Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Recording Technologies and Techniques

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2017, 09:05 AM   #1
RDBOIS
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 1,425
Default Issues recording a vocal track - Need advice

Hello.

I'm hoping someone has gone through similar recording pains and can please help me solve my problem.

I'm having issues recording a vocal track.

The microphone is a Blue Yeti USB 3-capsule condenser microphone. These are small capsules positioned in such a way that allows to record cardioid, omni, stereo, and bidirectional. The microphone is not high quality so expecting the capsules to be Chinese substandard is expected, although not reviewed so harshly. Depending on who? LOL

My computer has the sound card it came with (a cheap laptop - a presume a 16bit 44100) with Asio4All.

The issues stems mostly from the type of vocals required for the song: a whispering but yet close in your face, not so timid, type of sound on top of a rather busy song (with acoustic, electric, keys, bass and drums).

I have a pop filter and even tried putting a sock to cover the mic (this did help a bit: should I put two socks?).

The vocal sound I'm getting is very metallic with lots of high frequency sheen, some lows (proximity), with some sibilance that can somehow be tamed.

The problem becomes unbearable when compression is added, which is necessary for the vocals to stick out of the mix. Cutting the low's to tame the proximity enhances the problem, and cutting around 3K and some high frequencies gets some of the "pain" under control and sheen, but seriously impacts the audibility of the vocals.

And ohh, because it's a whispering/singing adding compression kind of creates a strange artificial almost flanger type of undesired effect?! I tried balancing the loud and soft part manually (this seems to be better than compression, but still...).

I tried singing very near, a few inches, a few feet away, cardioid, omni, stereo, directly in the mic, diagonally, off-axis, from behind.

I tried all sorts of EQing

What is the best recording volume for such a project? Is it best to adjust the volume on the microphone or the slide bar in the sound card settings?

I know the "room" is supposed to be important, but something tells me this is not the top problem at this point. I have not tried singing in a stairwell, for example. I wonder if this is the kind of solution I need?

I wish I had other microphones to test, but I don't.

So... anyone have some tips besides changing mics? Am I doomed to having under par vocal for this song?

Ohh... if this IS a mic issue, please let me know. I'll at least know that it's not technique but hardware.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.
RDBOIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2017, 09:42 AM   #2
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Do you have a sample of the track we could hear? Ears are often the best diagnosis tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post

I know the "room" is supposed to be important, but something tells me this is not the top problem at this point. I have not tried singing in a stairwell, for example. I wonder if this is the kind of solution I need?
Don't. You want as dead a space as possible for vocal work. Stairwells and closets are reflection and comb filter (my guess as to your problem) hell and only sound good to you because your ears are being tricked by the increase in amplitude those reflections provide. Everything sounds better if it's louder. That isn't what you want here.

So set the mic to cardioid. Put as much space between it and every wall you have as you can get, with the preference for the most space behind the mic. If you have dispersion or isolation panels, use them. Look into buying or building a mic isolation box.

Even if you don't believe it, outside of the artist, the single most important aspect of recording quality is the space you're in. Record enough and that will go from some weird bit of religious dogma to a fact so obvious it's hardly worth talking about.

Regarding the mic, it's a USB mic, which means that the signal is already converted to digital before it ever hits your computer. Your sound card will play no role in the quality of the recording. The only adjustment you can make outside of the polar pattern is the gain. Turn that to dead center, and start from there. More gain will give you more signal, but it will also give you more noise. This is where you will want to dial in to a comfortable level.

Also, that mic converts to 16bit/48khz, so make sure your project is as well.

Good luck!
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2017, 10:01 AM   #3
jpanderson80
Human being with feelings
 
jpanderson80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Memphis, TN
Posts: 531
Default

Good advice given. I don't have much to add on that front.
It does seem like you've tried many options.

Bathing the track in reverb and trying multiple parallel channels may help tame some of the harshness. I'm afraid that some [a good chunk] of it will always be present though with this set-up.
__________________
www.andersonmastering.com
jpanderson80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 04:56 PM   #4
RDBOIS
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 1,425
Default

Got it for the importance of the room. I'll try making an isolation booth: perhaps with thick cloth hanging from the ceiling all around me.

I was thinking about something today and I'd appreciate if someone can please point out the flaws in my logic?

Given that the vocals are whispering-like I need to boost the volume in mixdown, after having tamed the peaks and boosted the lows with compression. Seems like THIS is part of the problem. Compressing a whisper does a real number on the sound...

Thus far I've been working under the premise that a recording should come in the DAW at approx -18db. I'm also told that I need to put the mic volume nob in the middle. This, I'm sorry to say, seems odd since there is also a sound card volume slider. If this slider is way up then "middle mic position" is very very loud and if the sound card slider is low, well...

Now I'm thinking, "What if I recorded the vocals so they come in the DAW at, just a little lower, then the mixdown volume. Not -18db, but more around the vicinity of -10to -8db. Note that I tend to mix at -6db so I'd have some wiggle room to do slight compression (or should I simply cut/clip the peaks?).

IF I record with the mic volume cranked up then I really really need to have very little noise in the room and I will need to back away from the microphone (which may be a good thing since my Blue Yeti does a sheen/proximity number on loudish whispering vocals that sometimes have normal intonations.

Being a newbie, there must be a flaw in my "record the vocals hot and don't compress so much logic". Right?

Does anyone do this? Or... Am I just bad at compressing vocals, or is my microphone a piece a sh*t and I shouldn't expect too much?

I'm also thinking that perhaps vocals like these can't be up front in a song by using compression, but only by carving out plenty of room from the other instruments, to the point of needing "really thin sounding guitars", for example.

Note: I would send y'all a track of my vocals but I'm really ashamed of the poor quality. What?! I can barely stand listening to them myself I certainly would not want such a bootleg in the cyberworld :S

Thanks
RDBOIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 05:35 PM   #5
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Being a newbie, there must be a flaw in my "record the vocals hot and don't compress so much logic". Right?

Does anyone do this? