Old 12-27-2007, 06:21 AM   #1
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Default Why Linux

This is a serious question and I really do want to know the answer: I see several posts where people are saying, "Everything works fine in XP" and then they put themselves through torture trying to get the same level of operability in Linux. Why? I got a copy of 64 Studio (32 bit version) with a magazine and I'm really tempted to give it a go simply because I'm an inveterate fiddler. Then I read the pain people suffer trying to get Reaper to work half as well as it does under their copy of Windows, and I think, "Wtf, why would you bother?"
There must be a reason for this. Someone please tell me before I lay out for a bigger hard drive.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:26 AM   #2
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I don't get it either. I hate microsoft as much as the next guy, and I've tried a few Linux distros over the past years, and every single time, after dealing with the incredible amounts of total bullshit just to install something, let alone the hours of figuring out how to get it running properly, I end up scrapping it and wondering why anyone would bother if they already own a copy of XP.

I think most people feel compelled to use linux for the same reason people feel compelled to climb Mt Everest: Because it's there. At least climbing Everest doesn't seem as nerdy
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:48 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by OldGeezer View Post
I don't get it either. I hate microsoft as much as the next guy, and I've tried a few Linux distros over the past years, and every single time, after dealing with the incredible amounts of total bullshit just to install something, let alone the hours of figuring out how to get it running properly, I end up scrapping it and wondering why anyone would bother if they already own a copy of XP.

I think most people feel compelled to use linux for the same reason people feel compelled to climb Mt Everest: Because it's there. At least climbing Everest doesn't seem as nerdy
Yes, I guess that's it. But actually I don't hate Microsoft. I think Bill Gates and his team have done fantastic things for the world in terms of getting us connected to each other, making knowledge available so easily, providing platforms for music (we wouldn't be Reapering without Windows ), art, literature, whatever, to be shared around the world. Bill's welcome to his billions, IMHO. Sure, there's the monopoly thing, but frankly, XP works well for me and I don't begrudge them their profits. They don't affect me. And of course, I have the choice of going to Mac or Linux if I wish. Like you, I've tried and really tried to scale the ramparts of Linux with umpteen distros. Every time I've fallen back, defeated like you by the sheer impossibility of doing even basic things without a struggle.
There, I've got it off my chest and feel better now. Thanks, OldGeezer!
So come on, Linux afficionados, tell us why. I'm still open to persuasion.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:52 AM   #4
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For me, it's partly the rebel in me taunting me to mess about with this, partly because there is a few program which are Linux only, like Cinerella, which I really want to try out and partly out of curiosity.

I always end up wiping the installs after a while thought, because there's very few things that work right with it out-the-box; don't have the patience to spend hours trying to get something to work, only to find out I've broken something else in the doing.
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:25 AM   #5
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How about: "Because it's an Open Source system". Without DRM, without Service Packs every 6 years, without authorisations, without many ugly stuff MS enforced upon us. I'm not a MS hater, but hey - if they hadn't do it, somebody else would, or we'd all have Linux or OS-X desktops, or maybe BeOS... who knows, but somehow feel it would be better that way. aaah, whatever.

Now that being said, I don't care what's doing the work in the background as long as Reaper is fullscreen, if it works stably and smoothly. It could have been better with some other system, but what the hell, it works.

But I can't understand those who install Vista and say: "it works" when everything was working nicely in XP, too, and far more stable and nag free. So if we're talking office and Internet browsing apps... man, there's not a single reason why somebody, or even whole businesses wouldn't use Linux for their OS of choice instead of, well, Vista for example . Office apps and browsers work very smooth in Linux and they can have everything they need, in OS-X even more. XP can be tamed, but the Vista one is just disgusting to me. Working in Vista feels like doing a quiz show, with MS asking questions.

It's like: You cautiously move your mouse to open "My computer"...

MS popup: Do you really want to open "My Computer"? It could harm your system.

Then you press: "yes"

MS popup: "Are you really absolutely sure you would like to open "My Computer"? You may damage the system files."

... and on and on...

I mean, I like quiz shows, but not with OS asking the questions. It's like it was made for total retards, man. [or maybe total retards made the system?]

Cheers!

Last edited by DuX; 12-27-2007 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:42 AM   #6
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Nice analogy Dux =)

I think there's a large section of the PC population that love to tinker, and change things around. Kinda like people that have to upgrade their car, soon after they've bought it. Things can be improved for MY use, to better fit MY needs. Some people will never do this, while some people can't stop doing this.

And often, people will get under the hood, and tinker, just because they can.

I hate the Linux difficulty, but love the 'I did it myself' type of mentality. Even if Linux Developers make installing things easy, it's still a rush to find the components you need, and install them yourself, and tweak them into submission.

Add that to the MS strong-arm 'take what I feed you, because it's what I say you need' mentality, and you see my reasons. I'm still not full on Linux, but I do have a workstation running RH, though my Audio box is XP Pro SP2. I do have a web dev box that's running RH9.

I also don't hate MS, and am behind their capitalist model, as it's what makes America what it is, but I don't believe it's always the perfect choice for my audio box. My home PC (kids, internet, etc) is MS XP Media Center, and is working great. I'll always keep it simple for the Home PC, but for audio, well, maybe not.

I strongly believe that my next Audio OS will be *nix, as I can't see myself ever going to the Vista camp. Whatever difficulties I run into, I will overcome, and make my system run smooth and strong. If others can do it, then I can as well (with help, i'm thinking).
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:43 AM   #7
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Oh, thank to DuX I remember another reason why I try Linux distro once in a while: I've seen and used Microsoft latest, that being Vista, and it's going in the total opposite direction to where I'd want the OS on my computer to go. I mean, it resolve none of the issues/reserve I had with XP, and then add a whole bunch of stuff I don't care for on top. Bleh.

Is it enough for me to go to an OS that reminds me of a mixture of Dos6 and win95? Not yet, for as long as I can run XP at least. But in the future, a definit maybe.
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:51 AM   #8
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Yes M$ is spending more time and effort in making sure DRM and their Windows Authentication work well than on the end user experience. Microsoft has become such a behemoth than they are now dictating what specs hardware should conform to. i see it as a danger because of microsofts non-competitive practices.

MAC and OSX is just the Steve Jobs Breakfast Club. the only thing keeping OSX from being a "REAL PLATFORM" now that they are using the same processors and chipsets as PC's is one little chip that says "i am a mac its ok to install OSX on me this idiots paid his membership dues". They are just not clever enough to support the vast array of software and hardware a "REAL" PC Can using windows, Linux, BSD, BEOS.

someone tried to tell me Macs were faster and smoother. alesson in physics is required i believe. same processor, same chipset, same memory capabilities, same clockrate, electrons can only move so fast. i have watched when MAC uses Benchmarks to prove they are faster. they will use a model that has extra DSP capabilities and then run tests with adobe filters using those dsp's then run it against a wounded off the shelf PC instead of a modders dream.

F no right click.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:41 AM   #9
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If the question is just about Reaper, or another specialized Windows app, then no, there's no compelling reason to switch to Linux.

But in general, there's a slow, steady pressure from both sides to switch to Linux. On one side is maturity of Linux - the better distro's are no longer as much of a hassle as before, the GUIs are friendly and efficient, and the most popular apps like Open-Office are good enough for business use. All this for free. On the other side, the cost of staying with the latest MS operating system and updating the Office suite are NOT trivial. Finally, there's the great unknown of Vista's many DRM hooks and traps, which may cause problems in future.

I'm not intending to upgrade to Vista. My current plan is to dedicate this 3-year-old Intel WinXP Pro box to audio and programming, and to use Linux on my next general-purpose PC.

It's my prediction that alot of the higher-end audio production systems, especially those that currently use a custom OS (like high-end digital consoles) will move to Linux over the next few years.

Last edited by kenn; 12-27-2007 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:56 AM   #10
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although it would inevitably set me back when i'd make a bad call and change some setting i didn't understand, i wish XP had a "bs free" zone

i can't stand wizards, i intensely dislike balloon notifications, i HATE the way windows deals with its networks.

alternately, i love the degree of customability through freeware applications.

linux i've never tried and wouldn't understands.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:02 AM   #11
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Well, I do hate MS. I mean, sure it's nice to have a common oS and have all the apps and games etc... we could want come out for it, and I'm no commie...I like capitalism (though I'm not crazy about the big marketing campaign that life is becoming..everything from seeing commercials on LCDs at the gas-pumps to answering the phone several times a week to hear a pre-recorded commercial from some sleazebag who won't even pay a human to annoy me). But there are lots of things to hate about MS.

I hate the DRM of course, and how they sneak more and more of it into updates. I'm not a crook, and I don't like being treated like one just because other people are. I especially hate formatting my hard-drive, entering my long serial number off my XP cd-sleeve, and then not only having to activate it online, but being told I've activated it too often and having to phone MS up and yell at them to give me my freakin activation code and calling them a bunch of a-holes and undoubtedly being a downer to the poor guy in India who's just trying to earn his minimum wage....etc...


I don't hate Vista yet, coz I don't own it as I refuse to pay for something I don't need, but from what I hear, I'm sure I will hate it if I'm ever forced to pay for it. What I do hate about Vista, however, is Microsoft's insistence on only releasing directX 10 for Vista (they still release updates for XP, but not DX updates, bastards) and trying to taunt all the gamers with promises of breathtaking graphics they'll never have until the fork over the cash for their newest bloated pig of an OS (though apparently even that has been hyped beyond reality).

I hate how I can't tell my own computer to use this IRQ on this piece of hardware, and that IRQ on that piece of hardware. The option to do so is there, but it's greyed out, because I'm presumably too much of an idiot to be trusted to do what I want with my own computer...and I don't feel like having to reinstall XP as a non-ACPI OS and disabling a bunch of modern features on my BIOS, or going through some kind of hacking procedure in order to do it.

Well, I could go on and on (and on and on), but suffice it to say, I hate MS. Sorry, but I just hate 'em.

That said, I have paid for XP, and everything runs fine on it, so I can't see myself going through the hassle of getting things to work on Linux, losing performance in the process (emulation always entails some loss of efficiency I've heard.

But the next machine I build for Reaper and whatever else, is going to have the copy of XP I already own on it. And since it'll be illegal for me to have it installed on two personal machines in my own home (bastards), and since I intend for the good machine NOT to be hooked up to the internet, THEN it will make perfect sense for my current doorstop of a PC to have Linux installed simply for surfing the web. I was actually impressed by how painless it was to install Ubuntu and hook up to the internet almost instantly. And I imagine it is alot safer to surf the net on a machine that has no ActiveX or other such petrie-dishes for viruses built in. For strictly surfing the net, I admit it prolly makes more sense to use linux. For running Reaper? If you don't own XP (or Vista) and can't afford it, then I guess it makes sense too (though I don't envy you). But if you do own XP, I can see how it could be fun, but I can't imagine Linux emulating XP for Reaper and 3rd party FX/Synths/Samplers running nearly as efficiently as XP...that is, I can't see how it could be worth it from a purely practical point of view. Again...I think it's mostly a climbing Mt Everest kind of thing, strictly a challenge.

Last edited by OldGeezer; 12-27-2007 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenn View Post
I'm not intending to upgrade to Vista. My current plan is to dedicate this 3-year-old Intel WinXP Pro box to audio and programming, and to use Linux on my next general-purpose PC.

It's my prediction that alot of the higher-end audio production systems, especially those that currently use a custom OS (like high-end digital consoles) will move to Linux over the next few years.
Exactly the same here and ditto to everything else you've said.

Nice post OldGeezer. Enjoyed reading it. Very down to earth - tells how things really are with the majority of computer users.

Cheers!

Last edited by DuX; 12-27-2007 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:21 AM   #13
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Activation. I hate hate hate it. I really try hard to keep my software legal but I have the fear that MS is going to send someone over to break my knees if I install something in a VM, or if I replace a motherboard. In the near future, I probably won't ever have Windows running on physical hardware, given the great advances in virtualization.

Tweakability. The same OS is on my PVR (MythTV) a desktop I have (Debian) and my new tablet (Nokia n800). I can even set up a web server on my tablet, if I want to do web development on the go (or make a simple app in something like PHP). I can schedule and run video encoding jobs from anywhere, using only the command line. DRM libraries are not in the way. In the Reaper world, you can mix and match linux audio apps with Reaper, using JACK.

Running a 64-bit OS is not a huge roadblock to using your system.

Stability. Yeah though XP is rock solid, my Linux installations are slightly more so.

"Installing programs" is in no way difficult, unless you're doing it wrong. If you have a recent distribution, you bring up an application list, choose to install, and it downloads, installs and integrates it. If you really want to compile some stuff from source, go ahead, but the bleeding edge isn't supposed to be comfortable, you know?

If you're a tweaker, you should have Linux installed. If you ever ask that "Hey, I wonder if I could..." question, yeah you probably can.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
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MAC and OSX is just the Steve Jobs Breakfast Club. the only thing keeping OSX from being a "REAL PLATFORM" now that they are using the same processors and chipsets as PC's is one little chip that says "i am a mac its ok to install OSX on me this idiots paid his membership dues". They are just not clever enough to support the vast array of software and hardware a "REAL" PC Can using windows, Linux, BSD, BEOS.

someone tried to tell me Macs were faster and smoother. alesson in physics is required i believe. same processor, same chipset, same memory capabilities, same clockrate, electrons can only move so fast. i have watched when MAC uses Benchmarks to prove they are faster. they will use a model that has extra DSP capabilities and then run tests with adobe filters using those dsp's then run it against a wounded off the shelf PC instead of a modders dream.

F no right click.
Hah yeah a vast array of BeOS software, that's rich. You should also check out http://fink.sf.net because there's not a huge difference between Linux and Mac these days. Do you also use OS/2, by any chance?

You can right click on a Mac. It's super easy. Just press down on the right mouse button. I do it all the time.

