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Old 04-03-2016, 03:27 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
It's also about cc messages. I use sometimes 5 lanes to get intonation right. But the main issue is that notes become literally invisible on longer midi tracks. Pair this with poor zooming both in and on opening midi editor, and you again waist time adjusting everything to view. Then you zoom in to see notes, select edit, zoom out and again see *shit* ( 'scouse me my polish) and blindly look for chord arpeggio number xxx "that was somewhere around there"
Manually zooming in the MIDI editor is fine, have a look at your zoom center options - I prefer edit cursor (and having it unlinked from the play cursor). I'd like to see no auto-zooming ever on opening new MIDI items (or switching to out of view ones in the Track List) though, but that's a different topic.

Notes are always minimum 1 pixel wide here so are never "literally" invisible. If they are literally invisible for some people then that would be a definite issue and please notice that I've already said I support a bigger minimum size.

I just swung by to point out that you can move and/or copy notes without having to touch any note at any zoom level.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:39 AM   #42
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Here`s a funny thing - I just decided on a whim to do some of my MIDI editing marathon I just started yesterday in Sonar X3.
The exact identical behaviour as in reaper regarding disappearing MIDI notes and note handles.

I don`t really have time to fool with it in Studio One, but I am now wondering if, as I suggested earlier, this is a "problem" common to most all sequencers.

So Mik, what happens in Cubase?
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Old 04-03-2016, 05:21 AM   #43
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Lassoing etc are well ment work arounds etc but I think there's a danger in finding alternative solutions for something very basic that should just work.
The difference between Reaper and Cubase (aside from the smallest notes being 1 pixel bigger (and black) in Cubase) is that in Reaper you can click directly on the visually smallest notes and move them, whereas in Cubase you can only resize them.

So which one "just works" is dependent on what you want to do with tiny notes most often, and the ability to drag in empty space is in addition to being able to play mouse darts with notes.

But to distill this down a bit, we have two separate things here. Visibility and editability.

I personally want to move notes more than resize them when they are tiny, so I don't think the industry standard is ideal there. btw dragging in empty space with the move/copy mouse modifiers (not that you have to) is much better once you've used it a few times than making a selection and then having to target a note to move/copy.

I'd support having MIDI note edge handles being optionally available at smaller visual sizes though. And an increase in minimum note size by 1 pixel.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:49 AM   #44
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What about Cubase? I'm using cubase, but that is besides the point. Besides, I have no clue why are some of you trying to make arguments against good solutions, or in many cases stay fixated on finding workarounds, which should only be temporary fixes, till proper solution comes. I just don't get that.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:00 AM   #45
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I have no idea why you and other Cubase n00bs (not ManyTracks) bleat on about it and then act all mystified when former users point out flaws in it. I didn't bring it up and I am obviously supporting the sensible improvements suggested here, just not your "copy Cubase" one, for the reasons outlined.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:16 AM   #46
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I have no idea why you and other Cubase n00bs (not ManyTracks) bleat on about it and then act all mystified when former users point out flaws in it. I didn't bring it up and I am obviously supporting the sensible improvements suggested here, just not your "copy Cubase" one, for the reasons outlined.
Here are some screen grabs from cubase noob. They are self explanatory. Cubase doesn't even need's to be copied - those solutions just need to be stolen. Then you can improve it. Otherwise you and others call for reinventing the wheel and waste resources and time.

High res images https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j...ew?usp=sharing
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File Type: jpg Notes.jpg (57.2 KB, 140 views)
File Type: jpg Notes2.jpg (59.0 KB, 151 views)
File Type: jpg Notes3.jpg (63.7 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg Notes4.jpg (64.5 KB, 99 views)
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:49 AM   #47
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Using the exact same midi track in 4 different sequencers. Editing. Zooming in and out. Trying to grab notes for extending / shortening (moving etc. Looking for stray notes. Etc. Etc.

It becomes very clear what's "important" here. What works and what doesn't.

Please, please dear developers, run 3-4 other "industry standard" sequencers and compare. Please spend time on the midi editor.


1.
Midi editing is a central part of producing music today.

2.
Midi editing is often an integral part of mixing. Instead of moving faders up/down, often it is a question of changing velocity and expression etc in the midi editor. Often when mixing I go back into the midi editor to adjust things.

