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Old 08-21-2015, 06:22 AM   #81
Lazarus
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Originally Posted by sweben53 View Post
You can freeze any track in cubase. There is a little snow flake symbol in the track inspector
Actually you never used to be able to and it looks like you still can't - have a look at paaltio's gif above and see the snowflake disappear when a MIDI track is selected.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:27 AM   #82
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No offense intended Laz, but you need to stop bashing on Cubase as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Have you ever even actually owned or used Cubase before?

I know you like Reaper but you seem to be going out of your way to make Cubase look bad, and not even being accurate. This is the 2nd or 3rd time in this thread you've said something about Cubase that is completely not true.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Really, stop writing statements unless you can confirm them with cold facts ...
Good luck with that.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:40 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
No offense intended Laz, but you need to stop bashing on Cubase as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Have you ever even actually owned or used Cubase before?

I know you like Reaper but you seem to be going out of your way to make Cubase look bad, and not even being accurate. This is the 2nd or 3rd time in this thread you've said something about Cubase that is completely not true.
Do you see a snowflake in the gif or in any version of Cubase? I still have C5 installed here, have used Cubase since Cubasis in 1995/6. I've been wrong on two specific new features. That's it - and I am very happy to be proved wrong.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:44 AM   #85
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Anyone who has actually - used - Cubase knows that freezing with midi tracks is done from the instrument rack, because that's where the instruments are, in the rack. If you don't know that it means you don't know how to use the app and probably shouldn't be talking about it's capabilities.

It's not a thing where people should have to "prove you wrong", it's more that you maybe should just not be talking about things you clearly don't know about? How can anyone claim to own a $500 app and (I suppose) never even bothered to learn how it works, claim that it could never freeze midi tracks? (?????) I guess you're a "collector" not an actual user.



And again, I meant no offense by any of the comments but being a long time (former) Cubase user it sounded to me like you were just making things up out of thin air.

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Old 08-21-2015, 07:28 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Anyone who has actually - used - Cubase knows that freezing with midi tracks is done from the instrument rack, because that's where the instruments are, in the rack. If you don't know that it means you don't know how to use the app and probably shouldn't be talking about it's capabilities.
It's not possible to freeze a MIDI track. So you have 5 MIDI tracks going to Kontakt. Freeze a MIDI track. Can't.

You can freeze an instrument, audio or Instrument Tracks, not MIDI tracks in the way we are all talking about here.
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Old 08-21-2015, 07:55 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by paaltio View Post
I did that actually. My solution was to use a unconnected send (hence not triggering the feedback loop) to point from the MIDI track to the audio output.

Here's my script that takes that finds the dummy send and goes to the track it points to: https://stash.reaper.fm/manage_file/2...utputTrack.lua and this goes back to the MIDI track https://stash.reaper.fm/manage_file/2...eSelection.lua

So basically binding those to two keys allows pretty effortless switching between MIDI and its output in REAPER. But I would prefer REAPER just show the audio output outright... (in case someone is wondering, refreshTrackSelection() is a kludge to make sure the mixer scrolls to the correct track if in a narrow tab)

In case anyone can think of a better idea to do this, would love to hear it! EDIT: and probably in another thread, since this is way off topic at this point... on to the scripting forum!
Cool, will have a play and think about it over the next while. Cheers!
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:06 AM   #88
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while I'm probably the least likely person to accuse of being a C7/C8 fan, here's a few observations about Cubase performance, ymmv :
- raw performance was best in C5.5, hands down
- C6.x was noticeably worse, but nowhere dramatic still
- C7/C8 are where ASIO guard comes in.
It's there, it's usable, so this is how Cubase should be compared imho !
- raw performance (@ high latency, or with AG disabled) is slightly worse than even 6.5.
- performance with AG however (and this is what matters in the end) is equal to 6.5 at least and gets way way better the lower you go with latency.
- in my book that seems like a seriously good step forward, sorry for saying positive things about C7/C8, but credit where credit is due.
- the above results come from using DAWbench, the FX version.

