Jan Ohlhorst is using Reaper. What a mastering studio!

[AndreiT]

I was looking on the new plugin OD DeEdger from the Tokyo Dawn Labs (I'm a big fan of their plugins) and I read that this plugin is made using this guy ideas.
Looking on his website pictures, I have seen Reaper DAW.

What a mastering studio he has!

http://www.finemastering.de

Sweet!

[Andywanders]

Oh... That guy.

[AndreiT]

Originally Posted by Andywanders

Oh... That guy.

My bad. I was so excited that I forgot to add the most important thing. His website.

I have corrected my post.

[Andywanders]

Originally Posted by AndreiT

My bad. I was so excited that I forgot to add the most important thing. His website.

I have corrected my post.

No worries. Thanks for the heads-up

[karumba]

Originally Posted by AndreiT

I was looking on the new plugin OD DeEdger from the Tokyo Dawn Labs (I'm a big fan of their plugins) and I read that this plugin is made using this guy ideas.
Looking on his website pictures, I have seen Reaper DAW.

What a mastering studio he has!

http://www.finemastering.de

Sweet!

wow...thanks!
i love reaper! using it since 2010 for mastering.

[AndreiT]

Originally Posted by karumba

wow...thanks!
i love reaper! using it since 2010 for mastering.

You're welcome! Your mastering studio looks stunning! That's my dream to have such a studio.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by karumba

wow...thanks!
i love reaper! using it since 2010 for mastering.

Hi Jan,

I also use REAPER for mastering but still prefer to use WaveLab for the final assembly steps of the process. I don't quite have the coding background to make REAPER into what WaveLab montage mode already is...and I also believe there are some really specific things WaveLab can do that REAPER cannot do, especially without some programmer-level coding. Anyway...

I have a different question though. Do you have a good solution to do this?:

Send an item to more than one stereo hardware output without any item FX (or track FX) being applied?

I like to have the ability to hear a totally unprocessed version of the song I'm working on with the press of a button on my Avocet remote.

To do this now, I have to make a duplicate track of all my source unmastered files and route that track to another digital output. I have a script to do this fairly quickly but it becomes a hassle if I have to replace the source file, or if i make any item or take level changes, I have to make sure to mirror them on the duplicated track.

I've had a few options presented to me but none of them work, or they create new problems.

I usually put a few item FX on each item before sending out to my hardware so the only solution I see is to put some kind of plugin first in the item FX that allows me to multiply the routing to more than one output without causing any latency issues...I use the FX blend knob a lot and I also remember an issue happening here with a suggested solution.

I've tried with plugin pin connectors but that either doesn't always copy/paste correctly to new items, or it causes other issues.

On the track itself, I have the audio sending to two stereo outputs so I can choose which of my two D/A converters feeds the analog gear, and on the way in I had a nice script made to toggle between my two A/D converter options. Very handy.

I think somehow we need a way to send an item to a hardware output that is free from any item or track FX.

Do you have any solutions? I prefer item FX because for a full album project, it's way less taxing on my CPU compared to having all songs on their own track w/track effects.

Now I just have one track for all the source files, and use item FX. Everything is great except this one issue.

Thanks for your time.

[EvilDragon]

Why not duplicate the items on a track that has no processing whatsoever, then sending that track to your other output, and disable master/parent send for that track? Then grouping the item duplicates to individual groups (so, group 1 for item 1 and its duplicate, group 2 for item 2 and its duplicate, etc.), so that any edits like fades, moving, etc. are carried over (loading item FX is not carried over for grouped items, so this will work just fine I think)?


EDIT: nevermind, just read this is something you're already doing... Eh. But with grouping of items you can at least duplicate item/take level edits (just make sure that "Selecting one item selects group" option is enabled)!

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Why not duplicate the items on a track that has no processing whatsoever, then sending that track to your other output, and disable master/parent send for that track? Then grouping the item duplicates to individual groups (so, group 1 for item 1 and its duplicate, group 2 for item 2 and its duplicate, etc.), so that any edits like fades, moving, etc. are carried over (loading item FX is not carried over for grouped items, so this will work just fine I think)?


