Old 07-29-2008, 09:08 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post

I always end up wiping the installs after a while thought, because there's very few things that work right with it out-the-box; don't have the patience to spend hours trying to get something to work, only to find out I've broken something else in the doing.
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
Is it enough for me to go to an OS that reminds me of a mixture of Dos6 and win95?
Sounds like it's been a while since you've tried out a Linux distro then!

Linux certainly needn't look like Win95!

Check out these comparisons of Ubuntu vs M$ Vista:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdxGf...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uE...eature=related

OR these videos of Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron with Compiz Fusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB3Mc...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pspDM...eature=related

or Compiz Sphere desktop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oSEL...eature=related

or Compiz Fusion Cylinder Desktop with Atlantis2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxXBD...eature=related

Or even this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX5fV...eature=related

Yowza!

The Wubi installer that I mentioned earlier is here:

http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php

This will allow you to (very quickly and easily) install Ubuntu in a multi-boot config from within M$ Windows, without a bunch of faffing about.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:16 PM   #82
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Why you should avoid Linux for now:

Linux is just not ready for audio.Maybe in a year (or two) it will be great,but not right now.

#1: The graphics card drivers and Xorg/X/MESA need a lot of work to be finally stable,feature-rich and fast as their Windows counterparts.2D performance is a joke,especially with newer nVidia cards.Modern ATI cards perform better with the 2D stuff,but even then the 2D performance is a fraction of what we experience under Windows.ATI proprietary Linux drivers also have stability issues.Moreover,NVIDIA and ATI drivers have issues with multiple monitors,high-resolution displays and screen tearing that we don't see in Windows.

The good news is this will change for the better in the near future.Kudos to ATI/AMD for opening up their drivers.We'll see some radical improvements in the next couple of months.I hope nVidia will do the same pretty soon.


#2: The sound drivers (ALSA and OSS) are still a joke.
They're too limited and don't support even half of the features (of most soundcards/audio devices) we use to have in Windows.
Most 24-bit soundcards are limited to 16-bit or 48kHz only.Onboard HD laptop audio has a lot of problems needs a lot of work to be useful.Firewire device support is seriously lacking.

#3: WINE needs a lot of improvement,especially with the 2D GUI/graphics performance and redraw issues/corruption when resizing windows.

#4: Low latency performance is still better with an optimized Windows XP,even when using a non-native unoptimized driver like ASIO4ALL.


But for everything else (besides gaming and audio production),Linux is definitely the better OS.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:26 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by DuX View Post
It's like it was made for total retards, man. [or maybe total retards made the system?]
Cheers!
My sentiments exactly,
it's not that it was made by retards for retards though. hehe
More so, for retards (test groups Linux developers can't afford).

Different target audiences.

Windows = they want your grandma to be able to use it.
(other than server08 it's actually a "pro" OS)

Windows is made by techs for users
UNIX is made by techs for techs

We should always have both extremes
and some can balance in the middle.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:38 PM   #84
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Lack of hardware drivers. All of the audio gear I have works perfectly on XP. The only audio device I have that works perfectly on Linux is an onboard VIA chipset. Audio Manufacturers, generally speaking, aren't releasing drivers for Linux.
seems like these days, and going forward, it would be wisest to by all the gear when it's at it's end of life (generation wise). only by then do things seem to work properly together.

So by all the P3 gear when when everyone is buying P4.
It's all half the price, and works twice as well -hehe
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
For me, it's partly the rebel in me taunting me to mess about with this, partly because there is a few program which are Linux only, like Cinerella, which I really want to try out and partly out of curiosity.

I always end up wiping the installs after a while thought, because there's very few things that work right with it out-the-box; don't have the patience to spend hours trying to get something to work, only to find out I've broken something else in the doing.
I also am really trying to get Cinelerra running (as well as Ardour/Rosegarden and their ilk), and since there's no Windows port as yet, I'm testing various methods for running Linux under windows. So far I've used andLinux(a hair disorganized for a newcomer), Ulteo (the presentation is on point, but it's hell trying to install software on thething). I'm about to try Topologilinux here momentarily, followed by a Wubi Ubuntu install and a detailed coLinux setup (which, if it worksout, would be the best possible setup, because I could dual boot and run Linux directly, or I could run any of my Linux apps straight from Windows). I'll let you know how it works out.
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Old 07-30-2008, 04:33 AM   #86
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Interesting read, all around. From my point of view I just can say my few tryings to start with Linux ended abruptly. And it was, of course, my fault.

summary
Would I have had the slightest idea how long I would mess around with problems to get my default setup working, ironing out bugs and a lot of mistakes by me - I would not have had any reason not to give Linux another try.

bugs and funny theories of our times

I understand Schwa who at KVR said people wrote too unclear bug-reports. True, me included of course. Makes bug-fixing worse.
Then, from another point of view (and a bit funny to write this in this forum as Reaper is so wonderfully bug-free compared to most others, and new releases are working releases) - how many times have Windows- users or Mac - users get "kind of" beta-software, and the users pay for being "paying beta-testers".