to add to the OT topics :
- stability never was a concern for me, not in Cubase, not in Reaper, not in S1 or Wavelab, in close to 20 years. I consider 1 crash or less a month fully acceptable, especially as typically 3rd party tools are involved then.
- so flame me, but if you got severe general instability with any host, imho your best / only bet for improvement is doing a deep checkup / re-evaluation of your own system - there will never be improvement by a magic "stable" version from outside (excluding certain specific bugs of course).
- dongles are fully transparent in use for me (had up to 4 different ones / 6 total simultaneously at times) - the moment of truth comes when a dongle dies, here the procedures / turnaround time vary a lot

just a small contribution / opinion, ymmv,
Rhino

I left out all comments on features, implementation and workflow here, even though those are what really makes or breaks a host for me ...
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:15 AM   #89
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I think we can achieve achieve a nice workflow in reaper just with consistent naming of the tracks and a few custom actions, scripts. Let's say we have multiple midi tracks going to a multioutvsti. If you name the audio output exactly like the midi input, and you append something like audio to that text, I think with a script you can read the name of the selected mid track, and search for the other with the same name, but with audio or whatever appended. I'm too wrong? And then, with the output identified, you can do what you want with that, even with custom actions, like soloing the track and rendering, bypassing the rest of the multiout vsti outputs. Maybe someone can polish this idea, if it is no completely wrong from the start..
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:18 AM   #90
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There might be people that do not want to use scripts, but expect core features to be available in the core platform....
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:43 AM   #91
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But reaper it's all about scripts, actions, and customization! it's what makes reaper what it is!! it's what put it apart of the rest, and why, at least me, prefer it over others. Maybe that users are looking in the wrong place, asking oranges from an Apple tree...

I know cockos call reaper a D.A.W. in the reaper homepage, but i prefer to think of it as a digital audio environment. I think it better describes the program, and generate less false expectations of what to expect of it... They should stay with the "Rapid Environment for Audio Production, Engineering, and Recording", and not claim to be a daw, like the others, because it's not. it's a unique thing.

Edit: Hehe, But they claim to be a daw, so that, kind of make all of you that are requesting other daw features in the right to do it...
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:43 AM   #92
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Funny I came across this post. I'm at this exact point, and I'm looking to go into Cubase for precisely the reasons mentioned previously - solid MIDI, retrospective record, etc.

However I spent a day with C8.0.20 and these were my observations:

Cons:
1). There's no way to locate the cursor to within an item. You always have to go up to the ruler or click on an empty space (in which case snap doesn't work). I don't know how the heck people navigate cubase with this limitation.

2). Crashes on inserting Melodyne always. Couldn't get Melodyne to work. On related note - can't open items in external editor.

3). Drag and drop from arrange to plugin is done with an external app VST-XML Translator. This is the sort of hack I wanted to avoid in Cubendo land, but oh well it works great.

4). Undo is finnicky - sometimes it undos fine other times it doesn't. How do you 'workaround' THAT?

5). Performance was actually better in Reaper than Cubase using Omnisphere - BUT this wasn't a fair test, more like a rough benchmark and Reaper could munch 30 instances vs. Cubase's 20 before starting to choke.

Pros:
1). Solid look and feel - also I can get 100 tracks in a single screen. In reaper I can squeeze 64.

2). Retrospective Record in MIDI works - saved me within 15 mins of opening the app.

3). Track versions - perfect for folks like me who constantly have to keep moving around parts to be 'saved or revisited later'.

4). Full audio edit undo - destructively process all audio slices like Reaper's item FX+Render, but it is all undoable.

5). Quantize directly from Arrange view - no longer need a workaround.

6). Project Logical Editor - very powerful and makes you a Cubendo ninja.

7). Built-in content - sounds great and useful for quick sketches.

I'm thinking of either trying C7.5 (I have both 7.5 and 8) or sticking with Reaper. I really want to give Cubase a try if only it were as stable as Reaper. The midi functionality and score editor would be worth the learning curve.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:48 AM   #93
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It's not possible to freeze a MIDI track. So you have 5 MIDI tracks going to Kontakt. Freeze a MIDI track. Can't.

You can freeze an instrument, audio or Instrument Tracks, not MIDI tracks in the way we are all talking about here.
Nice way to move the goalposts. Let me quote exactly what you said...

Quote:
AFAIK you can't freeze a MIDI track in Cubase.
Sure you can. Now you're saying "You can't freeze one midi track of many if multiple tracks are feeding the same instrument, like with Kontakt."

Cubase 5 and previous was built on the idea of using one instrument per sound, like with Halion One. It didn't even - come with - any multi output synth instruments until Cubase 6 afaik except for some drum samplers. Play a midi track that plays Halion One, freeze it. Period.

This "Gotta make Reaper look good" by any means necessary stuff is really immature. Nobody said Cubase's freeze was "the best", it was you saying it can't freeze midi tracks, at all, until you moved the goalposts. This below, is a frozen midi track...



What about all of the other stuff you can do midi wise that Reaper can't do, like modify notes and things without splitting up clips?

