Old 02-09-2012, 09:10 AM   #201
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I think what's happening is when I look at version 2 of your project, that marker 2 is one cd frame off. It should be at 2 seconds for red book compliance.

Just for reference, in your project settings, you have the framerate set to 23.976 which is for video. When I change that to 75 for CD frames, and click on marker 2, it reads 0:00:02:01

Also on your time section it starts at + 1 frame. Is that what you wanted?

Here's a corrected version of your version 2 RPP file. Let me know if this works.
Download

Also, to double check everything, when you get done with rendering, I would import the .DAT file on a new track in Reaper and compare it with the original project.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:16 AM   #202
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Now that's great info! And thanks for your help of course!!!

Being able to change the frame rate to 75 and to import a .DAT file was totally new to me!

Shouldn't we make a sticky for setting up a DDP session step-by-step? And if I find the time I'll post a template session in the stash.

[btw. The 1 frame offset in the beginning was just due to a locked CD marker – which might be wrong because of the frame rate – at 00:02:01, so I nudged the edit cursor back 2 seconds and made this my time selection start point... Nevertheless it's strange that Sonoris didn't report any errors, and Gear Pro did.]
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:53 PM   #203
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Now that's great info! And thanks for your help of course!!!

Being able to change the frame rate to 75 and to import a .DAT file was totally new to me!

Shouldn't we make a sticky for setting up a DDP session step-by-step? And if I find the time I'll post a template session in the stash.

[btw. The 1 frame offset in the beginning was just due to a locked CD marker – which might be wrong because of the frame rate – at 00:02:01, so I nudged the edit cursor back 2 seconds and made this my time selection start point... Nevertheless it's strange that Sonoris didn't report any errors, and Gear Pro did.]
Glad you got it sorted out. I would like to chip in on some sort of DDP guide, but DDP in Reaper isn't finished yet. Sergej, who created the DDP plug in, has made some changes, but the developers at Cockos hasn't included those yet. Hopefully they will get to it soon.
Regards, Wyatt
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:02 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Sergenious View Post
For the OSX I don't know, as I was never be able to use Mac, but now I see that on Windows, Reaper can burn the CD either by Windows native method (I am sure this is IMAPI), or via cdrecord (http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html).

Cdrecord seems a good solution, and if anyone can study the parameters, I may provide the calling of this cdrecord command line from the DDP export line.

If Tim Lloyd finds out the parameters for Mac's drutil (and if JCS do actually use drutil), I may also include them.
Here's some other links that has compiled versions of cdtools for windows. The parameters can be found when you run the command -help

http://www.paehl.com/open_source/?CD...th_DVD_Support

http://www.student.tugraz.at/thomas.plank/

Would it be possible for this to work for Windows and Mac?

Here's the parameters:


Options:
-version print version information and exit
dev=target SCSI target to use as CD/DVD/BD-Recorder
gracetime=# set the grace time before starting to write to #.
timeout=# set the default SCSI command timeout to #.
debug=#,-d Set to # or increment misc debug level
kdebug=#,kd=# do Kernel debugging
-verbose,-v increment general verbose level by one
-Verbose,-V increment SCSI command transport verbose level by one
-silent,-s do not print status of failed SCSI commands
driver=name user supplied driver name, use with extreme care
driveropts=opt a comma separated list of driver specific options
-setdropts set driver specific options and exit
-checkdrive check if a driver for the drive is present
-prcap print drive capabilities for MMC compliant drives
-inq do an inquiry for the drive and exit
-scanbus scan the SCSI bus and exit
-reset reset the SCSI bus with the cdrecorder (if possible)
-abort send an abort sequence to the drive (may help if hung)
-overburn allow to write more than the official size of a medium
-ignsize ignore the known size of a medium (may cause problems)
-useinfo use *.inf files to overwrite audio options.
speed=# set speed of drive
blank=type blank a CD-RW disc (see blank=help)
-format format a CD-RW/DVD-RW/DVD+RW disc
fs=# Set fifo size to # (0 to disable, default is 4 MB)
ts=# set maximum transfer size for a single SCSI command
-load load the disk and exit (works only with tray loader)
-lock load and lock the disk and exit (works only with tray loader)
-eject eject the disk after doing the work
-dummy do everything with laser turned off
-minfo retrieve and print media information/status
-media-info retrieve and print media information/status
-msinfo retrieve multi-session info for mkisofs >= 1.10
-toc retrieve and print TOC/PMA data
-atip retrieve and print ATIP data
-multi generate a TOC that allows multi session
In this case default track type is CD-ROM XA mode 2 form
1 - 2048 bytes
-fix fixate a corrupt or unfixated disk (generate a TOC)
-nofix do not fixate disk after writing tracks
-waiti wait until input is available before opening SCSI
-immed Try to use the SCSI IMMED flag with certain long lasting
commands
-force force to continue on some errors to allow blanking bad disks
-tao Write disk in TAO mode. This option will be replaced inthe future.
-dao Write disk in SAO mode. This option will be replaced inthe future.
-sao Write disk in SAO mode. This option will be replaced inthe future.
-raw Write disk in RAW mode. This option will be replaced inthe future.
-raw96r Write disk in RAW/RAW96R mode. This option will be replaced in the future.
-raw96p Write disk in RAW/RAW96P mode. This option will be replaced in the future.
-raw16 Write disk in RAW/RAW16 mode. This option will be replaced in the future.
-clone Write disk in clone write mode.
tsize=# Length of valid data in next track
padsize=# Amount of padding for next track
pregap=# Amount of pre-gap sectors before next track
defpregap=# Amount of pre-gap sectors for all but track #1
mcn=text Set the media catalog number for this CD to 'text'
isrc=text Set the ISRC number for the next track to 'text'
index=list Set the index list for the next track to 'list'
-text Write CD-Text from information from *.inf or *.cue files

textfile=name Set the file with CD-Text data to 'name'
cuefile=name Set the file with CDRWIN CUE data to 'name'
-audio Subsequent tracks are CD-DA audio tracks
-data Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM data mode 1 - 2048 bytes (default)
-mode2 Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM data mode 2 - 2336 bytes
-xa Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM XA mode 2 form 1 - 2048 bytes
-xa1 Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM XA mode 2 form 1 - 2056 bytes
-xa2 Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM XA mode 2 form 2 - 2324 bytes
-xamix Subsequent tracks are CD-ROM XA mode 2 form 1/2 - 2332 bytes
-cdi Subsequent tracks are CDI tracks
-isosize Use iso9660 file system size for next data track
-preemp Audio tracks are mastered with 50/15 us preemphasis
-nopreemp Audio tracks are mastered with no preemphasis (default)
-copy Audio tracks have unlimited copy permission
-nocopy Audio tracks may only be copied once for personal use (default)
-scms Audio tracks will not have any copy permission at all
-pad Pad data tracks with 15 zeroed sectors
Pad audio tracks to a multiple of 2352 bytes
-nopad Do not pad data tracks (default)
-shorttrack Subsequent tracks may be non Red Book < 4 seconds if in
SAO or RAW mode
-noshorttrack Subsequent tracks must be >= 4 seconds
-swab Audio data source is byte-swapped (little-endian/Intel)
The type of the first track is used for the toc type.
Currently only form 1 tracks are supported.
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:46 AM   #205
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Default CD Text

I just caught up with this thread - rather late I know but here is an invaluable resorce on CUE files and it contains the CDTEXT part too.
Samplitude exports a CUE file if you don't want to burn right away and IMG_burn is the perfect partner for burning those. A wave export is preferable to BIN as it can be played is players like Foobar2000 which then show all the tags / text etc. without needing to burn one first.

http://digitalx.org/cue-sheet/syntax/

Long had I wanted DDP export and wrote a few feature request back in VER2 days, so thanks for getting it together! I shall test it right away.

Cheers . . . .
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:05 PM   #206
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This program XLD for Mac is interesting. It's open source as far as I know. A DDPMS file (which is part of the DDP fileset) can be opened as a cue sheet, then you can click on the burn button, and burn your DDP image to CD. I would pay a programer something to do something like this for Windows. Is there anyone one here that could do something like this?