....about platforms in funny times......ignore this if you don't like university debates
A ton of software, Windows or early OSX included, came with lots and loads of bugs because the platforms were sold before being tested inside out. In more cases than admitted by the companies the thought was - *let the customer pay, and then do the job for us!*

Lots of those threads like ours end in funny platform-wars over the internet. Some are surely worth that some future scientist after the hard times of postmodernist nonsense-debates would think about what made people fight about something like that? So many senseless debates "macs are way cool" or "only Windows can..." and stuff like that (ever heard of the "contrasex"-theory from a Derrida-scholar at universities, postmodern cultural sciences? It's funny, if you got some spare time read about it, might be a good read while asking yourself why this bug is there or that ;-).
The lady who invented this funny theory even went to a face-changing-surgeons and spent many thousands Euros only to be able to say afterwards --> "even my face isn't authentic, it's in-authentic!“. The „contrasexual manifesto“ is her book. A lot of pages are down now, there was a rumour about that in universities for years, pure fashion, and that changes fast, it seems in times of indifference. So the Dildo was first, so to say.
Yes, professor Preciado, dildos were first, and of course body cosmetic surgeons. Yes. In fact this is the problem of our time, dildo and biopolitics. Who cares for windows or Linux?
And the male genital is just a replica of a Dildo, of course (no word about females though, and what was first there;-)). It's all about in-scening, a performance, a text in a text in a text in a - yes, - but am I allowed now to go back to Linux?
No?
Excuse me.
I would like to, even if your theory which is your theory and completely belongs to you will change the world like you claim, thank you. By the way, there still are the poor who don't have tons of money to let their faces being "re-inscened" to, errm, "prove" in-authenticity". (a loud shout)
- Yes I know, you don't care about the poor, Mrs. Preciado, as the whole world is all about contrasex, yes, but am I allowed - (a shout) - anyway, Mrs. Preciado, i want to go back to Linux, yes I am very rude, so "phallogocentric" as you claim. Yes, I'll read about it, but for now - - - )

an example: times spent fixing bugs instead of trying Linux

I remember the times when EnergyXT2 came out. I was an enthusiastic XT1 - user that worked a bit for free for the developer and the community, so this is not thought to be stupid bashing. Anyway, everybody who happened to like XT2 and the times over at KVR might remember the extremely stupid times where a - sadly enough - very very unstable new version of the host, not even including a big amount of features we had in the V1 - version, came out. XT2. Bug-reports in hundreds flooded in, fixes were not just sometimes causing worse bugs, and after some months the last bit of patience was exhausted and the userbase saw a nearly 90% switch (quite a lot of the old XT1-user are now here, by the way).
This is just an extreme example, and not that fair maybe as the developer changed his coding language from EXT1 to XT2. But EXT1-features are still missing, something I never heard of before, and the userbase was used - for a free update, mind, no money was charged by the developer - as beta-testers. Windows and OSX cost money and were - at best - beta-platforms given out.
And like usual in our times, bug-reporters behaved well. We didn't force the companies who gave out those bad-working early Vista- or OSX - platforms to take them back and give us the money back. Now all of those run fairly stable in the meantime. So beta-tests at last proved to be successful.

