas.

Last edited by karbomusic; 02-21-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:38 AM   #9
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Aside of that pointed out by Karbomusic, if you only have one mic or tracks printed this way. Double the track and slightly Eq the two tracks just the opposite of course hard panned left and right. This is an old trick. You can use any Eq you like, but the Voxengo Overtone is ready for this. I sometimes like it and sometimes don't and use any other Eq. Then you can add any stereo enhancer, but they usually add some kind of phasing effect. Sometimes I like it and can live with it, sometimes just don't. Try by yourself. After that I sometimes add a parallel stereo compressor and make a folder with the three tracks and process the whole thing a bit further in the folder bus if needed.

I managed to get larger than life stereo guitars and pianos from mono tracks this way so many times.
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