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-21-2015 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:59 AM   #94
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1). There's no way to locate the cursor to within an item. You always have to go up to the ruler or click on an empty space (in which case snap doesn't work). I don't know how the heck people navigate cubase with this limitation.
There is. As usual it's just a preference thing. You can nudge the cursor or you can type directly into the transport field to put the cursor anywhwere you want, or just mousewheel over the time display and do the same thing, something you can't do in Reaper.

Not saying Cubase is better, only that detractors only see what they want to see. I can't just type "16" Reaper's transport to locate there, I have to wait for a dialog to appear then type into that, then press Enter. They're just built differently.

I think, no matter how many try to frame it otherwise (Cubase costs a fortune!), the OP's position has some validity. He's obviously not a Reaper basher.

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Old 08-21-2015, 10:20 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Pasajeromoronmoreno View Post
But reaper it's all about scripts, actions, and customization! it's what makes reaper what it is!! it's what put it apart of the rest, and why, at least me, prefer it over others. Maybe that users are looking in the wrong place, asking oranges from an Apple tree...
I do not see reaper that way.
For me there are three layers in the software :


...Core or basic features .... These are the standard features which fit 99% of the daily usage
....Extensions .... These are features for power users or dedicated tasks, which will support sophisticated features ,
.... Scripts ... That customise the environment or enhance a workflow, for a single user

This is how software with that complexity and customisation capabilities is usually organised. Something like a software development and software design best practise .
While the core is for example fully documented in the manual, extensions are documented on their own, and scripts often in inline code. So a novice user will start on the core features, until he or she has developed an individual workflow. To optimise that there will first be scripts on the UI, on the workflow, and even later on special tasks, extensions. Compare it with photoshop, autocad or developers ide's.

When reaper was designed, at least on v3 it was just that way. But this structure has eroded, as the existence of a script or extension on a feature that would widely be understood as core or basic was used as a lame excuse not to fix the bug or implement the feature. Which made novices stumble again and again on the same issue.

Do not get me wrong, I do not completely disagree, I just want to see a clear distinction on what is what, what are the responsibilities on what type of component. It is in fact a great feature of reaper to be that customisable, but this requires an amount of discipline by the maintainers, that in some occasions was not as strong as it could have been. (Euphemism warning!)
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:22 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Nice way to move the goalposts. Let me quote exactly what you said...



Sure you can. Now you're saying "You can't freeze one midi track of many if multiple tracks are feeding the same instrument, like with Kontakt."

Cubase 5 and previous was built on the idea of using one instrument per sound, like with Halion One. It didn't even - come with - any multi output synth instruments until Cubase 6 afaik. Play a midi track that plays Halion One, freeze it.

This "Gotta make Reaper look good" stuff is really immature.
Look, there are track types in Cubase. You can't freeze a MIDI track, it's as simple as that.... it doesn't have a freeze button.

You can show as many pictures of a MIDI track that has been disabled as a result of freezing an entire instrument as you want, but it doesn't change this fact. Oh, and "Cubase 5 and previous was built on the idea of using one instrument per sound" is just daft. Halion has been around for donkeys, as has the multi-channel, multi-out VST spec that Steinberg invented for Cubase.

They invented Instrument Tracks to do what you are talking about. They are a much better fit for "one instrument per sound" stuff than routing to and from the Instrument Rack. I thought you'd used Cubase?!?! Oh, and they do have a freeze button!
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Nice way to move the goalposts. Let me quote exactly what you said...

Sure you can. Now you're saying "You can't freeze one midi track of many if multiple tracks are feeding the same instrument, like with Kontakt."
I'm sorry but Lazarus is right, the topic was about multi-out VSTs with several MIDI tracks feeding them.

Wasn't that the whole point? Reaper can freeze otherwise just fine, yet I believe this whole thing started from people saying Cubase can do it but Reaper can't (freeze midi tracks in multi-out VSTs). It's technically impossible. Don't even need midi tracks otherwise.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:37 AM   #98
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Wasn't that the whole point?
Only if you ignore the reality that not everyone works that way?

I don't work that way with Kontakt personally. I use one instance per track to make freezing easier in everything. MMV on that preference but I don't get the point.

Did the OP even say anything about preferring to work in Cubase because it's freeze is better? If not, what's the point?

He said he preferred Cubase for other reasons.

Quote:
I've started feeling a bit tired of constantly trying to turn REAPER into DAW for composition. It's awesome for a lot of stuff, but it's missing MIDI features that could really speed up composition workflow.

So I started looking into other DAWs, and Cubase felt like the most closest thing (feature-wise) to a good tool for composition.
I was freezing stuff in Cubase years before Reaper even had freeze. So what? What has any of that to do with the OP's comment or this thread except... "Let's find something Reaper is better at because we don't like the OP saying the other thing."