Enjoying beta-testing here, for 3 weeks

A personal bug-feast: I had about 3 weeks of ugly problems with Vista before SP1 (couldn't find a cheap XP-laptop) with NI vstis always de-activating themselves. Thus I had to beg and beg for a new "challenge response" reactivation every 2 days. Terrible, you started a song, boing!!! Demo mode again, idea gone, and so on...
NI didn't give me anything for 3 weeks of extreme beta-testing. (maybe a chaos-suite would have been possible at that time, or recording the noises you make while throwing your new laptop on the walls and singing "f*** challenge response and f*** syncrosoft-I-don't-use-too, as they have a c/r-system in it as well, and my configuration would have made syncrosoft-synths unuseable too with that Vista/"NI" - bug).
No thanks from NI of course, even though they forced me to go on with beta-testing after 2 weeks and me getting really tired of it. But the tests proved to be successful. For NI who had no clue and gave zero help, just wrote I should go on testing. Time spent: about 60 hours, including many phone-calls to HP and microsoft, mails, etc. All that time would have been fine for making music, or learning Linux.


conclusion 1: throwing it all away

The "make music full time" approach. I could tell my friend who is a wizard on many instruments that I give up. That would mean selling all precious VSTis in case they can be sold, and spend all of my time learning the piano so that I can play that Schumann toccata opus 7 aged 89. I had lost many possibilities and could join him in playing difficult parts of music, while now he gets better and better - whereas I just know more about computers.

Okay, I could do this without deleting Reaper, and in my case Orion, but that lets the door open. No musician in the world past and gone would have dealt with those weekly annoyances in former times, apart from the happy few in old times having e.g. a huge modular system in their house that constantly failed to work.

the guitar with one and a half strings
The friend without PC for music would stare in astonishment at me if I told him "this or that feature is in now, I am happy, the Kontakt2 bug is gone!". He always answers, "I wouldn't buy the guitar had it just 2 strings and a half pickup and nearly no neck, but the company said they'd deliver it within two years").


conclusion 2: using Linux?

Might be the better way probably . Means spending hours after hours learning to setup a working system instead of making music.

Maybe in the end we all won't admit how many nonsense we did as users with our Macs and Windows. (I can very well understand that it is pleasure for technically interested people to test all possible workhorses, or for the real coding-artists to build their own! In fact without them we were lost). But if I had counted the hours spent with Win98SE and onwards, I would be surely capable of setting up Linux right with the help of friends!!


As there are just train-crashes, not the reverse...

Errm, so I maybe should give it another go! But after spending so many nights finding out something like (example of last weekend) my really well working novation nocturn can't be used with Bigtick Rhino2 in Reaper for now, or that Orion doesn't load all NI-products with the "automapped" version - so I can't use Reaktor in Orion with the controller...--> followed by the the normal procedure: write to the support, get help, find the next bug, write to the support, get friendly help....
After all this in 100 parts - I just want to make MUSIC.

--> (so why do you write this lenghty post instead, fool )

I suspect this might be another reason for quite a few not to give the surely easier Linux now a next try. „We had too much trouble already, I won't start with something that will take time, for sure, to work“.
But it is not a valid argument - next bugs, whichever ones, will be around the corner, not so many in Reaper-land, but even here it can't be avoided with 1000s of different PCs and Macs as Reaper grows. (take the m-audio-card-bug in 2.40, reapaired really within hours, but how should such a bug or a similar one be avoided? Impossible, as long as the musical dictator wouldn't show up to tell all of us to use exactly the same configuration with the same machine on the same platform.)

conversation in the pub next door.

- Now that does mean you use Windoze and want to give Linux another try after getting some music finished, after many weeks trying to get your toys working? You know that it might be hard work again, do you?
- That sums it up, John. (laughs a wee bit foolishly)

(both have a glass of their favourite drug, and vanish for at least a few days to make music;-))
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:34 AM   #87
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and once more.
my dream.
a reaper specific linux distro with native reaper 3mb tucked
inside for a total 50 mb footprint. no emulations etc.
clik on the reaper icon and the OS plus reaper is installed
faster than you can make a cuppa tea.
lets call it ..
ReaLinux....or ReapLinux.
i can see the marketing blurb now...lol.
"a great leap forward for musicians". "only 50 mb footprint".
"its freedom man, freedom to create."
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:08 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by scottdru View Post
Sounds like it's been a while since you've tried out a Linux distro then!

Linux certainly needn't look like Win95!
All of this does look cool, no question there. I was referring more to the use of Linux and the capability and look of the bundled applications, especially in the way you have to memorize and use cryptic command in an unknown language every time you want to do something a bit more involved than typing text in OpenOffice.
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Old 07-30-2008, 01:49 PM   #89
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I use Linux everyday, all day, for my job. Been like that for years and years. In fact, I started using Linux more than 15 years go, when you had to install it using floppies. I have written software for Linux, and it has been distributed worldwide. So, I am what you could call "an expert".

Having said that, when I want to make music, guess what?? You guessed right: I switch to the dark side.