Mac users can check it out here.
http://tmkk.pv.land.to/xld/index_e.html
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:40 AM   #207
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would be nice indeed. Burning and cue/wav export are the two remaining things I'm doing outside reaper now.

I have send some DDPs made in reaper to two different plants = everything is ok...CD text is good for me also
thanks again Sergej and all people involved

Now we need cockos to go a step further!
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:49 AM   #208
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Hello everybody, maybe I should quickly introduce myself. I'm a recording producer and engineer working with classical music and have been working with DDP masters for many years. I'm not a REAPER user (yet?), but Wyatt has convinced me to join this community anyway, maybe I can be of help regarding DDP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
This program XLD for Mac is interesting. It's open source as far as I know. A DDPMS file (which is part of the DDP fileset) can be opened as a cue sheet, then you can click on the burn button, and burn your DDP image to CD. I would pay a programer something to do something like this for Windows. Is there anyone one here that could do something like this?
Hi Wyatt, I've taken your challenge and attached a (Windows) program, which works as a simple droplet. You drag a DDP folder onto the program's icon and it will write a cue sheet into the DDP folder. This cue sheet is not part of the DDP, but could be used to burn the DDP, e.g. with ImgBurn, or play (e.g. foobar2000?).

The audio and CD TEXT file from the DDP will not be touched, but the cue sheet links to them, avoiding the need to copy that data, as a full DDP to cue/wav converter would probably have to do.

If you want, you are invited to test this little tool.
Attached Files
File Type: zip DDPAddCue.zip (25.6 KB, 268 views)
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:03 AM   #209
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anrug – I'm speechless! Have to try it ASAP!!!
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:57 AM   #210
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anrug – I'm speechless! Have to try it ASAP!!!
Let me know how it goes.

I've been doing some testing and it turns out that ImgBurn has a bug in it's cue sheet parser, so the burned CD will have a pregap before the first track which is too long, it does not really matter for listening though, but it's a bit unsatisfying. With other burning applications it also seems tricky: EAC does not support the CDTEXTFILE command, InfraRecorder uses the old cdrecord version, which does not support the CDTEXTFILE command either, cdrfte uses the current version of cdrecord, whoch does support the CDTEXTFILE command but that one has a bug in resolving the CD text file name... Tricky.

Another solution would be to do the CD burning directly (using SCSI commands), but that's quite involving, or convert the DDP into another image format, like cue/wav (although CD TEXT is limited if one wants to avoid the CDTEXTFILE command), or Nero, or Global Image. All doable, but more or less involving. For my personal workflow I prefer the DAW exporting a format like cue/wave (or it's own format like Pyramix does with .pmi), which is then (optionally) turned into a DDP. If I need a reference CD I burn from the original CD image, not from the DDP. - Your milage may vary.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:26 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anrug View Post
Hello everybody, maybe I should quickly introduce myself. I'm a recording producer and engineer working with classical music and have been working with DDP masters for many years. I'm not a REAPER user (yet?), but Wyatt has convinced me to join this community anyway, maybe I can be of help regarding DDP.


Hi Wyatt, I've taken your challenge and attached a (Windows) program, which works as a simple droplet. You drag a DDP folder onto the program's icon and it will write a cue sheet into the DDP folder. This cue sheet is not part of the DDP, but could be used to burn the DDP, e.g. with ImgBurn, or play (e.g. foobar2000?).

The audio and CD TEXT file from the DDP will not be touched, but the cue sheet links to them, avoiding the need to copy that data, as a full DDP to cue/wav converter would probably have to do.

If you want, you are invited to test this little tool.
Thanks Andreas. Man, that was quick. I'll check this out, and post back. Many Many Thanks, Wyatt

BTW, Welcome to the Reaper forums.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:45 PM   #212
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Andreas,
Seems like the output of the cue is adding an extra pregap when I compare in Sonoris DDP Player. I can't figure that out. Any Ideals?