3.
Recording midi and editing midi probably takes up 90% of my production time. A good midi editor is essential!

4.
Zooming in and out all the time takes time. I notice that the tiny / almost invisible notes are causing extra work here. When zooming out I don't get a clear picture of what I'm doing. It looks as if notes that exist are missing and that's simply not good (compare this with listening and not hearing certain notes even though they are recorded... No one would accept that... Same here - I need to SEE each and every note. Each and every note. All the time each and every note needs to be be visible).


There are some various smaller annoying things when drawing in CC lanes etc. My suggestion is that the Reaper Midi Editor gets a proper and needed overhaul / fix so that this otherwise EXCELLENT sequencer also has a fully professional midi editor.

I notice that when I'm doing projects that need a lot of midi editing work I tend to do that in other sequencers. This is a pity because I really love Reaper and all the super smart features and solutions it offers. But the midi editor relly needs to be improved.


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Old 04-03-2016, 09:54 AM   #48
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@ManyTracks: you seem like a sensible person, so could you agree or disagree or otherwise alter this distillation of your immediate requirements as per this thread:

1. Longer minimum display note size
2. Resize handles being available at smaller sizes
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:13 AM   #49
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@ManyTracks: you seem like a sensible person, so could you agree or disagree or otherwise alter this distillation of your immediate requirements as per this thread:

1. Longer minimum display note size
2. Resize handles being available at smaller sizes
Ok, so you all keep fiddling around with basic ideas, while the solutions are still way ahead of you. Nothing has been done re all of this for years, and all that was needed was to look in to how it has been solved in other daws, and pick the best solution. And I tell you right now, that your two points, that also we all have been making for a long time, will make things bit better, but wont solve other issues, like coloring, responsiveness and readability or selecting groups of short notes. But go on, keep on reinventing the wheel you sensible person. You can't even detach yourself from taking things on a personal level. This way nothing will ever get change, cause when developers read that, it makes them cold and confused.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:58 AM   #50
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Strange, I'm agreeing with everybody with a solution that isn't "steal everything from Cubase" and asking for clarification for something. Btw, posting lo-res, blurry screenshots of unknown sequences is not self-explanatory. In Cubase here, tiny notes are 2px black lines, so maybe they've changed that in recent versions so that 1/32nd notes all look like 1/4 notes or whatever you were showing there.

Anyway, all the best in your endeavours.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:00 AM   #51
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What about Cubase? I'm using cubase, but that is besides the point. Besides, I have no clue why are some of you trying to make arguments against good solutions, or in many cases stay fixated on finding workarounds, which should only be temporary fixes, till proper solution comes. I just don't get that.
I was merely asking how Cubase deals with little notes.

Since you are having problems with it, I assumed you had already checked out what Cubase's behaviour was.


And snooks appears to have answered that.

And even on my 23" monitor the Cubase screenshots were illegible.
I don't see how anyone could actually edit anything at that resolution in the first place.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:09 AM   #52
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I was merely asking how Cubase deals with little notes.

Since you are having problems with it, I assumed you had already checked out what Cubase's behaviour was.


And snooks appears to have answered that.

And even on my 23" monitor the Cubase screenshots were illegible.
I don't see how anyone could actually edit anything at that resolution in the first place.
Editing at this resolution in Cubase is actually not a problem. Selecting notes, moving and snapping is working fine. However, the most important part of that is the display. On my reaper screenshots, notes are exactly same length, but displaying them is problematic, confusing to say the least. In cubase you can actually make up instantly what is that you see on the screen.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:15 AM   #53
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Pls have a look at how Logic Pro X as well.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:16 AM   #54
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Strange, I'm agreeing with everybody with a solution that isn't "steal everything from Cubase" and asking for clarification for something. Btw, posting lo-res, blurry screenshots of unknown sequences is not self-explanatory. In Cubase here, tiny notes are 2px black lines, so maybe they've changed that in recent versions so that 1/32nd notes all look like 1/4 notes or whatever you were showing there.
The forum have downscaled the images. Here are original size.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j...ew?usp=sharing

Yet even in low res you can see the difference clearly.