Linux isn't just ready for a lots of things, not to mention audio. And then focusing on audio... Few boards supported is the first problem. And then if you have your board supported, you have to go and install a host of utilities to make it work... And then you have ALSA, OSS, Pulse, etc. and etc.

Right now whenever I boot, Ubuntu sometimes switches my main mixer to one output of my SB that is not in use. And when I want to change the level of my USB headset, left and right channles get "unlinked", different levels on each ear! For my headset!! How stupid is that?

And how do you attract to this mess all the good developers for VST that are outhere on the MS land???

So, no... Linux is not ready.

For the future... If Linux gets the sound right, if somehow manages to make a transition path for VST developers... Then things could get really nice. We could, for instance, have custom Linux distributions specially tailored for DAW. Sorta what there is right now but done right. Imagine your Linux box booting to REAPER, and no docks, no menus, no transparencies or anything else wasting resources... Just REAPER and some filemanager to work with your music...

But we can only dream right now.

aladeaire

DISCLAIMER: I might be a bit behind current development on many Linux areas, since I am pretty specialized these days...
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:21 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
especially in the way you have to memorize and use cryptic command in an unknown language every time you want to do something a bit more involved than typing text in OpenOffice.
Agreed. Clearly, Linux will need to go beyond this and add the kind of "ease of use" that M$ has in order to be accepted into the mainstream.

The VAST majority of users (both pro and consumer) DO NOT want to memorise a computer language to be able to use their computer as a tool.

Far too many people (even people with a goodly amount of intelligence) have a difficult enough time using their own native langugage to communicate effectively, let alone having to memorise a cryptic programming language!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aladeaire
We could, for instance, have custom Linux distributions specially tailored for DAW. Sorta what there is right now but done right. Imagine your Linux box booting to REAPER, and no docks, no menus, no transparencies or anything else wasting resources... Just REAPER and some filemanager to work with your music...
THIS, I think, is more likely to be the way forward for the music industry. A tailored/tailorable OS that will basically run on just about anything, without the average user having to fiddle about under the hood.

Perhaps folks who need additional customisation would be willing to pay technicians who are experts with the operating systems to do additional customising if they are unable/unwilling to learn the inner workings of the OS for themselves -- especially if they weren't paying through the nose for the OS and being forced into costly and unnecessary upgrade paths in order to reasonably keep current for compatibility issues.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:36 PM   #91
out
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Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
and once more.
my dream.
a reaper specific linux distro with native reaper 3mb tucked
inside for a total 50 mb footprint. no emulations etc.
clik on the reaper icon and the OS plus reaper is installed
faster than you can make a cuppa tea.
lets call it ..
ReaLinux....or ReapLinux.
i can see the marketing blurb now...lol.
"a great leap forward for musicians". "only 50 mb footprint".
"its freedom man, freedom to create."
Or, you could turn "Rea" around and get "LineaR"
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:36 PM   #92
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Hmm...I dunno what you guys are referring to, but the last time I checked out a Linux distro it had plenty of stuff you could just click on, without needing any "cryptic commands". (BTW, all that double-click does for you is execute that "cryptic command" for you...)
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:38 PM   #93
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Has anyone here benchmarked Reaper's performance in Ubuntu vs XP?

I know there are allot of variables there, but it would be nice to see.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:46 PM   #94
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Hmm...I dunno what you guys are referring to, but the last time I checked out a Linux distro it had plenty of stuff you could just click on, without needing any "cryptic commands".
Try to install a driver in Ubuntu... Or even a simple program. In Window: double click the little iconic figure, done.

Unbuntu...well, took me two complete evening trying to figure out how to install the driver for my video card (available and downloaded from ATI). Finally gave up in frustration, uninstalled the whole shebang and never looked at it again.

Quote:
(BTW, all that double-click does for you is execute that "cryptic command" for you...)
Which is awfully nice.
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:00 PM   #95
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Look... I am a programmer, so I know what happens...

Programmers expect everybody to think like them, just because it is sooo easy... for programmers...

They do not see that we just do not want to deal with the OS. We want to use it. Being an electronic musician means, in the first place, being a musician, not an electronics technician, never mind a computer technician...

aladeaire
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:06 PM   #96
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Yeah, like operating a car where you do need to know what the pedals do and where to put oil and gas, but you don't need to know the complete engine disassembly procedure and internal tolerance just to drive it around. Why they don't hire mechanical engineer to write the operating manual.