I hate when Mac ignorant people flame Macs.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:55 AM   #15
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I love the idea of Linux and would love to be using it, but at the end of the day, what it has to offer me isn't enough to justify the time I would need to invest to become competent with it.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:14 PM   #16
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I would love if I could do everything on Linux for all the obvious advantages of Linux... more secure, lighter weight, free, etc. But some folks are born tinkerers and will try to figure it out where as some of us will weigh the options and stick with XP. It is like saying why bother blowing up your barn trying to get internal combustion to work when I have a perfectly good horse? It is simply the pursuit of the better mouse trap. Someone has got to do it and I am glad there are people willing to put in the time. Personally, I won't but I certainly appreciate those that do.
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:31 PM   #17
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Ditto... I'll use Linux when I can just press the big button and GO!

D - non-tinkerer... at least where OS's are concerned.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo View Post
Hah yeah a vast array of BeOS software, that's rich. You should also check out http://fink.sf.net because there's not a huge difference between Linux and Mac these days. Do you also use OS/2, by any chance?

You can right click on a Mac. It's super easy. Just press down on the right mouse button. I do it all the time.

I hate when Mac ignorant people flame Macs.
haven't seen anybody with a two button mouse on their macs yet. they usually use what is sent out of the box.Q. why do they keep shipping with that f'ed up mouse? A. when when steve jobs gets an f'ed up idea they have to follow him like lemmings.

i had os/2. before 95 i think. it was the first 32 bit OS to hit the market. the only advantage was i got to surf the internet with a 32 bit web browser on sprynet or compuserve a few months before anyone else.

i also have an atari falcon (in a box now) so i know of what i speak when i say a "club computer". i had to order mags and software from u.k. and germany. at that time '93 the falcon was $1295. the quadro series apples with similar hardware were double that.

beos is a part of the plethora of software and OS's currently and previously available on the PC "Platform".

i know mac OSX has BSD at the core. took till then to get multi tasking.

i am just saying if they were a "real" company they would be licensing it on the PC "PLATFORM". and OEM's would be building systems using the motherboards and hard ware they choice.

till then they are fake company dangled out there to prove that Microsoft is not a monopoly. when they aren't even really in the same market.

oh and i started on the apple II.
then to commador64.

i am not saying macs suck. they just need to come out of the dictatorial rule of heir furor and enter into the open market. come out of the closet so to speak. then they will blossom into their true potential.
to become the support headache windows can be.

i think of the platforms like this:

mac closed hardware closed OS
windows open hardware closed OS
linux open hardware open OS
BSD open hardware Berkley's deal
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
This is a serious question and I really do want to know the answer: I see several posts where people are saying, "Everything works fine in XP" and then they put themselves through torture trying to get the same level of operability in Linux. Why? I got a copy of 64 Studio (32 bit version) with a magazine and I'm really tempted to give it a go simply because I'm an inveterate fiddler. Then I read the pain people suffer trying to get Reaper to work half as well as it does under their copy of Windows, and I think, "Wtf, why would you bother?"
There must be a reason for this. Someone please tell me before I lay out for a bigger hard drive.
As a long-term Linux user my initial response is to tell you to forget about it. Neither you nor Linux are ready for each other.

For others, it's just the right thing. Personally I suffered none of the "torture" when setting up Reaper to run under Wine. If you're referring to Alex Stone's lengthy odyssey, bear in mind that Alex is trying other things besides Reaper, and he has a rather complex system in mind.

Also, it appears that for Alex, at least, it's working better than "half as well". Me, I don't run Windows at all and have no basis for comparison. However, I can tell you that Reaper runs stable under Wine with a reported latency of 2 to 6 msecs. If that's "half as well", it's still okay for my purposes.

I'm not trying to slag you. I sincerely believe that people should stick to what works for them *until it doesn't work for them anymore*. Almost everything about Microsoft stopped working for me in the mid 1990s.

All I can say is, if Windows is working fine for you, why bother changing ? At the end of the day only the music matters.

EOF
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
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haven't seen anybody with a two button mouse on their macs yet. they usually use what is sent out of the box.Q. why do they keep shipping with that f'ed up mouse? A. when when steve jobs gets an f'ed up idea they have to follow him like lemmings.
I haven't seen anyone WITHOUT a two button mouse on a mac. Except maybe macbooks.