It's down to developers to figure this out, but point is they can be perfectly editable and viewed at pretty much any zoom level, and on way higher zoom levels then it is possible in reaper.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:26 AM   #55
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Pls have a look at how Logic Pro X as well.
I'd look in to it, but I don't use mac's.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:16 PM   #56
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I got interested enough about these claims of easier, better, more visible edits in other DAWs to download a trial of Cubase Elements. As I thought, the differences are not as clear as maybe suggested. First the most obvious one, yes, there are several different zoom features in most DAWs and they can and have to be used per individual needs. I cannot fathom how this could even be an arguing point, having to zoom in and out in a project.

Second, no, you are certainly not able to edit nor even see all the individual notes in every possible zoom level in Cubase Elements. I was able to zoom out to show a total of 145 measures in Cubase. That's not even 5 minutes at 120 bpm, hardly a big arrangement and not enough for me to see "the bigger picture" when I need that. But just like expected, at that point the smallest notes were gone, not visible at all. In Reaper I was able to zoom out to 63214 measures. That's over 400 times longer than in Cubase and I don't think anybody would expect to see any individual notes at that level. Yet I could still see the longest notes like I could in Cubase at 145 measures. Also, zooming back in was not any harder in Reaper than in Cubase Elements, but did take one extra mouse scroll to get back to the usual levels.

So next to maybe a more reasonable comparison. I set a full screen MIDI editor to show 5 bars in both Reaper and Cubase Elements. In the MIDI item there are notes of different lengths from 1/256th up to 1/4th. These because I reasoned any smaller notes won't make much sense in any usual arrangement (?) and longer are not a problem anyway. I'm using mouse and only to grab and try to edit the notes, no lassoing.

I think Cubase does show the smallest notes a bit more clear. Since the size is about the same, it seems to be more about the default colors chosen for the notes and the background, I used defaults on both.

I was able to move even the smallest notes just as easy on both. But in Reaper I could start adjusting the length of 1/64th and bigger notes whereas in Cubase the mouse cursor changed and allowed this with 1/256th notes already. These are not totally comparable since both DAWs have the mouse acting a bit different over the notes, I might check with more similar settings later.

And finally, editing clusters of small notes was as hard (=impossible) on both at this zoom level.
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:11 PM   #57
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I got interested enough about these claims of easier, better, more visible edits in other DAWs to download a trial of Cubase Elements. As I thought, the differences are not as clear as maybe suggested. First the most obvious one, yes, there are several different zoom features in most DAWs and they can and have to be used per individual needs. I cannot fathom how this could even be an arguing point, having to zoom in and out in a project.

Second, no, you are certainly not able to edit nor even see all the individual notes in every possible zoom level in Cubase Elements. I was able to zoom out to show a total of 145 measures in Cubase. That's not even 5 minutes at 120 bpm, hardly a big arrangement and not enough for me to see "the bigger picture" when I need that. But just like expected, at that point the smallest notes were gone, not visible at all. In Reaper I was able to zoom out to 63214 measures. That's over 400 times longer than in Cubase and I don't think anybody would expect to see any individual notes at that level. Yet I could still see the longest notes like I could in Cubase at 145 measures. Also, zooming back in was not any harder in Reaper than in Cubase Elements, but did take one extra mouse scroll to get back to the usual levels.

So next to maybe a more reasonable comparison. I set a full screen MIDI editor to show 5 bars in both Reaper and Cubase Elements. In the MIDI item there are notes of different lengths from 1/256th up to 1/4th. These because I reasoned any smaller notes won't make much sense in any usual arrangement (?) and longer are not a problem anyway. I'm using mouse and only to grab and try to edit the notes, no lassoing.

I think Cubase does show the smallest notes a bit more clear. Since the size is about the same, it seems to be more about the default colors chosen for the notes and the background, I used defaults on both.

I was able to move even the smallest notes just as easy on both. But in Reaper I could start adjusting the length of 1/64th and bigger notes whereas in Cubase the mouse cursor changed and allowed this with 1/256th notes already. These are not totally comparable since both DAWs have the mouse acting a bit different over the notes, I might check with more similar settings later.

And finally, editing clusters of small notes was as hard (=impossible) on both at this zoom level.
You went from one extreme to another. I just zoomed out almost to 700 bars in cubase ( aroud 33 minutes ), because, although it is my guess, u can zoom out from begining of track till the end of last item selected. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0j...ew?usp=sharing Oh, and other then selected item ( the first brighter one ) all other items contain only fast arpeggios.