It's a fine line between customization capability and ease of use, a balance which Win XP does beautifully IMO; Vista went over the line with it's "made-for-dumbass" approach, while Linux is progressing but still far from being there.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:58 PM   #97
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Try to install a driver in Ubuntu... Or even a simple program. In Window: double click the little iconic figure, done.

Unbuntu...well, took me two complete evening trying to figure out how to install the driver for my video card (available and downloaded from ATI). Finally gave up in frustration, uninstalled the whole shebang and never looked at it again.
There's graphical front-ends for apt-get. All the click-click you like, and you never have to type "apt-get install xxxxx".

Sounds to me like your driver problem is more ATI's fault than Linux - you'd think that if they took the time to write a driver they could package it with an installer script, no?
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:02 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by aladeaire View Post
Look... I am a programmer, so I know what happens...

Programmers expect everybody to think like them, just because it is sooo easy... for programmers...

They do not see that we just do not want to deal with the OS. We want to use it. Being an electronic musician means, in the first place, being a musician, not an electronics technician, never mind a computer technician...

aladeaire
And yet, this is also a shortcoming of Windows, isn't it? Having to go & shut off various unneeded services, disable default eye candy, & do all the various tweaks one has to do just to get Windows to perform at its best...the only real difference being whether you have to run commands with a terminal or a mouse.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:36 PM   #99
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Funny, my ATI on-board laptop driver was auto-installed. That sounds odd. Also, I've installed a ton of packages (which is an awesome way to be able to get software onto a system, by the way) via Synaptic and didn't know how to even open the terminal until a few minutes ago. Now I'm listening to awful demos in LMMS.

I'm very pleased with a lot of the stuff that i'm seeing in Ubuntu since I installed it today. This wineasio business is going to be a bitch to install, though, ugh.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:58 AM   #100
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Well, I broke down again (helped by insomnia) and installed Ubuntu. Gotta admit, it looked cool...for the 3 minutes it actually worked. This time it kindly offered to install the ATI driver for me, which it did, then informed me I had to reboot. Unfortunately, the shutdown process worked flawlessly, so much so that it never booted again. Can't win 'em all I guess.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:15 AM   #101
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Default My experiences as a Linux Newb

I have been dabbling about once a year for several years with Linux and never really been able to get to grips with it. Never managed to set up an internet connection, etc.
I downloaded Ubuntu 8.04 a couple of weeks ago and stuck it in a laptop.
It installed all by itself and found every single piece of hardware in the laptop, then configured the onboard wireless and prompted me to input the security settings for my router, then just plain worked.
It also connected to my network as soon as I plugged an RJ45 cable in!

Now I agree this is a long way from a working Audio platform, but I am now convinced that we are atlast arriving at a stage where Linux is very much usable by a non-techie.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:15 AM   #102
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Hmm...I dunno what you guys are referring to, but the last time I checked out a Linux distro it had plenty of stuff you could just click on, without needing any "cryptic commands". (BTW, all that double-click does for you is execute that "cryptic command" for you...)
perhaps you havent tried setting up a network, or installing things?
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:49 AM   #103
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I have been dabbling about once a year for several years with Linux and never really been able to get to grips with it. Never managed to set up an internet connection, etc.
I downloaded Ubuntu 8.04 a couple of weeks ago and stuck it in a laptop.
It installed all by itself and found every single piece of hardware in the laptop, then configured the onboard wireless and prompted me to input the security settings for my router, then just plain worked.
It also connected to my network as soon as I plugged an RJ45 cable in!

Now I agree this is a long way from a working Audio platform, but I am now convinced that we are atlast arriving at a stage where Linux is very much usable by a non-techie.
And maybe this is where perceptions could do with a an update too.
There's been a lot of good reports recently about Ubuntu generic, and the latest build seems to be pretty stable, and 'User Friendly.'

For any dedicated task, like an audio/midi workstation, there is going to be challenges, whatever the OS, and i could relate many stories of woe trying to get both win and mac to work efficiently, or getting 4 boxes running a big orchestral template with gigastudio, all playing nicely with each other.

The limitations of any OS soon become apparent when stressed beyond the generic install, and expection.

If you have a good rig that works, be it Win or Mac, then i'd say stick with it. Making music is the end game here, and more important than flag waving for one brand over another.
For those who want to build a specialised audio/midi workstation in linux, then you're going to have to exercise the brain a little, and expect the same learning curve you'd expect if you were finetuning or tweaking another OS. But even this has been made easier with specialist distros like UbuntuStudio, and JAD.