Oh you do know they ship with a two button mouse now, right? Out of the box?

http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/

Please ignore the facts if you want to maintain your UB3R-1337 image, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
i had os/2. before 95 i think. it was the first 32 bit OS to hit the market. the only advantage was i got to surf the internet with a 32 bit web browser on sprynet or compuserve a few months before anyone else.
Uh, no thanks. I had OS/2 too, the browser was late and pathetic. I liked OS/2 very much for everything else, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
beos is a part of the plethora of software and OS's currently and previously available on the PC "Platform".
So is the Mac. Drop the quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
i know mac OSX has BSD at the core. took till then to get multi tasking.
Hey! A valid criticism! Why are we criticizing Apple for getting something right, though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
i am just saying if they were a "real" company they would be licensing it on the PC "PLATFORM". and OEM's would be building systems using the motherboards and hard ware they choice.
Except they're making a lot of money NOT doing that. The last time they tried that, they almost went out of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
oh and i started on the apple II.
then to commador64.
Vic-20. Been there, programmed that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
i am not saying macs suck. they just need to come out of the dictatorial rule of heir furor and enter into the open market. come out of the closet so to speak. then they will blossom into their true potential.
to become the support headache windows can be.
Heh. I love the last line, as much as I hate the rest.

I don't think they need to do anything else than exactly what they're doing. It's an alternative platform, just accept that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotylee View Post
mac closed hardware closed OS
windows open hardware closed OS
linux open hardware open OS
BSD open hardware Berkley's deal
Open hardware isn't, though. Have you installed Linux on a Radeon machine these days? How about using Firewire? Even nVidia cards are so-so until you install a closed driver.

Listen. We can have an intelligent conversation. Drop the rhetoric and we'll be fine. You might learn something and discover that Macs are actually a pretty decent Unix workstation.
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:39 PM   #21
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"At the end of the day only the music matters."

Exactly. I could spend my time trying to create a better system to create and capture music, or I could spend that time just trying to create better music. Nothing wrong with someone choosing the former, but my time would be better spent on the latter.
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:50 PM   #22
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The trifecta for baseline DAW functionality:

1. Drivers
2. Plug-ins
3. Point-and-click, plug-and-play setup and operation, soup to nuts.

As long as this stuff is shaky or questionable, Linux is a no-go for most working studios except maybe as a science project.

I would *love* to ditch Windows for all the obvious functional reasons in terms of bloat, licensing, security, stability, etc. But at this point it seems like a Linux DAW is like a walking dog-- the wonder is not that it does it well, but that it does it at all.

I'd love to hear that I'm wrong on this, and there is a fully-functional, fully-capable, easy way to run Reaper (or similar) on Linux with all of (or even a lot of) the usual commercial plugins, drivers, and add-ons.

But it's not worth it to me if Linux requires a crippled list of plugins or hardware, or if it requires complicated or finicky setup or configuration that might require occasionally flipping back to windows for some operations. I'd rather just stick with one thing that works, even if it's inferior.

Cheers.
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:10 PM   #23
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At this point I think this thread has become more of a platform for "Why I don't/won't use Linux" instead of its original intention of discovering why some people do, so I'm done here.
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:21 PM   #24
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I've always been intrigued by the idea that a base Linux OS is really not much more than the "core components". It's sort of like if you could successfully host current Mac OSX or Windows XP DAW programs using something similar to Mac system 7.1 or DOS, and the apps would look and function exactly the same as they do now.

The downside was that to get that sort of Linux environment happening, you actually had to know a lot more about it than you would if you went with one of the new bloatware distros. I struggled with setting up a couple machines like that a few years ago, running Slackware or something and it drove me nuts. Maybe there's a more newbie friendly variant now on the floppy/zip drive sized Linux systems.

The idea of running Linux under a three Gig install with all the fancy themes and colorful icons baffles the heck out of me. We've got that as default on PC & Mac now. Seems like something you'd look forward to escaping from.

Take Care,

George
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Old 12-27-2007, 04:53 PM   #25
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Vista did piss me off at first....but then i found a few online optimization articles and Vista runs just as smooth as XP! Seems like Vista is the same as XP with more crap piled into it..But when you unpile the crap its no difference(DAW wise)The security shit DuX was talkin bout used to piss me off. Then i came to a rather obvious conclusion. Turn it off. Thats all you do turn all the excess shit off. Now if i already had XP i wouldnt uninstall it just for Vista. I use Vista becuase thats what consumer computers now come with. With that being said, I actually like Vista better than XP, a few of the new features i dont know how i dealt without.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:23 PM   #26
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i know mac OSX has BSD at the core. took till then to get multi tasking.
Not quite. They had true multi-tasking at least as far back as System 6 with Multi-Finder (1988/89...actually, before that, but I believe that's when it became the default); it only went preemptive with the BSD core in OSX.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:38 PM   #27
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OK, in the spirit of the original question; If I did use Linux it would be because I could tailor it to the specific needs at hand.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:39 PM   #28
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At this point I think this thread has become more of a platform for "Why I don't/won't use Linux" instead of its original intention of discovering why some people do, so I'm done here.
It's also become the "I hate Microsoft whine off fest" as well.

