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Old 05-17-2017, 11:52 AM   #1
kevinwayne
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Default HoRNet Auto-Gainstaging vs "Normalize to -23 LUFS"



Demo'd here:



Available here:

https://www.hornetplugins.com/plugin...t-vu-meter-mk3

Note in the comments someone dissed the idea of getting the Hornet plugin, incredibly inexpensive though it is:

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Originally Posted by Random Youtuber
omg man lol just select all items and run the action "Normalize loudness of selected items/tracks..." set it for -20 LUFS and its done. no need for extra CPU
Someone else recommended TBProAudio's Auto-Gainstaging JSFX plugin, turns out I already have that:

http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/download.html

So is Gainstaging something that can be trusted to software? I have the option to "Normalize selected items to -23 LUFS." Re-balance everything and be done with it. These things seem to indicate it's a "set it and forget it" deal.

How do you ["you," the reader] approach the task of Gainstaging?

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Old 05-17-2017, 11:58 AM   #2
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How do you ["you," the reader] approach the task of Gainstaging?
I will probably get flamed for my opinion, but I deal with gain staging the "old school" way....from the beginning. I make sure everything I am tracking (as much as possible) gets tracked at proper levels so mixing is easy for me. Anything that is too hot I lower the actual item level (with the little handle or knob on the item, depending on how you have your prefs set up). I don't worry about exact numbers, I just get everything in the -12db to -18db range. -23 is pretty extreme in my opinion, but if it works for you, go for it.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:15 PM   #3
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I will probably get flamed for my opinion, but I deal with gain staging the "old school" way....from the beginning. I make sure everything I am tracking (as much as possible) gets tracked at proper levels so mixing is easy for me. Anything that is too hot I lower the actual item level (with the little handle or knob on the item, depending on how you have your prefs set up). I don't worry about exact numbers, I just get everything in the -12db to -18db range. -23 is pretty extreme in my opinion, but if it works for you, go for it.
No flaming for an honest answer, here~!

Interestingly enough, not everything gets "turned down" when I use -23 LUFS. Often it's quite the opposite.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:54 PM   #4
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No flaming for an honest answer, here~!

Interestingly enough, not everything gets "turned down" when I use -23 LUFS. Often it's quite the opposite.
Wow, you really track with a "better safe than sorry" approach!
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:15 PM   #5
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There's really no need for that plugin when you have the actions mentioned. It's just an extra plugin you don't need. I often use those actions (I think you can have it use the item gain or the faders) - just run it, play the track through - you'll probably have a few peaks going too high so just grab all the faders (or all the item gains - doesn't really matter) and then turn them down until your peaks are going no higher than about -5dB or so on the master. That will get you into the ballpark you should be aiming for to start your mix.

Stick a VU on the master and fine balance everything so that the needle hovers around 0dB on the VU ( which is -18dB from full scale 0dB). I use TBPro Audio's free MVmeter.
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #6
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I use it all the time... Not strictly a necessity, but very convenient. If there are any scripts out there that do the same thing.... (SWS/BR: Normalize loudness of selected tracks to -23 LUFS) Found it....

Edit: sadly this action does not work... It runs but nothing happens to the wave file. -23 to items does work.
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Last edited by Robert Johnson III; 05-17-2017 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Bugs
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:47 PM   #7
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I use it all the time... Not strictly a necessity, but very convenient. If there are any scripts out there that do the same thing....
TBProAudio has just the thing for you in JSFX:

http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/download.html
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:48 PM   #8
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There's really no need for that plugin when you have the actions mentioned
Sorta what I figured. What's your take on normalizing to -23 LUFS?
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinwayne View Post
TBProAudio has just the thing for you in JSFX:

http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/download.html
Thanks for the link!
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:59 PM   #10
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Wow, you really track with a "better safe than sorry" approach!
True, but it all gets turned up if not in Mixing, def on the Master~!
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinwayne View Post
Sorta what I figured. What's your take on normalizing to -23 LUFS?
As with all gain staging in the audio only domain (not broadcasting) - what you want is a guide to help you produce consistent, better mixes. For mixing I generally stick to the 0dB VU (-18dB from 0dB full scale) system as it's pretty standard and makes perfect sense.

I don't use the LUFS scale - maybe I should be adopting it but I don't really see a need. It's there for broadcasting purposes really and it has resulted in a lot of inexperienced folks getting all wound up about meters and levels. I have my own referencing system - my ears and my calibrated monitor set up. For mixing I generally stick to the 0dB vU (-18dB from 0dB full scale) system as it's pretty standard and makes perfect sense.

I kind of hate the idea of mastering to rigid set levels. I mastered a track recently for a compilation - the guy putting the comp together said could I make it 2dB louder to fit his rigid LUFS figure that he thought the comp should be. This would mean I would have to distort the crap out of it so I said no - you do it if you really want to - I'm not putting my name to a ruined track.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43 View Post
I will probably get flamed for my opinion, but I deal with gain staging the "old school" way....from the beginning. I make sure everything I am tracking (as much as possible) gets tracked at proper levels so mixing is easy for me. Anything that is too hot I lower the actual item level (with the little handle or knob on the item, depending on how you have your prefs set up). I don't worry about exact numbers, I just get everything in the -12db to -18db range. -23 is pretty extreme in my opinion, but if it works for you, go for it.
This. But I don't worry about the faders being at unity like a lot of people do. Meaning some mixers like to have the faders at unity when bringing up the item level to their particular range so they can keep the faders at unity. Apparently it's easier to dial there than if you pulled the fader down to -20 or something.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffsounds View Post
some mixers like to have the faders at unity when bringing up the item level to their particular range so they can keep the faders at unity.
There are so many use cases, it's hard to tell what anyone's doing, but this is exactly how I do it -- if I recorded the tracks myself, everything at unity is going to sound pretty much like whatever it is because it was set up that way through the volume in room, pre-amp gain, etc before it hit the DAW.