The upside for me with Linux (and i write this on a strictly personal basis) is there are less limits to deal with. And for one who relies on big numbers for ports, etc.. that suits me fine, and is way ahead of anything i could do with win, or mac, without some serious juggling. I don't do any of this anymore in linux, and that leaves more time for something else.

We can wax all day about HW Manufacturers being linux unfriendly, and personally, i won't give up keeping the diplomatic pressure on them to review their stance. But there's a lot more support these days for the usual suspects, and a brief google in the Alsa soundcard matrix, for example, will show the list is steadily growing longer. Sadly, firewire manufacturers still seem to be, in the main, paranoid about their precious babies, and Pieter Palmers and the FFADO team have made big strides in progress, but much work remains to be done. TC Electronics are just one recent example of a change in the wind, as they've jumped on board, and are co-operating with the FFADO team in a joint partnership to build linux drivers for their gear. (So if you're considering building a linux box in the future, and want a firewire audio solution, these chaps are the good guys. check the FFADO site for progress.)

You could have all the drivers you wanted tommorrow, if this situation changed, but it takes two to tango.

Sorry to hear some of you are still battling unsuccessfully with a linux install. I would hope linux progress continues to the point that you'll no longer have this type of challenge.

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Old 07-31-2008, 04:39 AM   #104
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Well, I broke down again (helped by insomnia) and installed Ubuntu. Gotta admit, it looked cool...for the 3 minutes it actually worked. This time it kindly offered to install the ATI driver for me, which it did, then informed me I had to reboot. Unfortunately, the shutdown process worked flawlessly, so much so that it never booted again. Can't win 'em all I guess.
Question. How did you install? I installed yesterday with Wubi, and had a similar experience. So I uninstalled (which was really easy). and, rather than do the download + install process, I found an iso to pair with Wubi, and tried it again. This time it worked flawlessly, and I've been fooling with Linux ever since.

By the way, I've installed a crapload of stuff and set up my network with absolute ease and no terminal usage. The only reason it took me so long to get it set up was because I couldn't remember my router key because I haven't entered it in in so long.

It really would be nice if there was a distro that handled the installation and setup of all the Linux audio stuff, though...that's a big convoluted mess as it is. (and the funny thing is I still want to use Jack in Windows, once I figure out how it works back home in Linux.)

Oh, one more thing. I still intend to attempt to pair this Linux install with coLinux, but I got a perfectly functional TogolopiLinux installation working earlier yesterday. It's really easy except for the network setup part, which is moderately easy if you can read and follow directions. You can run a full Slackware installation right on top of Windows. I'm not sure whether it supports running with a windows X server rather than its VNC based setup, but it works, AND you can still use it as a dual boot system. The only reason I quit on it was because I was an idiot and locked myself out of the system by forgetting my username and password immediately after setting it up. I haven't had a lot of sleep.

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Old 07-31-2008, 04:55 AM   #105
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To answer the original question. I HATE MICROSOFT. I hate bloatware that forever upgrades into beta version for people to buy and pay for.

When I have run Linux on my machine it is refreshing, fast, and FREE! And thanks to Ubuntu and a few other distos WAY easy to use and now add and remove products.

The only thing that is holding me on Win XP is Reaper and two VST plug ins at this point.

When I heard they were stopping Win XP I was really pissed. They finally got a stable decent op system (again) and will abandone it and the developers will follow them like lemmings and I will be forced one day to again upgrade all my hardware and software to "stay in the game" and keep up with the bloat ware. SCREW THEM! I tried to use a Vista machine and it made me want to puke.

I would suggest that Cockos make their own op system but it would most likley end up being Linux anyway.

I do admit XP works wel for me and I like it but it will not stay around forever.

I played with a few demos of other "picture friednly" recording softwares that were simple starter packs. Mixkraft and Sequel and I relized the graphics are just eating up space and CPU power. IMO Repeaper is getting the point that all the harware things will be solved and messaged out and then the layers of graphics will be added esp. with new faster machines. With that said I like how Reaper has left it open to the users to decide how they want Reaper to look. IF YOU WOULD JUST LET US EDIT THAT DAMN TOOL BAR! AHHHH!!! LOL!!