Also please have a look at the screen grabs I've uploaded trough another link. They are self explanatory, and they are showing a bit more usual scenario then extreme or near extreme zoom states.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:34 AM   #58
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@ivansc: here's a screenshot of Cubase 8, 1/32 notes zoomed so that the notes are at minimum size (the view on a 1920px monitor here is 40 bars). I see they've dropped the note shadows in later versions and to be fair they've fixed the long-standing bug where you could only resize tiny notes...

... now you only can't move tiny notes that are right next to each other, again not ideal imo, but a definite improvement.

Aside from that, it appears that the resize handles are always there 1px outside of the note area, even when they are that small so that the note drag area (when no notes are right next door) at the smallest size is the area the note occupies. Unless there is a note next to it, where resize handles are contained to the note area, hence the move tiny notes with neighbours bug.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:04 AM   #59
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OK you guys are obviously able to see way better than I can. In that last example you gave, snooks, even on my 23" monitors at 1920 I would struggle to actually use that.
As for Mik`s - forget it!
So maybe the answer in my case is that simple. I couldn`t even use the sort of size edit window you guys are talking about in the first place!
I am still curious as to why you would want to have that many bars "in view" while editing though. I typically open out to no more than 24 bars, which covers pretty much anything I need to do. How long are your sections in a typical project?
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:02 AM   #60
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You went from one extreme to another.
I've done nothing else but tried the conditions presented earlier for the alleged problems. First the "maximum" zoom out. I am new to Cubase Elements and it sure may be able go further out or at least full Cubase will. But that's besides the point, all the notes were not visible nor editable even at that level anymore.

Second, showing only 4-5 bars in editor is another extreme to whom? I go constantly further down myself but chose 5 bars because at that level it seems most of the tiniest notes are already editable both in reference and Reaper...and I was actually able to get Cubase repeatedly to that level. Yep, managing the Cubase zoom was much harder for me than in Reaper where I could zoom into any level at any point of arrangement with ease.

I have found more editing differences at this 4-5 bar level but if people want to concentrate on 10 to few dozen bar levels, that's fine.

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Also please have a look at the screen grabs I've uploaded trough another link.
If some things are to be compared, one would hope the comparisons were done with the same material and at the same conditions or as close as possible to that. The packed Notes pics don't seem to adhere to that principle.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:34 AM   #61
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Cubase 8 represents short notes as longer notes (viewing them within the main GUI screen), until you view them on the piano roll, where you can see the shorter notes relative to longer notes.
Top image is a section of piano roll view. Bottom is from main GUI. Same notes for comparison.



I personally have no problem with the Reaper way as I use a mouse with a wheel.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:35 PM   #62
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It would be intersting what you think about the way Logic does it. The notes never get smaller than they are clearly visible.

I'm running both WIndows 7 and Mac.

The way Logic Pro X displays midi notes really makes identifying what you are doing very easy.

Basically it's all about not displaying notes shorter than you can comfortably always see. ou can always grab notes and move them around. This isn't so bad...

At least - have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD8hu10ZJs4

This is just one of many YouTube videos I found with Logic. At least it shows what happens when the guy is zoomig in and out. Please note that you can always see the notes.

Maybe the developers can have a user pref for this:

- "Display midi notes as tiny faint lines when zooing out"
- "Allways display midi notes so they are clearly visible"


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Old 04-04-2016, 03:04 PM   #63
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It would be intersting what you think about the way Logic does it. The notes never get smaller than they are clearly visible.

I'm running both WIndows 7 and Mac.

The way Logic Pro X displays midi notes really makes identifying what you are doing very easy.

Basically it's all about not displaying notes shorter than you can comfortably always see. ou can always grab notes and move them around. This isn't so bad...

At least - have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD8hu10ZJs4

This is just one of many YouTube videos I found with Logic. At least it shows what happens when the guy is zoomig in and out. Please note that you can always see the notes.

Maybe the developers can have a user pref for this:

- "Display midi notes as tiny faint lines when zooing out"
- "Allways display midi notes so they are clearly visible"


MT
I'm a PC only user so a 10 minute long Apple Mac video doesn't appeal.