These threads always turn into that, loads of "Well, Reaper does - this - better." or some other justification. The OP finds Cubase a better composition platform, so what?

Quote:
the topic was about multi-out VSTs with several MIDI tracks feeding them.
Not really. The OP didn't even mention freeze. I personally feel Reaper is a much better audio workstation than Cubase but I agree with the OP wholeheartedly... on the first point of the thread subject matter...

Quote:
It's awesome for a lot of stuff, but it's missing MIDI features that could really speed up composition workflow.
Which is why I also don't compose midi in it.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-21-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:49 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by keyman_sam View Post
Cons:
1). There's no way to locate the cursor to within an item. You always have to go up to the ruler or click on an empty space (in which case snap doesn't work). I don't know how the heck people navigate cubase with this limitation.
I hate that too...REAPER mouse modifiers are seriously awesome
Maybe something might get accomplished with AutoHotKey (but I doubt it would be as usefull as the native solution)

Another thing I absolutely hate about Cubase is that you can't draw new notes with mouse and move them to other pitches while doing it - you first need to draw the note with the mouse and then use selection tool to move that note to other pitches. If somebody knows a way around this, please do share!

However, I miss the most these SWS functions when editing midi with mouse:
Code:
SWS/BR: Play from mouse cursor position (perform until shortcut released)
SWS/BR: Play from mouse cursor position and solo active item's track for the duration (perform until shortcut released)
These actions, coupled with REAPER native mouse modifiers seriously owned for inputting and previewing notes in MIDI editor.



Btw, I see I've stirred a debate about freezing. I've probably used the wrong term by saying Cubase enables you to freeze MIDI tracks. I was talking about freezing instrument tracks and instruments in VST rack.

The problem with freezing in REAPER is obvious if you put your MIDI data on one track and send that to another track which holds the Instrument (and maybe even sending audio from that track to other tracks)

Now, if you try to freeze track that contains MIDI data you will get an empty audio item and tracks that receive that MIDI data still remain unfreezed.
Yes, you can freeze the track that holds the instrument but that defeats the whole point because I don't care about audio tracks when composing. I'm working solely in arrange and MIDI editor and I hide all audio/instrument tracks from TCP. All I want to see are tracks containing MIDI data and work exclusivity with them.
To have this working in REAPER, I would probably have to code scripts for freezing tracks in such scenarios. That's one of the reason for these actions I did in SWS:
Code:
SWS/BR: Project track selection action - Set...
SWS/BR: Project track selection action - Show...
SWS/BR: Project track selection action - Clear...
The idea was to make a script that will select the right instrument/audio track in MCP when you change track selection in TCP (all tracks with MIDI data should be visible only in TCP, while instrument/audio tracks only in MCP). Because I use MCP only as sort of inspector (described here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=144354) it could mimic Cubase behavior.
But again...when you do this, you can't access TCP tracks from MCP inspector (and sometimes you want to do that), you still have to be careful what is routed to what (imagine a project with 50+ MIDI tracks (or even more if you put each articulation in different MIDI track with different MIDI channel - my try on workaround for the lack of Expression maps in REAPER...not so easy to navigate...), you still can't freeze that MIDI track directly and the upper actions don't work in all scenarios (for example, if using arrow keys to select next/previous track) due to way REAPER notifies extension about track changes.


Problem with REAPER is that all of these customizations are a two-edged sword.
Yes, they enable us a lot of useful stuff, but it's not always such a simple thing to use it because it's not always 100% possible to implement things in extensions or scripts to appear "native"...there's always something you have to be mindful of. And that's exactly what I want to circumvent - I don't want to think about all of these details, implementations, gotchas etc...while working creatively with music. Micromanaging the project in this phase kills the inspiration.
How many times I've opened REAPER, started playing around with MIDI keyboard, doing things...and suddenly I want to do something and that requires me to stop with everything, turn on the text editor and bash out yet another script or functionality for SWS.

I've been coding and customizing REAPER extensively for the last 2-3 years and that feels like the only thing I've done. Ok, it may be my fault because I have this OCD approach to things where I absolutely have to have everything done before doing serious work because I'm trying to have zero of those situations where I stop with music and start coding something. But it's getting tiring and I still didn't accomplish everything I've wanted (feature-wise). And the more things I add to REAPER to make it bend to my feel, the more things get complicated.

Cubase is quite limited in a lot of things when compared to REAPER, but it appears as a very musical DAW. Things you think of while creating notes are usually there, tracks, vst instruments, various options etc...are laid out in a fashion that enables you to navigate things easily. When it comes to CREATING music with MIDI, right there on the spot (as opposed to already having a finished song you want to record), Cubase enables you to do that, it appears to have been coded exactly for that.