EDIT: nevermind, just read this is something you're already doing... Eh. But with grouping of items you can at least duplicate item/take level edits (just make sure that "Selecting one item selects group" option is enabled)!

Thank for the advice. Fades are not really relevant because I print everything non-faded and then do any trimming and fades after the analog capture.

I have a shortcut/script to mirror my item level changes. If I hold certain keys while I increase or decrease the item/take gain, it's mirrored on the item below.

This isn't an extremely crucial request but it would save some time on some projects more than others if there was just a simple way to send an item to an alternate hardware output before any item FX or track FX.

My idea is a plugin that does nothing other than multiply the stereo input to additional outputs. I know this can be done with pin connections but it's a little bit tricky and last time I tried it, I ran into some issues with some plugins not working correctly when you copy and paste the FX chain to a new item.

I think something simpler and less likely to have issues is needed to do it right.

[EvilDragon]

You don't need a script to mirror your level changes, though. Grouped items will do that for you automatically.


By the way, why is not using track FX a requirement? It's totally possible to have it do what you want with a JSFX, I reckon.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

You don't need a script to mirror your level changes, though. Grouped items will do that for you automatically.


By the way, why is not using track FX a requirement? It's totally possible to have it do what you want with a JSFX, I reckon.

To me, holding a key while making any item/take changes is faster than grouping items for each new session. It's ingrained my head to just hold the right keys while doing increase/decrease item/take gain.

Each item needs it's own unique item FX chain, similar effects but different settings for each song/item. I'd rather not have a separate track for each song/item because when yo do that, you get a long stair step view and all the items must be small if you want to see them all.

I prefer to have all the items on one track so I can keep all the items fairly visible. Also, if I have track FX going for a 45 minute album, the CPU gets very high all the time. The option to only have the track FX tax my CPU when they are needed for playback/render doesn't work so well, at least last time I checked.

Either way, item FX is what I need for various reasons. I do use one track FX to dither to 24-bit before going analog but that just stays the same for every song of every session. Item FX is where the real work happens.

If I used only track FX, there is an easy option to make the hardware send PRE-FX but I really need to use item FX and not track FX.

Here are some pictures of a normal album master setup. No item FX have been applied yet. In the 2nd picture you see my duplicated track at the bottom.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/74goztf4xm...%20AM.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kisp5fvx27...%20AM.png?dl=0

I have scripts in place to do all this as fast as possible, I just want to avoid having to do it at all, especially because replacing a source file means also replacing the source file on the duplicated track.

It would just be cleaner and simpler to not have to use a duplicated track at all.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

If I used only track FX, there is an easy option to make the hardware send PRE-FX but I really need to use item FX and not track FX.

Sorry, I still don't understand. If you need to hear the unprocessed version of the song(s) on your second output, why is using track FX for that one simple additional routing a problem then? It's just routing, it won't take a shitload of your CPU. And you won't have problems when replacing source files - it's just work.

[DarkStar]

This JS FX plug-in will duplicate the audio:

desc:Duplicate audio from channels 1+2 to 3+4

@sample
spl2 = spl0;
spl3 = spl1;
// END

You can add this as the first Item FX on a 4 channel track, with channels 3+4 routed as an additional HW Output.

BUT the unaffected audio will only be routed if the FX's Output Pins 3+4 are connected. I cannot see a way around that. So close

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Sorry, I still don't understand. If you need to hear the unprocessed version of the song(s) on your second output, why is using track FX for that one simple additional routing a problem then? It's just routing, it won't take a shitload of your CPU.

I also don't understand. My goal is to have just one source track and one capture track in my session. Two tracks only.

I can route the source track adequately to my two stereo D/A units for further analog processing but routing at the track level includes all item FX, which I don't want to hear on my 3rd alternate/clean output. I want to hear the raw item. No FX, no analog processing. I want to send the item direct to a stereo output before any item FX.