For me on my screen, from this viewing distance the tiniest notes in Reaper are clearly visible (once you know that the hook shape is a tiny note, before zooming). Zooming in is just a flick of the mouse wheel. That said I'm not a piano roll jockey/note programmer, I mostly play tracks in via keyboards.
Those who choose to program every last note are better qualified than me to explain what they need from a DAW.

I can see how this would be a problem for some (especially those insisting on using the flaming laptop touchpad controls. An alternative display mode could be offered, but I do not think the standard version should change. It should be an alternative option (more like Cubase) for those that want it. An A and B mode.
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:52 PM   #64
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C'mon guys, let's not get ridiculous: I'd never even try editing notes o fully zoomed out 33 mins long track XD Not even o 7 mins track! I was just making a point. But that full view is important for navigation. As do notes that are scaling correctly ( as to my previous images, you can all clearly see that zooming makes same value notes display in 2 sizes, which is confusing) , and when selecting and moving long groups of notes when changing chord in arpeggio for example. And it is always nice to be able to edit them more precisely from higher level zoom then zoom in very closely ( and then scroll in reaper ) and then back to more wide view ( and then scroll in reaper ) [In some old posts I was also suggesting solutions for scrolling].

@Softsynth the notes dipsplay length in piano roll and sequencer depends on horizontal zoom.

@xpander I am using Cubase LE which is even more cut down version than elements. I'm sure you can also zoom out as wide as I can ( or even more! ) re notes zoom, I did refereed to 5-6 bars as near extreme, but must have been a miss no my part.

@ivansc No hard feelings.


So moving on, I think a first good step would be to add an option for minimal note display value, so if someone would want it to be 10 px wide for example, he or she can have that. Second would be scaling the interactive area by 1px around it. Side note: A long while ago I was posting re reapers interface, and suggested that all buttons interactive area should increase also by 1px on each side. In both cases adding 4px in total, making buttons easier to click ( I've been a web developer for many years if someone doesn't know ). This is common practice in all software to have those interactive areas tiny bit bigger then the button itself.

Next would be to fix glitching notes, so they scale properly. Thirdly the scaling algorithm could be improved. Then could move on to fixing screen when opening up the midi edit, so it actually scrolls to notes if they are high or low on the pr.

And then, smooth zoom, that doesn't require you too scroll afterwards ( at least less then it is now).

Expanded the topic, but this has been going on trough my mind for a very long time, and I don't think it hurts to write about it again.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:28 PM   #65
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@Softsynth the notes dipsplay length in piano roll and sequencer depends on horizontal zoom.
Yes I know, that's what the thread is almost exclusively about!!!
Notably how you (and other users) do not like the way that reaper displays very short notes without zooming in to make them visible blocks. What do think the photo was there to demonstrate?
In Reaper you see a hook shape, that is barely visible for some users.

For the picture I didn't change the horizontal zoom, I just clicked on the piano roll, without zooming in. The picture is there for clarification (for people totally unfamiliar with Cubase) how Steinberg handles those short notes without zooming in.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:29 PM   #66
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Yes I know, that's what the thread is almost exclusively about!!!
Notably how you (and other users) do not like the way that reaper displays very short notes without zooming in to make them visible blocks. What do think the photo was there to demonstrate?
In Reaper you see a hook shape, that is barely visible for some users.

For the picture I didn't change the horizontal zoom, I just clicked on the piano roll, without zooming in. The picture is there for clarification (for people totally unfamiliar with Cubase) how Steinberg handles those short notes without zooming in.
Sure, sorry, misread you.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:36 PM   #67
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Sure, sorry, misread you.
I really didn't think I could make it any clearer, but apology accepted.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:11 PM   #68
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You don't need to scroll after zooming in Reaper.

If you have your horizontal zoom center set to Edit cursor (Preferences->Editing behaviour) it zooms in and out to that 100% perfectly. You must have set it to Center of view, but it's not that by default. Setting to Mouse cursor is accurate too, but if you zoom out too far (in Reaper or Cubase) then the mouse cursor can be pointing at a different place than when you started zooming in. So opportunity for user error there.

-------------------

I've done some playing around with tiny notes in Reaper. On closer inspection they appear to have at least a 2px mouse target area with notes that are 1px minimum display size. Which is interesting, because in Cubase when not vertically zoomed in there is a 1px horizontal target area with notes that are 2px display size. The left pixel is a resize handle and the pixel to the right of the note is a resize handle. Only the right hand pixel is available.