Mind you, if I was working solely with audio I wouldn't think of Cubase twice - REAPER feels much better in that department. I'm only talking about features that facilitate music creation through MIDI in a linear fashion (as opposed to Live or FL studio which work better in a pattern-based workflow)

I have to say that I absolutely adore chord track and chord pads. Just yesterday I spent a few hours playing with these features and it was really fun and inspirational. I've already created a few melodies and progressions that feel worthy enough to receive more work

Chord pads could probably get used in REAPER via some kind of FX, but here's that thing about REAPER again...you have to micromanage things that way, be careful which track has the FX for chord pads, where is it routed, how will you render MIDI output from FX that does chord pads, etc... In Cubase, you simply don't have to care. Chord pads are docked in main window and work with anything, as long as you enable them.

Chord track on the other hand may seem redundant to people who are proficient with composition and playing MIDI keyboard. Me on the other hand, I'm a guitarist and while I can dabble with MIDI keyboard a bit, it's not my primary instrument and chord track enables me to stay "in the groove" when trying different things, looking for a "voice" I hear in my head which I'm trying to sketch out so I can hear it in the real world.



Please, don't make this thread into a heated debate where we insult each other based on our DAW choices
The only reason I started it was too share my experience when trying out Cubase.
And it turns out, Cubase has a lot of things REAPER could probably benefit from.

Knowing Justing and the team, I'm sure they could probably take all those features from Cubase and make them even more better
It just feels that they don't understand how beneficial these things are because they probably don't use REAPER in such a fashion - this is just a presumption, if I'm wrong and anybody in Cockos feels offended, please don't - it's not my intention to insult anyone. Justin has been really helpful to me personally in a lot of situations (mostly when asking for help on askjf) and this is something Steinberg will never be able to do. Cockos is awesome in this regard.
I just wish they would just try and understand some of workflow paradigms in MIDI composition.

Last edited by Breeder; 08-21-2015 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:54 AM   #100
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Look guys, here's the reality.

Apps like Cubase have a pretty big advantage on the midi front for one reason, they were doing fully professional midi long before applications were even capable of handling loads of audio. That's all they did. Cubase was a professional midi sequencer before some people here were even born.

The idea that a 7-10 year old app will be on the same level as one who's been at it for 30+ years is a fantasy. You can cherry pick a few things here and there but for the most part apps like Cubase have a huge advantage... decades of development time.

The things that are - possible out of the box - in Cubase that many modern sequencer kinda struggle with - for composition - makes for a rather long list.

Having said all that, I put it down for something not nearly as powerful, but still, Cubase just is what it is. Pretending it's not doesn't make is so. It's a very powerful midi sequencer... arguably the most powerful midi sequencer in existence.

I could make a list of all of the things Cubase does on the midi front that Reaper and S1 and some other modern hosts really struggle with or can't do at all but that would only prove what most of us already know is true, they've been at it for some decades. Do you know you can just go into Cubase and design any kind of on screen midi control surface you want? With faders, pans, sliders, etc, etc? That's how deep it is, it has legacy stuff from 20 years ago.

Not to mention that you can send / map - individual pitches - to completely different instruments, from the same track, something I personally miss. Not to mention 5-6 completely different midi editors including a score editor? Come on now... let's live in the real world.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-21-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:55 AM   #101
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@ keyman_sam,
1) the original set of key commands isn't all that great, you really have to build your own assignments and navigation is a breeze. But the same has been true for every single host I learned
2) can't confirm here, although in Cubase I prefer the built-in Variaudio most of the time, better integrated
3) ???
4) absolutely can't confirm, but maybe a decade of experience prevents having a fresh, unbiased view on how things are supposed to work.
Examples ?
5) no Omnisphere, can't comment

A few of the biggest gotchas when trying Cubase, I guess :
- never ever use its built-in bit bridge, crash city, use jBridge if you have to and you're golden.
- the main, universal horror in C7/8 (not 6.5 and earlier !) is the completely destroyed window focus (key commands), fugged up beyond belief. This might well be responsible for your "finicky" impression, dunno
Reaper has ugly focus behaviour too, but at least there are clunky workarounds, Cubase has none
- C8 adds a totally braindead, non-standard aero-based window management on top of that, nobody likes it, nobody asked for it
- serious Cubase workflow largely relies on key commands (see above) and workspaces (screen sets), which unfortunately have not been updated to reflect the huge changes in C7/C8, still you should use them

ymmv,
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:03 AM   #102
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Cubase's biggest downsides are the most obvious things....

- The cost.
- The dongle.
- The company.