So, to get a truly unprocessed version of the project, I duplicate the items on the source track to a dedicated track routed to the 3rd clean output. Scripts can do this fairly easily though ideally I would not need to make a duplicate of my source track just to get a raw/clean output of an item without FX.

This works fine but I would like to not manage that 2nd track for when items need to be replaced such as when the client needs to send me an adjusted or new mix of song.

If I use track FX, it affects all items on the track which I do not want. Each item needs it's own precise set of plugin settings. Track FX don't work unless I want to have a track for each item which as mentioned, can be a big CPU tax and also looks messy and makes the items small. I did this in Pro Tools and my first month of REAPER and do not plan on going back to that workflow. Using item FX is crucial.

If there was an option on hardware sends to be Pre-FX on tracks AND items, then it would be what I want, but right now the hardware send can only be PRE TRACK FX, item FX are included.

I appreciate the help but I think we're not getting anywhere.

[DarkStar]

Different approach: Action "Toggle all take FX bypass for selected items"

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

but routing at the track level includes all item FX

If you use input FX, it doesn't, I think?

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Different approach: Action "Toggle all take FX bypass for selected items"

Yes, but then I still hear my analog hardware effects.

The goal is to press a button on my monitor controller to hear the raw version with no FX (digital or analog).

It's much fast to do that than "Toggle all take FX bypass for selected items" and bypass all of my hardware inserts simultaneously. In mastering I do this very fast, the offline/online process of the plugins would be a slow down.

I'm very close to this now but I have to create and manage a duplicate track of my "source" track which I'm trying to avoid doing.

I appreciate the help but I'm very clear on what I need. I think the only solution is a way to send items to a hardware output without any item or track FX.

[MRMJP]

zz

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

If you use input FX, it doesn't, I think?

You're losing me here. Where would I use input FX?

Aren't input FX used to record plugins on the way in to a track? That has no relevance to what I'm doing here.

[EvilDragon]

Sorry, you're right. Input FX wouldn't help.


I can't see it possible to do what you want without an item FX that would send stuff to a different channel before your FX processing, unfortunately. You cannot use track pre-FX sends because those include all your item FX...

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

I'm very close to this now but I have to create and manage a duplicate track of my "source" track which I'm trying to avoid doing.

I appreciate the help but I'm very clear on what I need. I think the only solution is a way to send items to a hardware output without any item or track FX.

Almost correct, but you do not need two tracks. However, you will need to set the Pin Connectors. As in my previous post.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Sorry, you're right. Input FX wouldn't help.


I can't see it possible to do what you want without either item FX or track FX, unfortunately.

Yes. I think either a feature needs to be added to send items to hardware outputs directly before an item FX which isn't likely.

Or a simple/stable plugin that is designed to take a stereo input and multiply it to additional hardware outputs. Similar to plugin pin connectors but without the issues with copying and pasting and latency.

I tried once using a simple JS plugin (I think) as the first insert on the item, and then sending to other outputs using the pins, but since other plugins (often UAD) are used after the first plugin, the sync between the processed and raw versions was not that close.

Something specific for mastering engineers that use item FX followed by hardware inserts is needed to do it properly, or better than I do it now.

I was curious if Jan had any tricks or desire to make such a plugin.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Almost correct, but you do not need two tracks. However, you will need to set the Pin Connectors. As in my previous post.

Thanks. I've been down the pin connectors path with not great luck. Maybe something has changed but some plugins did not play well with copying and pasting and would often get small latency issues that are a serious issue if you use the REAPER FX blend knob on any of the plugins.

I wasted too much time reprinting stuff that had such an issue that I"m hesitant to go back down that path.

[EvilDragon]

Fucking UAD, nothing but problems with it.


BTW, you could perhaps try this action:

Xenakios/SWS: Choose new source file for selected takes...

When you have grouped items across the source and duplicate track. This will change the source on both of them. This way you could even have your duplicate track hidden from your sight.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Fucking UAD, nothing but problems with it.


BTW, you could perhaps try this action:

Xenakios/SWS: Choose new source file for selected takes...