Thanks, Wyatt

Here's a comparison.

Cue Import



DDP Import

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Old 02-15-2012, 03:01 AM   #213
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Andreas,
Seems like the output of the cue is adding an extra pregap when I compare in Sonoris DDP Player. I can't figure that out. Any Ideals?
My Ideals are a world where each software seamlessly understands the other.

Kidding aside: yes, I think I know what's going on there. DDP Creator simply can't deal with cue sheets, which include the first pre-gap already. If this is not documented as something you should not do in the DDP Creator manual, I personally would tend to consider this a bug. In particular your screen shot shows two entries for track 1 index 0; I do not own a copy of the Red Book, but that's impossible to have, I believe. It's the same behaviour I've observed with ImgBurn though, and it hasn't stopped ImgBurn from writing a CD, so I maybe mistaken.

It may be that cue sheets which include the first (default) pre-gap are less common than those which do not, the cue sheet specification does not mention anything related. But the idea to write a cue sheet which simply links the DDP's IMAGE.DAT will only work if I use the IMAGE.DAT as it is, and all DAWs I've seen export a flavor of DDP which includes the first pre-gap. So to get this working in DDP Creator and ImgBurn, we'd have to strip the first pre-gap and thus make a copy of the audio, which of course is a pity, as it clutters the hard disk.

The upcoming version of my command line DDP utilities (http://ddp.andreasruge.de) will have a full DDP to cue/wav conversion (for the most common DDP flavors) which should then also work with ImgBurn und Sonoris DDP Creator. But it may be a few weeks until I'm done with that.

If I come up with a better idea, I'll let you know.

EDIT: BTW, although ImgBurn shows two pregaps, when I open the cue sheet produced by DDPAddCue, the burned CD seems to have only the intended pregap of two seconds--strange, but maybe this means that ImgBurn is the way to go for burning listening copies.

Last edited by anrug; 02-15-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:54 AM   #214
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So to get this working in DDP Creator and ImgBurn, we'd have to strip the first pre-gap.
Andreas,
would it be possible for you to build another test version of DDPAddCue, and leave out the first pre-gap?

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #215
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this pregap thing is a mess
I think this is due to:
two different ways of writing it in a cue-sheet
you can write it "pre-gap" 2"
or just index0 and 2"later index1: beginning of the file
BUT some software automatically add the "pregap" thing even if there is index0

Maybe your software is doing that, adding an automatic 2seconds "pregap" writing in the cue-sheet if it's not in the ddp,
but reaper'sDDP already has index0+2seconds later index1.

Last edited by vinx; 02-15-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
this pregap thing is a mess
I think this is due to:
two different ways of writing it in a cue-sheet
you can write it "pre-gap" 2"
or just index0 and 2"later index1: beginning of the file
BUT some software automatically add the "pregap" thing even if there is index0 (I think imageburn is one of them)...
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, are you referring to a cue sheet's PREGAP command?

Taking that into account there would be three options to write a cue sheet (note that in a CDRWin cue sheet the time always refers to the file specified):

1.
FILE "audio-without-pregap.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 01 00:00:00

This will place the start of the sound file at 00:02:00. By far the most common type of starting the cue sheet.

2.
FILE "audio-without-pregap.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

This will do the same as 1., but is a bit more explicit. I've never seen a program outputting a cue sheet like this.

3.
FILE "audio-with-pregap.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:02:00

This is when your audio file does include the pre-gap. EAC does produce files like this. When you have a hidden track, this is the only way to go. As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with this way of starting a cue sheet, but not all software seems prepared for this.

As I mentioned ImgBurn does burn those cue sheets correctly as far as I can say, but it's display beforehand is strange (similar to the screenshots Wyatt posted from DDP Creator).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinx View Post
Maybe your software is doing that, adding an automatic 2seconds "pregap" writing in the cue-sheet if it's not in the ddp,
but reaper'sDDP already has index0+2seconds later index1.
Maybe I didn't explain that correctly before: I'm trying to use the DDP's IMAGE.DAT as is, and that includes the pre-gap already, so I have no choice I can only write a cue sheet of type 3 (see above). So, no, I'm not adding another pregap, I'm just not stripping the one that's already there (which would be a shame in case of a hidden track anyway).