Functionally, cherry picking aside, it's a world class midi sequencer, literally.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:10 AM   #103
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Apps like Cubase have a pretty big advantage on the midi front for one reason, they were doing fully professional midi long before applications were even capable of handling loads of audio. That's all they did. Cubase was a professional midi sequencer before some people here were even born.
I don't think that's the reason REAPER's MIDI lags behind. It would've been possible to design a much better MIDI editor than any of the existing ones with the help of hindsight and no legacy. If I designed a MIDI editor from scratch I'm 100% sure I could do a better job than the editor in Cubase, and I don't think I have any particularly special ideas, just enough experience with all the existing software.

Unfortunately with REAPER it doesn't seem to ever have been a priority so that kind of grand, bold design never entered into the picture, and instead it's just been "just do something that works and get it over with". I can only imagine what it could've been if the same kind of modern thinking Cockos has applied to the audio side of things had also been applied in the ME.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:12 AM   #104
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I don't think that's the reason REAPER's MIDI lags behind. It would've been possible to design a much better MIDI editor than any of the existing ones with the help of hindsight and no legacy. If I designed a MIDI editor from scratch I'm 100% sure I could do a better job than the editor in Cubase, and I don't think I have any particularly special ideas, just enough experience with all the existing software.
You could improve on some things with hindsight, sure. The idea that you could do it - all - better in a version 3-4-5 is a fantasy, sorry. People only say that because they aren't fully aware of everything in there, they only look at one or two things like the key editor, not everything.

Again... for the 1000th time... the paradigm there is largely virtual. You can edit midi there without ever splitting things up or even entering a conventional editor. That design choice alone puts if far ahead of many modern editors... for really complex edits.

It's not a coincidence that lots of people who score movies and things for a living use Cubase or Logic or similar. They're not all stupid people who just don't know any better.

At some point we have to accept reality, that legions of developers who've collectively spent a few decades working on midi will end up with something better (overall) than any 3-5 guys who've only been at it for 8 years. Do you even know of any other sequencer that even has a combination list + key editor? Or that can, out of the box, fully model - any - midi hardware on screen?

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Old 08-21-2015, 11:16 AM   #105
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Another thing I absolutely hate about Cubase is that you can't draw new notes with mouse and move them to other pitches while doing it - you first need to draw the note with the mouse and then use selection tool to move that note to other pitches. If somebody knows a way around this, please do share!
you are aware of context-sensitive mouse modifiers ?
not as varied as in Reaper, but very well chosen imho
I even have alt, ctrl, shift & doubleclick as thumb buttons on my mouse.
In Cubase I rarely have to leave the arrow tool.

Your example :
alt+LMB temporarily changes from arrow- to pen tool to draw notes
then either release alt and move the note or use ctrl+up/down arrow to transpose (this might be a custom assignment)
These mouse modifiers perform different functions depending on context, the best way to experience this is to start in the arrange window and then learn the individual editors one by one.

another super useful feature especially for you, not known in Reaper, would be the context sensitive info line, combined with mousewheel-over for detailed editing this is mega convenient

apologies if I stated the obvious or misinterpreted your issue,
Rhino

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Old 08-21-2015, 11:17 AM   #106
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However I spent a day with C8.0.20 and these were my observations:

Cons:
4). Undo is finnicky - sometimes it undos fine other times it doesn't. How do you 'workaround' THAT?
Do you mean undo with audio? Definitely with MIDI I've never had issues, and the one undo feature I miss the most in REAPER is Cubase's context-sensitive undo. Even if it's been a while since I edited a MIDI part, opening it in the Cubase MIDI editor and hitting undo will undo the actions inside that part, not whatever was chronologically the previous undo step in the entire session. This is one of those at first small workflow things that have become a huge deal for me.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:40 AM   #107
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You could improve on some things with hindsight, sure. The idea that you could do it - all - better in a version 3-4-5 is a fantasy, sorry. People only say that because they aren't fully aware of everything in there, they only look at one or two things like the key editor, not everything.
I'm not really talking about tacked on features but the overall design. You don't, for example, get http://lighttable.com by starting at https://notepad-plus-plus.org and iterating for a ton of versions.

Of course, those grand new designs aren't for everyone and every use case, so "better" is probably the wrong word. But my thinking is that since all the old school sequencers have done the basic stuff already, I feel like a DAW started in the 21st century maybe should go bold.