When vertically zoomed in beyond point X, the note target area is split into two vertically, with the 3px in the upper half all available to drag move and with the same 1/1/1 split for resize/move in the lower half.

So in terms of grabbing functionality we are literally arguing about 1 pixel (who ever resizes notes that small without zooming (although resizing does disappear a smidge too early imo)?). A pixel more for Reaper actually, until you zoom in vertically in Cubase (which is difficult because there's no vertical mousewheel zoom) at which point Cubase gains the 1 pixel extra crown.

-------------------------------

I agree that rendering could do with a bit of polish.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:14 PM   #69
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You don't need to scroll after zooming in Reaper.

If you have your horizontal zoom center set to Edit cursor (Preferences->Editing behaviour) it zooms in and out to that 100% perfectly. You must have set it to Center of view, but it's not that by default. Setting to Mouse cursor is accurate too, but if you zoom out too far (in Reaper or Cubase) then the mouse cursor can be pointing at a different place than when you started zooming in. So opportunity for user error there.

-------------------

I've done some playing around with tiny notes in Reaper. On closer inspection they appear to have at least a 2px mouse target area with notes that are 1px minimum display size. Which is interesting, because in Cubase when not vertically zoomed in there is a 1px horizontal target area with notes that are 2px display size. The left pixel is a resize handle and the pixel to the right of the note is a resize handle. Only the right hand pixel is available.

When vertically zoomed in beyond point X, the note target area is split into two vertically, with the 3px in the upper half all available to drag move and with the same 1/1/1 split for resize/move in the lower half.

So in terms of grabbing functionality we are literally arguing about 1 pixel (who ever resizes notes that small without zooming (although resizing does disappear a smidge too early imo)?). A pixel more for Reaper actually, until you zoom in vertically in Cubase (which is difficult because there's no vertical mousewheel zoom) at which point Cubase gains the 1 pixel extra crown.

-------------------------------

I agree that rendering could do with a bit of polish.
Everything's better with a bit of Polish

I edit parts while monitoring, so I can't zoom to cursor, because it will reset the playback. I know I'm probably in minority, but that's an issue to me.

Thanks for doing your research. 1 pixel makes huge difference thou - I know it doesn't seam like much, but on the interface side, any type of program, games etc it does. I'm finding it problematic in reaper, but maybe that's due to notes rendering, which might active area depend on, but I haven't checked that.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:47 AM   #70
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I edit parts while monitoring, so I can't zoom to cursor, because it will reset the playback. I know I'm probably in minority, but that's an issue to me.
Then you can stop the edit cursor from seeking on clicking in Prefs->Seeking. Or zoom to mouse pointer instead. I prefer edit cursor. There really is no scrolling required.... honest!
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Thanks for doing your research. 1 pixel makes huge difference thou - I know it doesn't seam like much, but on the interface side, any type of program, games etc it does. I'm finding it problematic in reaper, but maybe that's due to notes rendering, which might active area depend on, but I haven't checked that.
The mouse target area does appear to be consistent at the zoom levels where there are two rendered sizes for the same length notes.

I agree that the 1px difference in minimum note size makes a difference and that rendering issues need to get sorted. In terms of target area for moving at overview zoom levels (not too extreme) though, Reaper does have twice the target area of Cubase here. So I think maybe aesthetics are distracting from functionality a tad.

I'm all for another round of polish though (coorva maj! (yeah, that's not spelled right)).
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:54 AM   #71
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Here`s the thing:
What Mik said earlier about wanting to use the highly stretched view to navigate brings up something I have quietly wittered about for a very long time indeed.
We could sidestep ALL of this by simply having a proper arrange editor.

I am not good at explaining things so my repeated posts on this subject have probably gone straight over most peoples heads.