Last edited by anrug; 02-15-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:59 PM   #217
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ok sorry for my english. Now If I understand:

type3 is correct for sure BUT softwares that use type2 (imgburn or sonoris) automatically add the "safety" line "PREGAP 00:02:00" when opening a type1 or type3 . I had this issue when creating cuesheet with EAC and burning with Imgburn.
So your software is good and should be kept as it is, but the issue is compatibility (type2vs3) when reading the cuesheet?

Thank you

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Old 02-15-2012, 03:15 PM   #218
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Andreas,

Could their be a way in cmd to have an option to give a version 2 cue like you have above, or a way to have options available that when you dragged the DDP folder into DDPAddCue.exe an option would display.

-1 no pre-gap
-2 pre-gap

Would that be doable?

Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:54 PM   #219
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Could their be a way in cmd to have an option to give a version 2 cue like you have above, or a way to have options available that when you dragged the DDP folder into DDPAddCue.exe an option would display.

-1 no pre-gap
-2 pre-gap

Would that be doable?
I'm afraid not, I wish it were. I'm sorry if I have trouble explaining this issue, but it's not up to me, I can very easily change my software to output whatever we want. But a cue sheet like

FILE "IMAGE.DAT" BINARY
TRACK 01 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

will not do what you intend, because the IMAGE.DAT starts with two seconds of silence, that would now show up after the first track start (index 01). I simply can't change the IMAGE.DAT (without copying the audio that is), so if a program like DDP Creator decides to not handle cue sheets with the pregap already present in the audio file, than that's tough luck. (But as I mentioned it seems that ImgBurn does accept the cue sheet, have you had a chance to check that?)

The cleanest solution for creating a cue image which has a better chance of being read by not too sophisticated programs is to do a full DDP to cue sheet conversion. So write a Wave file without the pregap and add an appropriate cue sheet (version 1 from my list). That's a feature I have implemented (but not tested much) in the upcoming version of my ddpinfo program (http://ddp.andreasruge.de). But having to copy the audio is a drag I feel, although it would also make playing the DDP a little easier as well.
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:59 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by anrug View Post
I'm afraid not, I wish it were. I'm sorry if I have trouble explaining this issue, but it's not up to me, I can very easily change my software to output whatever we want. But a cue sheet like

FILE "IMAGE.DAT" BINARY
TRACK 01 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

will not do what you intend, because the IMAGE.DAT starts with two seconds of silence, that would now show up after the first track start (index 01). I simply can't change the IMAGE.DAT (without copying the audio that is), so if a program like DDP Creator decides to not handle cue sheets with the pregap already present in the audio file, than that's tough luck. (But as I mentioned it seems that ImgBurn does accept the cue sheet, have you had a chance to check that?)

The cleanest solution for creating a cue image which has a better chance of being read by not too sophisticated programs is to do a full DDP to cue sheet conversion. So write a Wave file without the pregap and add an appropriate cue sheet (version 1 from my list). That's a feature I have implemented (but not tested much) in the upcoming version of my ddpinfo program (http://ddp.andreasruge.de). But having to copy the audio is a drag I feel, although it would also make playing the DDP a little easier as well.
Thanks for the explanation. I have a better understanding now. I will be patient, and wait for the new version that writes a wav file.