When you have grouped items across the source and duplicate track. This will change the source on both of them. This way you could even have your duplicate track hidden from your sight.

Thanks. I'll try that one, it actually does seem useful. I do keep the duplicate track hidden from my main view but I keep it so I can scroll to see it if needed.

That might further minimize my need to manage the duplicated track as things on the source tracks change.

[EvilDragon]

You don't need to scroll it even. Just hide it outright. Use the Track Manager to show/hide tracks (and a bunch of other stuff, too). Such an useful tool.

[ashcat_lt]

If it's all the same plugins, just different settings, why not use automation? Different workflow, I know, but...

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

If it's all the same plugins, just different settings, why not use automation? Different workflow, I know, but...

It's not always all the same plugins. Plus, automation would be way too fiddly. Way too fiddly. Way more work than just duplicating the track and managing any source item changes.

Thanks guys, I don't need any more bizarre ideas though...just a way to send an item to another hardware out before any item FX.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

It's not always all the same plugins. Plus, automation would be way too fiddly. Way too fiddly. Way more work than just duplicating the track and managing any source item changes.

Thanks guys, I don't need any more bizarre ideas though...just a way to send an item to another hardware out before any item FX.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Item FX by their nature come before any track routing so there's no simple way to do what you're after. That's just the way Reaper's signal flow works. It sounds like what you're asking for is an item based send/hardware output, but that doesn't exist. Maybe someday. Right now I'd say the most straight forward way to get the result you're looking for is to use automated track FX instead of item FX and put a Pre-FX hardware output on the track for monitoring the raw

Automating track FX really isn't fiddly or a bizzare idea, it's just a different workflow than what you're used to. Set your track to Latch-Preview mode, dial in your FX settings, then write the automation to a time selection and move on to the next section that needs processing. Automate the bypasses when you want to use different Fx chains for different sections. I can't imagine this being slower than your current method and would expect it to be quite a bit faster once you got the hang of it.

[MRMJP]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

and I can say from experience that it is acutally a lot faster than you're duplication method. it's just a different workflow than your used to. I

I disagree. When I have the files arranged on my source track, I can press one button and have the files sent marred to the duplicated track. It takes about 2 seconds.

Managing plugin paramater automation on an EP or album mastering project just for the sake of using track FX on one track vs. item FX is not really worth it IMO.

I think a special plugin that can multiply the stereo input to additional hardware outputs and delay the audio to be in sync with the audio that passes through all the plugins is what's needed.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

Managing plugin paramater automation on an EP or album mastering project just for the sake of using track FX on one track vs. item FX is not really worth it IMO.

There really isn't anything that needs to be "managed", as I said you just adjust the FX settings til you're happy then write them to a time selection and you're done with that section. You're already doing most of this with the item FX, the only extra step is running an action to write the plugin automation to a time selection (much like duplicating a track this is a single button press). No worry about replacing sources on your dupe track this way as everything happens on one track. This also has the added benefit of using less plugin instances, as there's only one FX chain that lives on the track, as opposed to a separate chain on each item.

[karumba]

Originally Posted by MRMJP

I have a different question though. Do you have a good solution to do this?:

Send an item to more than one stereo hardware output without any item FX (or track FX) being applied?

I like to have the ability to hear a totally unprocessed version of the song I'm working on with the press of a button on my Avocet remote.

To do this now, I have to make a duplicate track of all my source unmastered files and route that track to another digital output. I have a script to do this fairly quickly but it becomes a hassle if I have to replace the source file, or if i make any item or take level changes, I have to make sure to mirror them on the duplicated track.

sorry for my late reply, i wasn't aware, that there was a question.
i'm using a separate track which has the original mix on it. if the client sends a new mix, i would mark both items (the one on my "master" track & the one on the "original mix" track) and just use the "select new source file" item-option. i've never found that to be a hassle, since it's done a few seconds. item-level changes, envelopes, etc. on the master item are preserved with that approach, so i can directly continue my work. does that answer your question?