I use Cubase for my "day job" of scoring films, but I feel the workflow has huge issues still, and wish I could build something better myself. The scripting capability in REAPER is really interesting to me in that regard, but scripting on top of a what feels like an afterthought based on tired 80s design is not a great starting point... unless Cockos wants to make it really easy to actually build a new MIDI editor for REAPER, I'm certainly up for that!
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:18 PM   #108
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about tacked on features
The way Cubase allows attacking midi on a virtual level is hardly tacked on. On the contrary, Reaper's midi editor (an extension) is more of a tack on than Cubase, whose midi is it's historical application foundation?

Granted, some modern hosts have improved on some things (FL Studio for example) but overall Cubase is way deeper than most of them. It usually comes down to a lot of really random cherry picking really.

I find myself in the unenviable position of defending something I don't even like using anymore, but the comparisons are rarely fair, or anywhere near complete. They usually completely ignore all the stuff Cubase does way better... and there's a lot of stuff Cubase does better than some other hosts midi wise.

Such is daw forums where it's very hard to look at things truly objectively, but more often it turns into a "my toy is the best" contest.

Again, people don't spend $500 on Cubase because they're idiots. I know some seem to oft suggest or imply that but it just 'aint so.

But yeah, Cubase's windows drove me nuts so I stopped using it.

Quote:
but I feel the workflow has huge issues still, and wish I could build something better myself.
Yeah, they all have subjective workflow issues. Lesser of two evils and all that.

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Old 08-21-2015, 01:10 PM   #109
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The way Cubase allows attacking midi on a virtual level is hardly tacked on. On the contrary, Reaper's midi editor (an extension) is more of a tack on than Cubase, whose midi is it's historical application foundation?
I was actually referring to REAPER there, because there the ME feels like it was only supposed to do very basic stuff at first and then people kept requesting stuff that wasn't part of the design (multitrack editing, anyone?) and that has caused some issues. I would love to see what Cockos would do if they just rewrote the MIDI side in REAPER from scratch with the same emphasis that audio has had.

They certainly have everything going for them. They have the talent, as well as their wish to just do cool things and not think so much about things from a sales perspective (which is absolutely what e.g. Steinberg is doing). I think the result would be awesome.

But going back to the original point, whatever the approach, rewrite or improving the existing MIDI capabilities, there should be more resources dedicated to it. Because as it is it's way too stagnant for something so raw.

Just to note, Cubase hasn't had any meaningful updates to the Key Editor in ages either. Basically VST Expression and rudimentary chord support in the last 10 years. But they're already ahead in this situation where no one keeps improving MIDI anymore, so they're going to stay ahead if nothing changes.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:16 PM   #110
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Do you mean undo with audio? Definitely with MIDI I've never had issues, and the one undo feature I miss the most in REAPER is Cubase's context-sensitive undo. Even if it's been a while since I edited a MIDI part, opening it in the Cubase MIDI editor and hitting undo will undo the actions inside that part, not whatever was chronologically the previous undo step in the entire session. This is one of those at first small workflow things that have become a huge deal for me.
Don't remember - it was a bunch of things I did and when I did undo it took me way back instead of just the last step. Think I'm used to the Reaper undo'ing the very last action so it took me by surprise a few times.

Also, in C7.5 the mixer has no undo.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:24 PM   #111
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I was actually referring to REAPER there, because there the ME feels like it was only supposed to do very basic stuff at first and then people kept requesting stuff that wasn't part of the design (multitrack editing, anyone?) and that has caused some issues. I would love to see what Cockos would do if they just rewrote the MIDI side in REAPER from scratch with the same emphasis that audio has had.

They certainly have everything going for them. They have the talent, as well as their wish to just do cool things and not think so much about things from a sales perspective (which is absolutely what e.g. Steinberg is doing). I think the result would be awesome.

But going back to the original point, whatever the approach, rewrite or improving the existing MIDI capabilities, there should be more resources dedicated to it. Because as it is it's way too stagnant for something so raw.
Absolutely. If Cockos put their minds into it they can make MIDI up to par, but they seem to have higher priorities. It'll undoubtedly lead loyal users like myself and breeder to the other camp, but we want to make music not code scripts.

The sad thing is I'm so quick in Reaper and it's going to take a while to achieve that level of fluidity in Cubase. I keep pushing myself to learn Cubase betting that it will payoff in the long run.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:27 PM   #112
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I was actually referring to REAPER there,
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant Cubase.

Reaper's midi editing is ok actually. People do good work with it. I just wouldn't be comparing it to Cubase functionally (overall), that's all... but it obviously works based on what's getting done with it. I think part of the reason it is the way it is, love it, hate it or anywhere in between, is because they didn't follow some other better examples, but kinda went in their own direction.

To say Reaper's midi sequencing sucks would not be true imo , it doesn't suck, it's just kinda ... all over the place... workflow wise.