If I didn't record the tracks, I'll usually adjust the item volumes to workable-with-headroom at unity though I'm not too precious about what that is, and in both cases all those faders are going to move around.

But then in other cases you might have tracks that are limited pretty hard already or otherwise lacking dynamic range, so that's a completely different thing.

Really depends on the material
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:27 AM   #14
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...-23 is pretty extreme in my opinion...
I have noticed that -23 LUFS is quite close to -18 dbFS. I use this normalizing function all the time as well.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:54 AM   #15
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I have noticed that -23 LUFS is quite close to -18 dbFS. I use this normalizing function all the time as well.
I wasn't paying close enough attention and had just noticed this...I've been busted.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:18 AM   #16
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Ha! Reset my clock though .... None of home studio projects as extensive or critical as most of yours but try to stay current. Had not made this 'basic' comparison/association. THX!
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:16 AM   #17
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I have noticed that -23 LUFS is quite close to -18 dbFS. I use this normalizing function all the time as well.
Just out of pure geekiness, I just did a few comparisons. There is consistently about 7db-9db difference between the 2 settings. Either works as long as a person is aware of this.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43 View Post
Just out of pure geekiness, I just did a few comparisons. There is consistently about 7db-9db difference between the 2 settings. Either works as long as a person is aware of this.
So - 25 to -27 LUFS using Youlean Loudness Meter or TBProAudio dpMeter II?

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Old 05-18-2017, 11:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Just out of pure geekiness, I just did a few comparisons. There is consistently about 7db-9db difference between the 2 settings. Either works as long as a person is aware of this.
What I rather meant was that for my workflow it is ok to relly on -23 LUFS. When I get tracks to mix, I put Hornet's Analog Stage on each track and normalize each item to -23 LUFS. Then I put all drums -6dB lower and that's it. I do not use Analog Stages's auto gain.

The advantage of using SWS's -23 LUFS command over RMS is that LUFS thing have gate and does not count in silent areas.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:40 AM   #20
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So - 25 to -27 LUFS using Youlean Loudness Meter or TBProAudio dpMeter II?
I am not sure what you are asking.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:41 AM   #21
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What I rather meant was that for my workflow it is ok to relly on -23 LUFS. When I get tracks to mix, I put Hornet's Analog Stage on each track and normalize each item to -23 LUFS. Then I put all drums -6dB lower and that's it. I do not use Analog Stages's auto gain.

The advantage of using SWS's -23 LUFS command over RMS is that LUFS thing have gate and does not count in silent areas.
I assumed something like that...But in case someone mistakenly interpreted it as "they are the same", I wanted to clarify.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:46 AM   #22
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I have noticed that -23 LUFS is quite close to -18 dbFS. I use this normalizing function all the time as well.
Good to hear someone else does~!
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Old 05-27-2017, 10:00 AM   #23
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40% off sale this weekend~! USD $3.46 - Can't beat that for a low, low risk factor~!
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:27 PM   #24
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Even though [on sale] it costs a measly 3 1/2 bucks, I already see that it's a better addition to my library of go-to plugins than the AutoGainStage JSFX. It's def lighter on the CPU and even though it requires remixing your levels, it doesn't destroy the music altogether~! Def worth taking advantage of this weekend...
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:43 AM   #25
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I have the Hornet plug and generally don't need it as I am pretty careful about not tracking too hot. I stick to the -18db / 0VU guide. BUT.....in the past I didn't. So I'm just remixing an old project for fun, to see if I can improve the final thing - I hope so! And then I recorded far too hot, though my Akai DPS 16 was pretty tolerant and produced a nice kinda coloured in a nice way sound. But the tracks are hot as toast so the Hornet manages the raw tracks down so they play nice with any plugins I use in the mix. So far I'm very happy with it - very quick and easy. I have their AnalogStage which does something similar plus adds desk emulation type functions which I haven't done much more than experiment with, but I will on a few tracks where it might be useful.

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Old 07-04-2017, 03:02 AM   #26
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One advantage of the hornet plug ins (VU and LU) is that it allows you to set a digital max.
Using SWS -23 Lufs on live drums has not worked so well for me. An already loud snare, as an example, was boosted something like 9 dB..
when using Hornets plugins its really handy to set a digital max and the desired target level and be sure that it will never exceed the digital max that has been chosen.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:26 PM   #27
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Using SWS -23 Lufs on live drums has not worked so well for me. An already loud snare, as an example, was boosted something like 9 dB.
This works for steady singnals because of how LUFS(I) is calculated. I usually put drums 6 dB or so lower manually after normalised with this function.
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Old 07-05-2017, 06:12 AM   #28
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I use the Hornet plug on tracks, when they were maybe recorded too hot. It's true they shouldn't be, but if you screwed up when tracking it's useful. I wouldn't use LUFS at track level - it's intended for calculating the average volume of a full mix and is roughly equivalent to RMS. I aim for -14 - -16 LUFS for masters. Works for me.
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