Move along, nothing to see here . . . .
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:07 PM   #29
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Yeah, but for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. Whenever someone states they hate microsoft, Billy's Knerds in shining armor usually pipe up too.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:16 PM   #30
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" sure windows is easier than linux....just as taking a shit in your pants is easier than using the toilet"
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:21 PM   #31
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" sure windows is easier than linux....just as taking a shit in your pants is easier than using the toilet"

Lol...anyone who gets that offended over an OS needs a life. Deep breath buddy...deeeep breath...

When some people state their likes and dislikes over an OS, some just have to get all personal about it...yeesh!
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:39 PM   #32
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it WAS a joke.
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:52 PM   #33
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it WAS a joke.

Oh....never mind...lol.

I guess the quotation marks should've tipped me off. Well, one or two posters in this thread do seem to be getting teed off at the derogatory OS/MS comments.

Sorry man...if it's any consolation, I do feel like an idiot. (Oops)
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:22 PM   #34
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I gave linux a shot and had some of the familiar problems you hear about today. After spending quite a bit of time with it I just stuck with windows. I just have too many different things I need to do with ease (and here I mean OS ease, not user ease.)

I only mention it to address someone earlier saying how it's gotten better. I keep my eyes open for linux stuff and I see the same problems today that I saw when I gave it a shot...around 10 years ago.

It's a shame too, I love the 'idea' of linux.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:08 PM   #35
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Some interesting reading in here. (Woot, you DO have a sense of humour, lol.)

To keep it short. We get donkeys. That is, commercial OS' are designed for mainstream 'cover as much demographic ground as possible' use. That's ok, and the 'big two' do that with varying degrees of competence according to the user's requirements. The problem in the past and present, for me at least, is the bits i want to use aren't developed enough. Mainstreaming means doing a lot of stuff to a 'moderate' level, and none of it to a specific degree, unless one either has the skill to manipulate the os, or pay someone else to do it. (See Dux's thread for win streamlining.)

And from the start of desktop music production. there were varying degrees of success, all operating within a framework built by someone else, who had their own idea of what constituted 'ideal', according to their motivation, be it a grasp for market share, and/or profit. You only have to follow the sage of MIDI to realise that optimisation isn't always the end goal of maufacturers and developers. 8bit? 128 instruments in a bank? Who decided they were 'ideal' criteria? Manufacturers with, it seems, the consumer's wish for a bigger range of options slightly further down the list of priorities. But then they were working with the equipment of the time, and there were no certainties that Moore's Law was valid as an extrapolation for business investment decisions over a longer term.

And the same goes for OS's. We get a percentage of the total development, according to which marketable and saleable priority exists at the time. I've had a fairly good run with Vista, for example, and it's still 1 half of what is now a dual boot pc. But the Midi is still very average, and the crap you have to go through to get a half decent system is almost familiar, as it was with XP, 2000, etc. And MS have already said they're not developing midi further in win.
Ok. I get to make a decision at this point.
Continue to struggle with a lack of midi bandwidth, pre-defined and unchangable by the user, or try something else that gives a better chance of having an optimal rig, at least as optimal as possible. It was, i hasten to add, the same with mac, and my little laptop g4, as sturdy, reliable, and 'safe' as it is, suffered from the same 'percentage of development' blues as win. And still does. Why? Because we're, frankly, a tiny slice of the market, and simply don't carry enough collective oomph to bring about changes that suit us. We're up against Joe Public, for whom Blinky Bill, and Auntie Steve, can hire a graphics designer to 'tart' up often poorly written software, and flog em a near dud, because it's 'pretty and shiny' and 'looks cool.' A lot cheaper for a better return, than pulling their beloved OS's apart, and redesigning the audio/midi framework just for us chaps. There simply aren't enough of us to matter.

My sojourn into Linux stems from making a choice to optimise what i have, and use, on a daily basis. And i'm enjoying the journey. Why? Because i get to pick and choose how i want my system to perform according to my needs. I think Linux suffers to a certain degree, because it gained a rep as a geeks os environment, and certainly when i first gazed at it some years ago, i was bewildered and somewhat apprehensive about taking it on.
I didn't then, but have now, as it's changed a great deal, and it seems Linux dev's have collectively decided to streamline the process and maintenance of their chunk of the bigger Linux picture, as a decision to make linux more accessible to the basically skilled end user, who's been brought up on a diet of 'near enough is good enough' by the mainstream os providers.

A good decision, and as i've discovered in my ubuntustudio journey of discovery, the perception of linux as an eccentric's paradise is somewhat misplaced as it stands today.
As for half as well? Sorry, but i can't agree with that, quite the opposite. As i learn, and finesse the system, it's getting faster. And more reliable. The linuxsampler story is just one delightful discovery, and it runs all day, without complaint, or stutter, unlike its direct win counterpart, Gigasampler, for whom you needed a witch doctor, and burnt incense on a regular basis to keep it running, and doing what it advertised as its great feature, playing samples. This one programme, LS, as an essential part of my working day, has saved me considerable grief and frustration, and if i needed a day to get my head around compiling it, WITH flags optimised for my system, the time spent was more than worth it.
Again, a percentage decision, based on getting the best results i can with what i have. And that's really the best we can hope for. Getting a better percentage. There is no perfect daw, or os.