Thanks for your time on this Andreas.
Later, Wyatt
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:18 AM   #221
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But having to copy the audio is a drag I feel, although it would also make playing the DDP a little easier as well.
I like to have the two different files: DDP and cue/wav, because cue/wav is the only file I'm currently sending via ftp to clients and that they can listen/burn on "standard" softwares.
If DDP to cue/wav conversion is 100% reliable, then it doesn't matter if we (at the studio) burn the "test"CD from DDP or cue/wav.
The only issue at present (not a big one) would be that Img burn is maybe not able to burn CD with pre-hidden track?
I'll try to test this
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:01 AM   #222
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I like to have the two different files: DDP and cue/wav, because cue/wav is the only file I'm currently sending via ftp to clients and that they can listen/burn on "standard" softwares.
If DDP to cue/wav conversion is 100% reliable, then it doesn't matter if we (at the studio) burn the "test" CD from DDP or cue/wav.
Completely agreed. Not being a Reaper user I have to admit that my workflow usually has been:
1. first finish PQ editing, optionally with CD text
2. export CD image (often native format like Pyramix' .pmi, or Sequoia's HDP/wav), this is what I needs to approve by doing my final listening
3. burn a CD from the image if needed for clients
4. (optionally) write a DDP from the image to send to the plant

Number 3 and 4 can be checked for identity to the CD image without the need to listen to the whole thing again. For this type of workflow I wrote the "cue2ddp" converter program, because I thought that most DAWs with PQ editing capabilities can at least spit out cue/wav. Then the DDP can be inspected with "ddpinfo" to check the PQ code and especially CD text.

However, as I understand REAPER does export DDP but not cue/wav, so you'll want to go the other way around. I've attached a spin-off of my current development version, which you can play with. It's a simple droplet, just drag the DDP folder onto it and it will write a cue image within the same folder: ddpimage.cue, ddpimage.wav, and if needed ddpimage.cdt. Any comments and testers welcome!

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Originally Posted by vinx View Post
The only issue at present (not a big one) would be that Img burn is maybe not able to burn CD with pre-hidden track?
I'll try to test this
Will be interested in what you find out!
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File Type: zip DDP2Cue.zip (27.3 KB, 218 views)
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Old 02-16-2012, 05:39 AM   #223
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Its about time Reaper did spit out CUE/WAV - It was a feature request of mine back in VER2 (which I'm still on) but somehow BIN got in there which is of no practical use. (BTW - I was the one who got it added to Seq/Samp too . . . ha!)

So come on Cockos !


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Old 02-16-2012, 08:28 AM   #224
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Not being a Reaper user . . . . .
Did you know that Art Evans wrote 'ReaBurn' which utilizes thee RPP file and a bounced Wave file to produce a CUE/WAV set?

http://sites.google.com/site/insidea...eaBurn_2_5.zip

Original thread here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=1220

Thats been the going work around for me.

Sequoia provides the CUE file before bouncing.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:11 AM   #225
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I've attached a spin-off of my current development version, which you can play with. It's a simple droplet, just drag the DDP folder onto it and it will write a cue image within the same folder: ddpimage.cue, ddpimage.wav, and if needed ddpimage.cdt. Any comments and testers welcome!

Will be interested in what you find out!
Thanks! It's working.

When I import the Image.DAT, then import the .wav file on another track to compare, the wav file is shortened on the end by 2 frames.
Is that right?
Thanks, Wyatt
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:31 AM   #226
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Questions I have.

Where is Sergej?
Will he further develop DDP stuff for Reaper?
Will Cockos ever be evolved?

No pun intended for anyone. Just curious.
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:49 AM   #227
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Thanks! It's working.
Great to hear that!

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When I import the Image.DAT, then import the .wav file on another track to compare, the wav file is shortened on the end by 2 frames.
Is that right?
I don't think so. When you see the two files in the Explorer, can you get me the exact size in bytes of both files? (I think it's called "properties" in the context menu).

The Wave file should be shorter by 2 seconds (150 CD frames) at the beginning, as the pre-gap is chopped off, aside from that the audio should be identical.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:06 PM   #228
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Great to hear that!


I don't think so. When you see the two files in the Explorer, can you get me the exact size in bytes of both files? (I think it's called "properties" in the context menu).

The Wave file should be shorter by 2 seconds (150 CD frames) at the beginning, as the pre-gap is chopped off, aside from that the audio should be identical.
My Bad, I meant seconds after looking again, but the two seconds is takin off the end of the wav, and not the beginning.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:20 PM   #229
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My Bad, I meant seconds after looking again, but the two seconds is takin off the end of the wav, and not the beginning.
Ok, that I'd certainly call a bug, will check the code, thanks!

