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Old 07-17-2008, 03:16 PM   #1
357mag
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Default Do any of you guys put the drums down first?

Since I'm a guitarist, it seems more natural for me to lay the guitar track down first. I mean the guitar track contains the main theme, the main riffs, and all the chord progressions. These are the things that make up a song. So to my way of thinking, I would want to start a new project by laying down the guitar track first, then add the bass line, and then finish by adding the drums.

But one guy on another site said he thought it would be better and I could establish a better "groove" by laying down the drums first. But I don't really understand how I could do this. The drums don't contain melodic themes and riffs like the guitar does.

If I was to put the drums down first, how do I go about doing it? I will be using Addictive Drums. So do I go into AD and then start adding patterns to my song while at the same time keeping the guitar line playing in my head, so what is going through my head is guiding me while I am picking out the drum patterns? Is that how I would do it?

Then there is this "lay down a scratch guitar track" approach. But I don't really understand the logic of that, because the scratch track is the exact same thing as the final guitar track. The riffs are the same, the chord progressions are the same, etc.
If I lay down a scratch guitar track first, then use that to guide me to add the drums, then after the drums are in, I imagine I would delete the scratch track and then re-record the guitar track again. Does that make sense? Why record the guitar track twice, when both the scratch track and the final guitar track are the exact same thing anyway?

If you can give me tips on how to add the drums first, I'd be willing to try it if the recording will turn out better as a result. But like everything on the internet, it's probably just a matter of opinion.

Last edited by 357mag; 07-17-2008 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:31 PM   #2
Captain Damage
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I'm a guitar player and I always put some kind of drums down first. It may be a carefully written and realized drum part or just a raw click to help keep things in time so I can align to the grid. More likely, I'll start with something in between, like a basic 4-bar backbeat (looped). As the song becomes flesh I'll replace those basic drums one section at a time with the "real" drum parts.

I can't really help you with AD since I use Reason for drum and synth sequencing. I export the drum (and/or synth) parts as wave files, import them to Reaper and lay down my guitar and bass tracks
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:46 PM   #3
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+1 to drums first.

9 out of 10 times, I don't know how the song will turn out, until I've played around a bit. So, I load a groove from EZD and play away. But, the times where I have a distinct guitar part in my head, I may just lay a straight 4/4 beat down, because I can't stand the sound of the click track! I just thinks it's more helpful to keep my playing in time - but that's IMO.

AD should have a "groove library" or something along those lines - you could sift through them and pick one that's close to the final result you're looking to achieve, and then drag the MIDI file right to the drum track. That's how I usually do it.

To each their own though - if you find that you're more inspired to lay down guitar first - go for it! There's no set way to do things - your imagination is your only limit, really.

Good luck!
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:48 PM   #4
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+1 to drums first, with bass if there's room and a scratch of everything else submixed into a single channel.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:52 PM   #5
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+1 for drums first.
I work similar to Chris_P_Critter, I generaly make 3 or 4 one bar beats in the midi editor, main feel, something for chorous and a couple fills etc.
These are simple but they have to suit the basic feel / groove of the song, then just loop them to the sections you need and put down your guitar track to this.
Doing this helps with the whole feel of the song as well as keeping me in time so if i want a to record a real drummer later he has solid timing to work with.
Either way ( using AD or real drummer ) at least your guitar track is down in time and to the feel you want.It also makes editing far easier because you can work to the grid and everything stays solid.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:54 PM   #6
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So do I go into AD and start selecting patterns that seem to fit the song while my guitar part is going through my head?
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:07 PM   #7
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357-
Capt & Critter have it right, because nowadays it's possible to just grab a drum sequence (loop,sample,machine, whatever way works for you.) and play away. It gives something with more "realism" than a regular click track, and usually the more "basic" like they said 3-4 bar backbeat with your idea of the feel of the song, the better, as it doesn't distract or throw you off if there's a fill in the wrong place. So to answer you last post yeah that's a start.
As far as the "scratch" track thing, that was the norm technique back in the day when analog individual multi-tracking was done so the drummer had a guide to keep his place for fills and solo lengths and stuff. Primarily I believe, to save time and money. Just a quick live runthru on the guitar so the drums and sometimes bass too, were tight to the song structure. Now with all this wonderful technology it's so easy (for a person playing a instrument) to throw somekinda guide down to follow. The drummer (live person) is still kinda screwed tho, aside from playing to a click, or unless they know the song better than inside out it's still hardest for them to record alone without some sort of guide.
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:24 PM   #8
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Am I the only one who simply CANNOT play to a click track?
I've been playing guitar for 15 years and can stay locked in time with the simplest of drum beats, but you give me a click track and I might as well turn it off.