No real surprise there being kinda initially based on Vegas which doesn't do midi sequencing at all. The user base, generally speaking, seemed to be dead set against copying things so they didn't really copy things but went down their own path. Is it better than the things they could have copied? Opinions on that vary.

Ack. I'd been using 5.0 pre-releases all along and I could have sworn my license said it was good through 5.x but not anymore. Looks like I won't be a R5 owner after all. I thought I was good through 5.

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Old 08-21-2015, 01:29 PM   #113
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There is. As usual it's just a preference thing. You can nudge the cursor or you can type directly into the transport field to put the cursor anywhwere you want, or just mousewheel over the time display and do the same thing, something you can't do in Reaper.
Still a major PITA. Why go to the transport at all when you can just click where you want to go? I mean, isn't that the most logical way to navigate quickly? Clicking somewhere vs. entering numbers/dragging something?

This is an even bigger problem in midi/audio editor in cubase where there's no 'locate when clicked in empty space' option. Looks like it is more optimized for keyboard than mouse.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:36 PM   #114
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Cubase has that option, "Click to Locate in Empty Space". Anyway, yeah, some daws simply don't do that. Not sure that would be a deal breaker for using a daw though... well, it's obviously not since some don't do that.

How do you select an event in Reaper with the mouse without locating? (modifier) In some other hosts you use a modifier to locate.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:43 PM   #115
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...MIDI capabilities, there should be more resources dedicated to it. Because as it is it's way too stagnant for something so raw.
Well put. Some core improvements to MIDI stuff in Reaper would be great.

Incidentally, if anyone is looking to test some scripts that do some of what Lawrence is saying Reaper can't at all do then feel free to get them via this thread...

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165168

They work on selected notes in an active MIDI editor, all notes in an active MIDI editor or all notes (or selected if stated) in active takes of selected items. In the latter case from the arrange view. I'm the first to admit that this is a nicer way to work.

Could any Cubase 8 or 7.5 user confirm whether or not any additional functionality/targets have been added to the MIDI Logical Editor since Cubase 5 btw?
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:45 PM   #116
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Incidentally, if anyone is looking to test some scripts that do some of what Lawrence is saying Reaper can't at all do
Please point to me saying anything specifically in this thread that Reaper can't do at all.

You seem to be quite overly sensitive / defensive.

While you're pointing to scripts, show me a script that allows splitting midi clips in arrange without splitting overlapping notes, where the notes that extend beyond the split still play all the way through instead of creating new notes you didn't play and cutting the note you did play short. Got a script for that? That's one of my personal annoyances.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:46 PM   #117
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Yes, it's in there.

edit: it's in the "requires" folder, but you can run it. I'm going to make a couple of different actions from the one script which is why it is there at the moment.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:50 PM   #118
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Yes, it's in there.
Post it. Show me.

Afaik, and other users have complained about it, that's an old FR, to split arrange clips without splitting notes. To just hit the split command, not go digging around the forum for a script that maybe (??) does something that it should already do out of the box. The note below extends to 2.2.0 an should still play to 2.2.0. How do you make it play when the clip ends before 2.2.0?

Not saying it can't. Saying that if there's a new option for that I missed it.



I'd also like to see a script for a record erase key. Kenny G's loop midi recording "Drum Machine Style" tutorial was great, except that it didn't really do what drum machines and most sequencers actually do, allow holding down an erase key and erasing notes without manual editing while it loops.

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Old 08-21-2015, 02:03 PM   #119
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Why are you posting a picture, I already answered your question to the letter of your question. Stop trying to make me out to be a liar.
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While you're pointing to scripts, show me a script that allows splitting midi clips in arrange without splitting overlapping notes, where the notes that extend beyond the split still play all the way through instead of creating new notes you didn't play and cutting the note you did play short. Got a script for that? That's one of my personal annoyances.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:09 PM   #120
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Why are you posting a picture, I already answered your question to the letter of your question. Stop trying to make me out to be a liar.
"Liar?"

I'm asking you for help? You say Reaper can play notes beyond the part boundary with a script. I asked you to show me the script so I can use it?

You can show me the script so I can use it or you can let me go digging for it. Gosh man, why are your panties all bunched up?

First you said I claimed "Reaper couldn't do something" specific here, which I had not up to that point, now I ask for help with something specific that you claim there is a script for and you take offense to that?

Never mind, you're in defense mode now so... never mind.

If anyone else knows of a script that allows me to split my entire song at X bar in arrange without creating new notes or splitting notes under the cursor, so everything still sounds the same, and all of the notes that extended beyond the split point still play, please point me to it so I can try it. Thanks.
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