EDIT: Ok, found the bug, will post a corrected version, as soon as I find time to build.

EDIT2: I've attached a version with the bug fixed, thanks for testing.
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:02 PM   #230
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Ok, that I'd certainly call a bug, will check the code, thanks!

EDIT: Ok, found the bug, will post a corrected version, as soon as I find time to build.

EDIT2: I've attached a version with the bug fixed, thanks for testing.
Tested, and working correctly. Thanks!

Wyatt
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Old 02-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #231
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I just wanted to say thanks for this thread and the work being done in it. DDP support is important.

It's always confounded me how different apps burn CD's differently, it's ridiculous. I guess the problem boils all the way down to the CD standard itself which is inherently and by design I think non robust.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:04 AM   #232
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It's always confounded me how different apps burn CD's differently, it's ridiculous. I guess the problem boils all the way down to the CD standard itself which is inherently and by design I think non robust.
The standard is perfectly robust but audio CD burning seems to be the province of small developers who don't always read the specs properly. It seems that many developers implement .cue file burning as a bit of an afterthought and don't cater for all the possibilities.

The original cue file specification was written by Jeff Arnold who used to have a website at www.goldenhawk.com which no longer works for me, but Jeff's spec is the one that people should conform to.

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Old 02-17-2012, 10:52 AM   #233
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EDIT2: I've attached a version with the bug fixed, thanks for testing.
works ok for DDP with "silence" pre-gap , thanks !!!
I had an error message when trying with a DDP wich has audio between first track index 0 and index 1 (prehidden track).
I'll do more tests next week.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:20 PM   #234
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I just did my first DDP export test today and I experienced strange issues. It looks like it's working, but there are weird variations in track length.

For example, for the track 1.

- the reaper time selection from #marker 1 to #marker 2 is 1:01:731

- the trial version of DDP player tells me that the track one duration IS 1:01:55.

- when I generate a cue file using anrug program, I am told that track one duration is 1:03:55 (I suppose that the 2 seconds gain is because of the "blank part" before the first marker - but this doesn't explain the 731 VS 55x difference).

- when I burn a CD using the DDP file and export the audio, the track 1 length is 1:01:731, but when I import it into reaper, it is just a few samples longer than the expected end. I get the exact same result when using the "file / save audio files" from the trial version of DDF player.


Did you experiment the same problems?



On a random note, I have a problem with DDP Player. I have the SSL xlogic alphalink soundcard, and the drivers are set to 48'000. All media players are fine with it (itunes, windows media player, vlc). But DDP plays the tracks faster, as if it could not adapt from 44'100. Any idea on how to solution this?
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:46 PM   #235
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@Miche
I think you are confusing milliseconds ms in one case (reaper, cdplayer) and cdframe in the other (sonoris or other burning app)
your markers in reaper have to be on cdframe (75/sec)to be "exact"
you can use Gofer script (link in this thread) or snap with 1/75 tempo 240
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:47 PM   #236
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The standard is perfectly robust but audio CD burning seems to be the province of small developers who don't always read the specs properly. It seems that many developers implement .cue file burning as a bit of an afterthought and don't cater for all the possibilities.
The problem is not just with cue files, which even though they should be the simplest part of the equation still do not work correctly across applications.

What about lack of proper error correction? (I know I'm ranging far afield of DDP only stuff here). It was left out because the recording industry did not want you to make bit perfect copies. This led to things like Secure Rip, which requires multiple reads of the same data, and databases of checksums to make sure your rip actually matches someone else with the same CD. All this because the CD is really analog, that's a problem. But EAC and dbPowerAmp can come up with different secure reads of the same CD!

What about read and write offset correction? If you don't have something like a Plexwriter how do you handle that? Without it I guarantee that your copy of a CD will not match mine. Not important? I think it is, depending on how you've arranged hidden tracks and pregaps. Even if it isn't, you won't get a "perfect" copy without it. The contents must be preserved not only in their bit form, but in their position on the disc.