I realize some may argue a click track IS the simplest of drum beats, but those same people would probably say I'm FAR from 'locked in time'... =)
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:42 PM   #9
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One thing to help you play to a click is to make sure it is a high enough rate. eg if the song is at 120bpm, make the click 240bpm (not 120) with appropriate accents, high enough in the mix, so it doesn't get hidden by transient in what you're playing. All the in-between clicks will help you know when your mental metronome is out before the beat comes (by which time its too late)
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:15 PM   #10
357mag
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Well I guess I'll try adding the drums first. This is really gonna feel strange. My audiophile friend who also does recording told me to be sure that I have my metronome set at the tempo that I want the song to be at before I start adding drums.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:42 AM   #11
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I have a small collection of basic midi drim files that I use to have a drumtrack first. I later replace the basic rythm with the 'real' drumtrack after I have the structure of the song down.
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:15 AM   #12
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357, give it a try. Sure it'll feel strange at first since you're not used to working that way, but I think you'll see teh advantages pretty quickly. Rather than thinking of a rock song as a bunch of guitar riffs strung together, think of it (abstractly) as similar to a story with characters and environments. Sure, guitar is a big part of it, your central character if you will. But stories are driven by the interaction of the main character with the supporting characters and the environment. (for further abstraction, I think of the beat as describing the environment)

Don't just use Reaper as a place to dump your guitar riffs. Use it as a composition and arranging tool. It's a workshop where you build your songs.
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:09 AM   #13
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Here's one other sugg. laydown a few bars of your Rhythm part guit. only and match the tempo with that, using the metronome to get it as close as possible. That way you don't go in a put a beat at 120 bpm or 160 bpm and hear it while your playing and it sounds/feels like it's rushed or dragging a bit only to find you were playing it at 127 or 154. Make sure you let the song dictate the tempo not some random number.
and Capt points out another benie of Reaper (DAW) aside from just recording "finished" tracks, it's easy enough to test out ideas without having to record each individually. lay down a basic riff idea, and you can slice and dice here and there to move the solo add a riff here or there, change the tempo, whatever and experiment then when you've got it tweaked perfect, record the whole thing using the "new and improved" arrangement.
the other thing, in the end if your songs have tempo changes, time changes, ritards or other special sections you might want to lay down a "scratch" track so when you throw the drums in they'll change appropriately so you're not trying to play 3/4 over 4/4 or fight with a driving four on the floor beat to add a slower "feel" part.
Okay...a couple other sugg's
Cheers,
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodswinger View Post
Make sure you let the song dictate the tempo not some random number.
and Capt points out another benie of Reaper (DAW) aside from just recording "finished" tracks, it's easy enough to test out ideas without having to record each individually. lay down a basic riff idea, and you can slice and dice here and there to move the solo add a riff here or there, change the tempo, whatever and experiment then when you've got it tweaked perfect, record the whole thing using the "new and improved" arrangement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Damage View Post
Don't just use Reaper as a place to dump your guitar riffs. Use it as a composition and arranging tool. It's a workshop where you build your songs.
+1

Sorry in advance for the novel below, but...

Great points here too. I usually set up the drum loop, play my guitar with it, change the BPM to the best rate for what I am playing, and play (and play, and play) until I have something I like (I usually JUST do the verse to chorus transition to start).

When I am in the initial composition stages of a song, I cut and paste (and drag and drop, and stretch, and manipulate, change, etc.) the verse and chorus pieces I have as the base of the song, until I have the arrangement I am looking for. Keep in mind - I am not overly concerned about how it sounds per se, rather; I am more concerned with arrangement at this point.

Once I have that set - I start fine tuning the drum parts (a fill here, a cymbal there, etc.).

Once the drums are set, and the initial riffage and structure of the song are down; I have a set drum track with the groove I am looking for, and an arrangement I am happy with. Then I will re-record all of the parts so they're perfectly in time and the transitions aren't so drastic (not all sliced and diced, stretched, etc), etc.

I find doing things this way is much better, because I am able to perform the "final" version much better, and with more "feeling" than simply to a "tick".