IF we had an arrange editor that worked how it ideally should, the display would show each track in a project separately and the bars within the tracks as blocks. No notes or anything else showing.
To navigate an existing project, you follow the section labels you already put in to delineate a verse, a chorus, a bridge, etc, then click on that particular square to show the notes in the actual MIDI editor.
If you are building an arrangement you need only enter one iteration of each phrase you use, then copy and paste the blocks in the arrange editor.
And of course it means you can eventually select a whole section of blocks across ALL or several tracks and copy & paste that.
Having used this system in Bars n PIpes Pro for years, I have to say it is always going to be far and away the fastest and easiest way to both *build an arrangement, modify it, AND navigate it* - all with no zooming and no size issues.
The hard part is writing this out so it makes sense to someone who has never experienced it before!

And as far as I know I dont think any other DAW has this capability.
Whilst this would likely be a fairly major undertaking in terms of code, the results are spectacularly useful for MIDI authors.
And IF it could be coded to include asudio clips as well, I would be in heaven
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:59 AM   #72
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@ivansc No hard feelings.

Oh, absolutely not! Have a read of my above post and think seriously about the implications for you in your situation. I honestly think if we could convince Justin to have a look at this it would take Reaper`s editing and arranging a giant step forward.

FWIW I think not having the hybrid stave option in the notation editor is an opportunity missed as well, but of course people will never know if they have never tried it.

Just as well I am an old fart - I dont take these things as seriously or argue as passionately for them as I used to.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:22 AM   #73
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Here`s the thing:
What Mik said earlier about wanting to use the highly stretched view to navigate brings up something I have quietly wittered about for a very long time indeed.
We could sidestep ALL of this by simply having a proper arrange editor.

I am not good at explaining things so my repeated posts on this subject have probably gone straight over most peoples heads.

IF we had an arrange editor that worked how it ideally should, the display would show each track in a project separately and the bars within the tracks as blocks. No notes or anything else showing.
To navigate an existing project, you follow the section labels you already put in to delineate a verse, a chorus, a bridge, etc, then click on that particular square to show the notes in the actual MIDI editor.
If you are building an arrangement you need only enter one iteration of each phrase you use, then copy and paste the blocks in the arrange editor.
And of course it means you can eventually select a whole section of blocks across ALL or several tracks and copy & paste that.
Having used this system in Bars n PIpes Pro for years, I have to say it is always going to be far and away the fastest and easiest way to both *build an arrangement, modify it, AND navigate it* - all with no zooming and no size issues.
The hard part is writing this out so it makes sense to someone who has never experienced it before!

And as far as I know I dont think any other DAW has this capability.
Whilst this would likely be a fairly major undertaking in terms of code, the results are spectacularly useful for MIDI authors.
And IF it could be coded to include asudio clips as well, I would be in heaven
Isn't that more or less how FL does it?

Also, I think you are describing something in cubase called Duplicated Item, which is not a copy, and can be edited from any one of the same group of duplicated items. In reaper duplicate action is just copy/paste action. Also brush tool would be great. FL has it, and it's great for fast laying out duplicates of items.

Anyway, a arrange editor like that would definitely be useful for songwriting, not necessarily soundtracks. But I'd vote for that. Thought first I'd like to see things fixed, proper duplicated item added, and midi editing integrated in to main sequencer window.


@Snooks, I'd translate what that means, but I'd get probably warning from a mod for that XD But well done - now you can be a bro with Polish chavs
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:59 AM   #74
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Isn't that more or less how FL does it?

Also, I think you are describing something in cubase called Duplicated Item, which is not a copy, and can be edited from any one of the same group of duplicated items. In reaper duplicate action is just copy/paste action.
Reaper has pooled/ghost/duplicated MIDI items, you can make duplicate and paste actions create pooled/ghost/duplicated items automatically in Preferences (Pool MIDI source data...)....



... or create them manually with the mouse modifier (Ctrl+Alt+Shift + left drag by default).

Quote:
Also brush tool would be great. FL has it, and it's great for fast laying out duplicates of items.
Ctrl+drag in an empty area paints the selected item. You can paint audio and MIDI clips with this. Ctrl+Alt+Shift and drag in empty area paints pooled/ghost/duplicated items.
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Anyway, a arrange editor like that would definitely be useful for songwriting, not necessarily soundtracks. But I'd vote for that. Thought first I'd like to see things fixed, proper duplicated item added, and midi editing integrated in to main sequencer window.
Midi editing from the arrange is the reason I wrote ReaMIDI. If you embrace scripting, Reaper's MIDI editing is the most powerful in the biz.
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@Snooks, I'd translate what that means, but I'd get probably warning from a mod for that XD But well done - now you can be a bro with Polish chavs
I learned all the Polish I know from Motor Lublin fans - that was about 5% of it there. Djenk!
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:19 AM   #75
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C'mon guys, let's not get ridiculous: I'd never even try editing notes o fully zoomed out 33 mins long track XD Not even o 7 mins track! I was just making a point. But that full view is important for navigation.
Absolutely, and this has been my main point against a definite "everything always visible/editable" condition mentioned earlier in this thread, thanks Mik. I can see how being able to set some min/max limits could benefit some users though.