Quote:
CUETools is a tool for lossless audio/CUE sheet format conversion. The goal is to make sure the album image is preserved accurately. A lossless disc image must be lossless not only in preserving contents of the audio tracks, but also in preserving gaps and CUE sheet contents. Many applications lose vital information upon conversion, and don't support all possible CUE sheet styles. For example, foobar2000 loses disc pre-gap information when converting an album image, and doesn't support gaps appended (noncompliant) CUE sheets.
If you look to the emulation community, which has been engaged for years trying to archive all manner of mixed mode Data/Audio CD's, you will find that there is no single way to properly rip a bit perfect CD (even forgetting about cues sheets). They go between CDRWin and any number of custom tools to try and get a bit perfect rip. Considering that new CDs ship with errors already, good luck.

There may be a big red book and yellow book and so on, with lots of technical jargon and specs in them, but that doesn't mean anything. So it's clear to me the CD standard is not robust by any means, in fact it's strung together with baling wire, and I'll be glad when audio CDs are dead, long live data CDs.

And this sort of short sightedness continues to this day. For example, why is there no mechanism to sync digital TV audio with TV picture? Why do lips never match any more? What genius engineering committee left that out? (hint: the gubmint was involved). I guess in the age of mp3 quality music, who cares about lip sync? No wonder people watch Youtube.
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #237
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Quote:
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On a random note, I have a problem with DDP Player. I have the SSL xlogic alphalink soundcard, and the drivers are set to 48'000. All media players are fine with it (itunes, windows media player, vlc). But DDP plays the tracks faster, as if it could not adapt from 44'100. Any idea on how to solution this?
you have to sync your card to your app(ie Sonoris)
It's useless to run Sonoris (or other mastering software) in48k: it's intended to monitor your CD as it is for true, vs as it could be...
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Old 02-17-2012, 03:41 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
It seems that many developers implement .cue file burning as a bit of an afterthought and don't cater for all the possibilities.

The original cue file specification was written by Jeff Arnold who used to have a website at www.goldenhawk.com which no longer works for me, but Jeff's spec is the one that people should conform to.
I completely agree on that one. But to be fair one should also mention, that the original specification leaves *many* things unclear. Strictly speaking, the format simply is not fully specified, as a programmer you basically can't get it right, you have to decide which other programs to be compatible with, and which no to be compatible with. -- But that's probably already way off-topic here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHughes
What about read and write offset correction? If you don't have something like a Plexwriter how do you handle that? Without it I guarantee that your copy of a CD will not match mine. Not important? I think it is, depending on how you've arranged hidden tracks and pregaps. Even if it isn't, you won't get a "perfect" copy without it.
Well said! The offset thing is really nasty and annoys me each time I validate a pressed CD against my original master (DDP). For me I consider a CD only a listening copy, and when I send them out I always label them "not for production", because I just don't want to be responsible if my CD burner writes with an offset, or leaves out some meta data etc.

Last edited by anrug; 02-17-2012 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 02-18-2012, 05:13 AM   #239
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Here's what I've found by testing with different softwares:
The so called "pregap"= the first 2seconds of the CD, always 2 seconds of silence (created automatically with DDP export, using the project's first two secs ).Writing it index0 seems not completely correct, because:
it belongs to Track1 indexO but you can have a second tack1 index0 beginning after the pregap, wich can contain audio (pre-hidden track) as long as you want
Then there is track1 index1 wich sets the begining for "normal" playing with a cdplayer
Cdplayer can access audio in track1 index0 only by rewinding= "pre hidden track"
I've not managed to access prehidden track with foobar or vlc
I have successfully burned a Cd including a prehidden track with Imgburn and rip it with EAC, and could match the cuesheets

@Anrug
I've tested your DDP to Cue converter:
It works with reaper's DDP only when track1 index1 is set @ 2"00
otherwise, in every different scenario, I get this error:
Error: number of sectors included in data file (150) does not match PQ data <0>.

Last edited by vinx; 02-18-2012 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:07 AM   #240
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[edit] please ignore this post and the following, I was using some wrong method[/edit]

Last edited by miche; 02-18-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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