You reach the point esp with audio that you can do all you need to do. At some point to upgrade it just becomes bloatware and pretty pictures.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:23 AM   #106
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Question. How did you install?
I installed from the ISO to a clean, empty HD. It installed fine, but all the eye candy was turned off because it didn't have a driver for my 3D card. Installing the driver (which came from it's own repository)completely messed it up, it never booted again. Oh, and my soundcard didn't work either, nor did my TV card.

I must have an hardware configuration that linux is allergic to, but considering Win '98, then 2000 and then XP worked flawlessly on it, it doesn't give me great confidence in Linux.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:42 AM   #107
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I must have an hardware configuration that linux is allergic to, but considering Win '98, then 2000 and then XP worked flawlessly on it, it doesn't give me great confidence in Linux.
Pretty much sums up the whole situation right there. I tried linux twice in the last year - BOTH packages failed to correctly install my wireless network adapter (the wireless network would endlessly attempt to connect, but never succeed, regardless of settings). Checked various forums, and troubleshooting, as always with linux, involved a 3 page long laundry list of console commands to type in. I know DOS very well, but linux command line arguments fly over my head most of the time.


Not only that, but RAID support was a joke. I tried Jacklab, it did, indeed find my RAID array, and allowed me to resize a partition to make another for the installation (I thought that was awesome, by the way), too bad the installation failed near the end, and I ended up with a borked partition.
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:41 AM   #108
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And yet, this is also a shortcoming of Windows, isn't it? Having to go & shut off various unneeded services, disable default eye candy, & do all the various tweaks one has to do just to get Windows to perform at its best...the only real difference being whether you have to run commands with a terminal or a mouse.
But of course. I didn't say that Windows was great or anything. In fact, I hate it and that's why I use Linux throughout the day.

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Old 07-31-2008, 01:33 PM   #109
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I'd like to see a "Mojave Experiment" on Linux, that'd be good for a chuckle.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:12 AM   #110
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I'd thought I'd chime in on this one. If anyone wants to try ubuntu but don't want to mess with partitions and boot loaders you could try wubi. http://wubi-installer.org/
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:13 AM   #111
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Really dont understand where you guy`s problems are originating with Ubuntu, assuming you are trying Hardy Heron 89.04 from a recognised D/L mirror.
I /L`d it from a German mirror, burned the CD and stuck it in a lappy that neither XP Sp2 or Vista had managed to sort out.

I sat and watched, asmazed, as Unubtu quietly went about tis task.
Installed everything, including my network AND my wireless `net without a single hiccup and this was on a lousy E:Systems lappy with a faulty battery sense circuit amon other things.
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:09 AM   #112
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They finally got a stable decent op system (again) and will abandone it and the developers will follow them like lemmings and I will be forced one day to again upgrade all my hardware and software to "stay in the game" and keep up with the bloat ware. SCREW THEM!
to be perfectly fair, how many major changes has ubuntu or OSX gone through in the 7 years that XP has been around?

if there is *one* thing MS should get credit for, it is for having a long product lifecycle.

Don't get me wrong, MS isn't without its fault (nor is Apple)...but some people just come across as if ol Gates killed their gran or something.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:38 AM   #113
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Yeah, like operating a car where you do need to know what the pedals do and where to put oil and gas, but you don't need to know the complete engine disassembly procedure and internal tolerance just to drive it around. Why they don't hire mechanical engineer to write the operating manual.

It's a fine line between customization capability and ease of use, a balance which Win XP does beautifully IMO; Vista went over the line with it's "made-for-dumbass" approach, while Linux is progressing but still far from being there.
Yet more ignorant drivel. You haven't even used Vista. It works perfectly. And it is not for dumbasses. I use it professionally every day to produce music. It never crashed once, it is fast if you have a decent pc. And it is pretty. Ha! What next, George 3 on an ICL mainframe with a teletype? And a punched card reader?
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Old 08-02-2008, 02:07 PM   #114
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Yet more ignorant drivel. You haven't even used Vista. It works perfectly. And it is not for dumbasses. I use it professionally every day to produce music. It never crashed once, it is fast if you have a decent pc. And it is pretty. Ha! What next, George 3 on an ICL mainframe with a teletype? And a punched card reader?
I was gonna go into a long discourse on why I removed Vista from my laptop after careful testing, but considering the tone of that post, I'll cut it short: Go fuck yourself.
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:01 PM   #115
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My aren`t we all tetchy!

Come in at 2.30 am expecting a nice relaxed read and find the Attack of the Mutant Devon Psycho!

What brought that on?