It's a really time consuming process sometimes depending on the nature of the song, but I think the slow approach is best, because then you're sure to end up with a final product that you aren't listening to in a week saying "Duh... I should have done this, that and the other thing".

But, that's my style - give recording to drums a shot.

I am a guitar player too, and I find that it's much easier, and you're able to pull more feeling into your performance than simply playing to a "tick. tick. tick. TICK. tick. tick. tick. TICK." (I tell you - after a few hours of listening to that tick while I am tracking, I start to develop facial ticks!)

Good luck!

PS - I editted this response about 200 times, because of all the thoughts that surged to me at once - really, your imagination is your only limit! Enjoy, and I hope some of this helps you!

PPS - Post the song when you're done!

Last edited by Chris_P_Critter; 07-18-2008 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 07-18-2008, 06:23 AM   #15
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"(I tell you - after a few hours of listening to that tick while I am tracking, I start to develop facial ticks!)"

yeah and tourettes.
I had to get an Alesis (SR16 IIRC) to stop the tick tick tick, from turning into sh*t sh*t sh*t. hahaha
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:19 AM   #16
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I too am a guitar player.

My first track is whatever i feel like putting down first - there are no rules and if there were I'd break them.

I might make a loop of some tracks over 2 - 4 bars, or I might play the whole thing through on guitar, or I might build a percussion loop to play alongside. very occasionally I have the whole thing planned out in my head and just input to a click track.

It depends whether I have the song already written or not I suppose, if so I usually set the metronome or put a kick drum and snare loop in a mid track and record my vocal with guitar as a guide. Then I know where all the verses start and end and I can set regions and build it part by part, eventually deleting the guide because It was hardly worth keeping anyway.

I don't put the drums down first hardly ever, because I don't write songs with the drums first - for me the drums have to fit the guitar parts - not the other way round, and I don't have guitar parts set in stone, so it's always organic, sometimes it ends up totally different to how it started

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Old 07-18-2008, 12:12 PM   #17
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Another guitar player here. I usually put down a drum track first. I am another one who cannot play with a click track. The drum track is often a "scaffold" that I eventually delete, or modify completely. Usually I keep the beat simple and set it up so that it easy to keep up with where 1 is. But sometimes I will spend quite a bit of time setting up the "scaffold" drum track because a catchy drum sequence can often inspire me to do more interesting rhythmic guitar things relative to the drum beat.

T
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:42 PM   #18
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Ahh, doubling the tempo might just be the trick I'm looking for...
I generally just throw a basic 4/4 midi track into EZD and loop it endlessly until I have a general direction, but for some reason I'd feel more 'pro' if I was using a click track. (is that crazy? maybe.)
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:46 PM   #19
357mag
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I have the exact arrangement already worked out for both my songs, so I don't anticipate changing the structure as I'm recording.

I know how you feel Ted. I may lay down a scratch guitar track first to use as a guide when I put the drums in.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:56 AM   #20
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As someone stated above, there are no hard and fast rules for what to lay down first.

Personally (being a one-man band), I use REAPER as if it were a band. Just as a band may rehearse a song many many times to refine it before going into studio to record it, I record parts of a song many many times to see how all the tracks fit together before laying down the final tracks.

First a guitar scratch track to capture the structure of the song. Then add some MIDI drums. Whoops -- sounds like it needs a slight tempo change as it moves into each chorus to liven things up, and perhaps a few slight variations in tempo through out the song to make it sound "human". So now I need a new guitar part, since the timing of the original is off (I generally don't like to time-stretch my tracks). Then lay down a bass line. Wow, the really cool riff in the bass line doesn't go well with that flat-5/sharp-11 chord in the guitar, but I love the bass line -- time to re-record the guitar yet again to change the chord to fit the bass line better. Etc.

It may seem like a waste of time, but it actually helps the song evolve into something better, just as rehearsing with bandmates would do if I had a band. I think you'll hardly ever find a really good band in which the guitarist comes in and says "Hi guys, I recorded a guitar track for a new song. I'm not going to change the guitar part around at all, so you need to fit your stuff to what I've already recorded." Why should you treat yourself that way?

So do what seems natural to you in order to get the best feel, vibe, and sound that you are looking for.
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Last edited by lunker; 07-21-2008 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:27 PM   #21
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generally I record some guitar riffs to a click track, then put on midi drums and piece the song together, then add the other instruments. After I am satisfied with a songs structure, and all of the elements are there, I'll go back and replace the midi drums with live drums. It's tedious having to re-record drum parts.
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