I do go from full arrangement down to even one bar constantly but have no problems with that, so have no complaints either. Where I could perhaps have a say is editing at those zoomed in levels with 1 pixel differences. Some of those snooks already laid out above, thanks for that. There is also a history of those 1 px discussions from way past already, but I personally don't have time nor energy to go back to all that here, so thanks for everybody about the discussion so far.

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@xpander I am using Cubase LE which is even more cut down version than elements. I'm sure you can also zoom out as wide as I can ( or even more!
Perhaps, I just could't get it that far when I tried, but that's ok. I won't reinstall the trial just to check that again though.
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:45 AM   #76
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Isn't that more or less how FL does it?

Also, I think you are describing something in cubase called Duplicated Item, which is not a copy, and can be edited from any one of the same group of duplicated items. In reaper duplicate action is just copy/paste action. Also brush tool would be great. FL has it, and it's great for fast laying out duplicates of items.

Anyway, a arrange editor like that would definitely be useful for songwriting, not necessarily soundtracks. But I'd vote for that. Thought first I'd like to see things fixed, proper duplicated item added, and midi editing integrated in to main sequencer window.


@Snooks, I'd translate what that means, but I'd get probably warning from a mod for that XD But well done - now you can be a bro with Polish chavs
No - I already had a look at how FL does stuff and it doesnt come close. And unfortunately your comment re Cubase shows you really don't understand my crap explanation.
Driving me nuts that I cant get the concept across.
Wish I could make a video of just how easy and powerful this was in BPP but I dont even have an Amiga or the software any more.

EDIT: Found this link. http://www.amigaos.net/sites/default...?itok=9Lep14GG

A very early pre release version but vwn here there is a rudimentary version of the arrange page in the bottom right corner window.
The time line goes left to right and the MIDI tracks run from 1 to 16 (or however many you are using) top to bottom.
Each block is a bar (or 2 or 3 or however many you set it up to be) so you can copy and paste or indeed delete, etc, any individual instrument's parts or whole sections using shift-select.
Hope this makes it clearer.
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Old 10-06-2016, 11:12 AM   #77
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Reaper 2.25/x64

This bit me in the nose today, and it's bad. Every note I've played has a tiny note either just underneath the main note or just barely ahead of it. Basically it's invisible until I move the main note.

Also I have to move one note at a time because if I try to move more than one, the notes either don't show, or puff, the main note disappears.

This has never happened to me before, not like this, so I'm not sure what's going on.
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Old 10-07-2016, 02:55 AM   #78
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Cant resist.... Maybe if you updated to at least reaper 3.0???
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Old 10-07-2016, 05:55 AM   #79
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Reaper 2.25/x64

This bit me in the nose today, and it's bad. Every note I've played has a tiny note either just underneath the main note or just barely ahead of it. Basically it's invisible until I move the main note

This has never happened to me before, not like this, so I'm not sure what's going on.
possible that you were overdubbing in loop mode and accidentally recorded the same loop twice? that happens to me from time to time and i know your record similarly
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Old 10-07-2016, 07:40 AM   #80
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Cant resist.... Maybe if you updated to at least reaper 3.0???
Thanks Ivan, heh heh, maybe you could share yours, I can't seem to find it?

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possible that you were overdubbing in loop mode and accidentally recorded the same loop twice? that happens to me from time to time and i know your record similarly
Thanks mccrabney, but no, I use overdub but I don't record in loop mode. It only happened in one fairly long section, everything be for and after that section were okay.

I only use full song midi items and this happened more in the middle, I ended up gluing the midi item and all the notes in that section elongated. I think they actually all elongated to the end of the item (end of song).

I was in a hurry so I just deleted all that section and redid it.
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