Normalement c`est les Anglais qui sont gentil et les Quebecoises qui sont.... un peu abrasif?
Desole, et je t`offre les excuses de toute la reste de l`Angleterre.
le mec est evidamment entierement con.
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:36 PM   #116
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I just can't wait for this Windows Mojave to come out!
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:14 PM   #117
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OEM installs of Vista are quite a f-up. That would most likely be the reason why laptops with Vista insalled run like crap. They add a lot of customisations and crap ware which kill the OS.

We got a Dell Laptop for my partner and Vista shat itself in a few weeks of use. Using a clean install disk and loading up x64 of Vista cured any ills.

Linux, I have had a on/off relationship with and for the desktop in a business situation, Linux is making huge strides. For specific applications be it Audio/Graphic Design or Gaming - alas not there yet. I hate the move Linux distros are making to Pulse Audio as an Audio Server instead of using what already is there and blitzes everything else on any platform since BeOS - Jack. They should have just made a 2 phase UI for Jack Server and use that for the underlying audio server for Linux. Instead RH has to re-invent and screw things up adding more confusion to the mix.

If and when I can run Reaper on Linux as a native app then I might reconsider using Linux again but also if and when Jack runs in User Space not Admin. That being said, I love how Linux can bring great features to the UI space using a lot less overhead and system resources. Vista and OS-X are pigs by comparison.

I am still waiting for HaikuOS to get somewhere. Nothing for me has come close to achieving the level of OS capability on simple near 10 year old computing hardware os BeOS did and HaikuOS is a modern recreation of that feat. I can only imagine what a modern version of BeOS could do with todays multi core CPU/GPU computing hardware. I can't wait to see how things turn out with Haiku and we should be seeing something Alpha/Beta by year end of which I'll definately be there. Not to mention, power without having to go under the UI hood and proper Plug and Play.

BTW, I like Gaming and that with GD is another reason I stick with Windows. DirectX 10 on Vista does bring new elements to the 3D plate of which these can be emulated in DirectX 9 but they only look the same in screen shots. Fluid motion kills it in DirectX 9 and makes DirectX 10 look much nicer. Funny that Vista has no inbuilt Audio Acceleration and relies on OpenAL instead.
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Old 08-03-2008, 05:48 AM   #118
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For specific applications be it Audio/Graphic Design or Gaming - alas [Linux is] not there yet. I hate the move Linux distros are making to Pulse Audio as an Audio Server instead of using what already is there and blitzes everything else on any platform since BeOS - Jack... I might reconsider using Linux again but also if and when Jack runs in User Space not Admin.
While I've sworn not to engage with this thread, I must respond to this error. Jack certainly does run in user space, you do not need to be the root admin to operate it.

And FWIW, I agree with you wholeheartedly re: PulseAudio. The server itself has some nice features (including a Jack sink), but I still think Jack would be a better choice for a distro sound server (or for the de facto sound server for Linux, period).
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Old 08-05-2008, 12:32 AM   #119
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While I've sworn not to engage with this thread, I must respond to this error. Jack certainly does run in user space, you do not need to be the root admin to operate it.

And FWIW, I agree with you wholeheartedly re: PulseAudio. The server itself has some nice features (including a Jack sink), but I still think Jack would be a better choice for a distro sound server (or for the de facto sound server for Linux, period).
Sorry to add to this but my reference to Jack in User space is more when trying to run Jack in Realtime. Or has been my experience with Arch Linux and Ubuntu64. Not to mention Ubuntu Realtime kernels and Nvidia don't play nice.
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Old 08-05-2008, 07:18 AM   #120
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Sorry to add to this but my reference to Jack in User space is more when trying to run Jack in Realtime. Or has been my experience with Arch Linux and Ubuntu64. Not to mention Ubuntu Realtime kernels and Nvidia don't play nice.
I run two realtime kernels here, one in JAD 1.0 (32-bit system, based on OpenSUSE) and one in 64 Studio (Debian-based, pure 64-bit system). Both machines also have nVidia cards (fanless 7600GS, with nVidia's drivers) and I've been using both boxes for music production consistently, with under 6ms stable latency as reported by Jack in realtime. All this as normal user, I never run as root unless I'm doing sysadmin duties. I got similar performance from these machines under Planet CCRMA (Fedora-based) and Demudi (another Debian system).

IMO, no newbie should muck around with a non-optimized system if they intend to run music and sound production software. 64 Studio and its brethren are engineered for low-latency performance, and these days I'm happy to let the maintainers do the heavy lifting.
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