I didn't have to jump through hoops to install linux. Certainly not like a few years ago. And i only have the programmes i want to install, not those i have no choice in taking with both the current commercial os's. I get to tweak and finesse my system to a much greater, and more specific degree than i could before. My working method would most probably be unsuitable for many here, but, well, it suits me, and i'm enjoying that freedom of choice.

Wombat, i'm not sure what you mean by pain. I'm learning fast, making mistakes, and having big and small successes along the way. I'm sharing experiences, usually with enthusiasm and humour, and gaining a great deal of knowledge from those who i meet, converse with, and who are helping me along the way. Frankly, i didn't, and wouldn't, get the same buzz or enjoyment with win or mac.

"Gee man, you've got OSX 10.4 Tiger! Wicked. And you've got the same Widgets! just like MS Vista. Cool!"

Hehe, enlightening stuff.

It's not painful at all to learn, try, fail and eventually succeed, with a definite goal in sight. (and that's down to the user) Depends of your definition of pain i suppose. I started with Atari, owned a fairlight for a while, and worked my way through the poorly written crap that was most of the major daws before jumping off the ship a little while ago, and making do with what i had, because, at a daily working level, we didn't really gain much, once you got past the bells and whistles, and usually ended up paying more than the progs were worth, just to keep em running.
So this linux journey is one i've enjoyed and continue to enjoy, for the freedom of choice, and the knowledge i gain from the process. Everyone to their own, and i hold no nationalistic tendencies towards one os over another. I want one that works, reliably, and on which i can put just the programmes and working tools that i want, and not be forced to take some esoteric crap designed to cramp my style, restrict my music choices, or treat me like a mindless moron with it's arrogantly condescending never ending stream of boxes telling me 'are you sure you want to do this?' 'Are you really sure you want to do this?' 'Maybe you should reconsider, as you're a typical moron. Now are you REALLY sure you want to do this'

"F**k off. Yes i'm sure. Now open the bloody programme before i put an axe through you."

So it's not a problem using linux in it's current more user friendly state, quite the contrary. With just a little effort, the return has been considerable even at this early stage.

And importantly for me, as one who uses a lot of tracks, instrument articulations, etc., for the first time since i started using Daws and computers in general, I get to define how many midi/audio ports i want. Might seem trivial to some, but having the opportunity to setup a big template, lash everything together, and NOT have to think about compromises in balancing insufficient ports across a full orchestral spectrum is a huge part of why i'm getting right into linux. I can now define a port (midi/audio) for each instrument group/section, and not have to figure out how to share them. And i don't need third party software to do this. Jack, as an audio/midi server, does a great job of helping everything play together. If you only knew how big a part of a daily routine is taken up with juggling midi/audio resources in a big orchestral template, you'd appreciate why i'm so enthusiastic about this particular aspect.
Point and shoot, at last.

Percentages?

Linux for me.
An OS for adults.

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Old 12-27-2007, 11:05 PM   #36
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Alex,

I've found your "journey of discovery" an interesting read, but I note you decided to go the Wine route, where you're using Win OS apps.

Have you tried Ardour or Rosegarden?

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:18 PM   #37
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Very enjoyable read Alex. Bloody good finale .

btw. have you ever bothered trying some dedicated Linux distro for musicians, like Ubuntu Studio or Musix?

Thanks for a nice read, and cheers!

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Old 12-27-2007, 11:21 PM   #38
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Then I read the pain people suffer trying to get Reaper to work half as well as it does under their copy of Windows, and I think, "Wtf, why would you bother?"
Why I've tried Linux:
My motherboard went on permanent Christmas vacation today. As part of the installation of a new motherboard (and CPU because the current motherboards don't support my Socket 939 CPU anymore) I know I will have to go through the stupidity of calling someone to beg for authorisation of my legal copy of Windows, because M$ believe I must be pirating the software if I'm installing a new motherboard. I seriously resent being treated like a criminal by M$ when I own multiple legal copies of their software.

Why I'm not using Linux:
Lack of hardware drivers. All of the audio gear I have works perfectly on XP. The only audio device I have that works perfectly on Linux is an onboard VIA chipset. Audio Manufacturers, generally speaking, aren't releasing drivers for Linux.

My $30:2e:30:32.

Cheers,

Malcolm.

EDIT: To be fair to M$, I am happily amazed to report that, while I did have to re-activate XP after installing a new motherboard, CPU and DDR2 RAM, I did not have to call anybody this time. The re-activation worked first go over the Internet. Things have improved slightly.

Last edited by malcolmj; 12-30-2007 at 05:43 AM. Reason: M$ surprised me
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:25 PM   #39
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Alex,

I've found your "journey of discovery" an interesting read, but I note you decided to go the Wine route, where you're using Win OS apps.


Have you tried Ardour or Rosegarden?

Cheers,

Malcolm.
Malcolm, yes i have.
Paul Davis has done a fine job with Ardour, and it's come a long way since i first took a peek at it on mac/linux/fink some time ago. My biggest gripe with ardour is the layout. I find it...unweildy, and although there are quite a few options in the drop down menus, i find some of the choices of where they are a little confusing. I temper this with the fact i haven't devoted a lot of time learning the programme.

Rosegarden is a little problematic too. Chris and D.Michael Macintyre did a good job building what i still think is the first serious attempt at an audio/midi daw in linux. I think it needs an overhaul, and quite a bit more work put into the notation editor, personally.

I've been trying others, and mscore in particular looks fruitful and promising. You may know that mscore was originally the notation component in Muse sequencer, and Werner separated it out into a separate programme. A good move imho, as notation editors tend to be the forgotten children in daw development, and one only has to look at logic and cubase to realise they've been unchanged for a long time, and seem to be at the bottom of the priority list for devs.

I've been quite surprised at the progress being made in not just these two progs, but others in the linux realm.
So why do i use Reaper in wine?
Simplicity.
Look at every daw in the marketplace, and then look at the clean and simple lines of reaper. Everything's under the hood, so to speak,and there is considerable depth there. But for staring at day and night on a daily basis, it's easy to use, and not cluttered, given me more screen acreage for the music. I like that aspect of the programme a great deal, and as one who tends to use quite a few tracks as a matter of normal workflow, i can see everything in front of me, without being distracted by other stuff.
When i first started using Reaper, i tended to look for the same stuff as other Daws had, in the same spots. Quite natural really, as one gets used to a particular layout. but it didn't take me long to dump the old ways and get right into learning the unique 'flow' of Reaper's layout and construction. I've always been an advocate of less mouse and more actions, lol. So having the opportunity to setup KC's quickly, without having to wade through convoluted menus or windows to do this, suits me fine.
I say this with the greatest of respect to fellow users, no matter what your audio/midi weapon of choice is. Taking a big step back, and looking at the bigger picture, then devoting some serious time evaluating a new workflow, or consideration of a different way of doing things can be thoroughly enlightening. And you may find, as i did, that the old 'accepted' ways of doing things are in fact, slower and more cumbersome, in a detached, non 'nationalistic', perspective. I've often though that the commercial offerings we've had for some years have made things more complicated than they need to be, and taking a different path in both daw and operating system has only strengthened that view.

I think more than one linux daw dev (and for that matter, commercial daw devs), if they were so inclined, would do well to use Reaper for a while, and understand just how easy it is to use, compared to other, more 'busy' offerings.
I wrote in the post above about percentages. And although there are parts of Reaper i'm waiting enthusiastically to see develop further, I've made the effort to incorporate it into a linux/wine hybrid workflow, because i get a high daily percentage of satisfaction using it. The unique efforts i've taken to try and make this happen are, imho, worth it for a longer term peace of mind, and enjoyment.

And from a visual perspective, most commercial daws have everything 'on top' more or less, geared towards heavy mouse use with, what it seems to me is, a confirmation that the user wants everything staring at him at once, no further than a mouse click away. That may be fine for some, but i am delighted that i can learn KC's, and use them, with practise, instinctively, so the interface between me and the box is clean, and not cluttered up with stuff i might or might not use. Boring i know, but useful for writing at speed, and seeing the whole ensemble.
I know some chaps like that 'NASA'look on the screen, a bit like huge desks, with thousands of knobs and switches. (Were these designed in such a way to make the user feel they were more powerful, or intelligent?) The bright lights, the busy 'scientific' perspective, the myriad of colours, and shapes. Sort of like digital 'toys for boys', lol.
I don't, and prefer a clean design, that stays out of the way of the writing process, and lets me get my old fashioned classical elevator music down, without having to wear a spacesuit or a borg headset, just to 'feel' right. Everyone to their own, i guess.

All this is, of course, my personal perspective, and should be read as such.

Alex.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:27 PM   #40
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Very enjoyable read Alex. Bloody good finale .

btw. have you ever bothered trying some dedicated Linux distro for musicians, like Ubuntu Studio or Musix?

Thanks for a nice read, and cheers!
Dux, i'm typing this from my Ubuntustudio install,lol. Stable, fast, and setup entirely to my criteria.

The journey continues....!

Alex

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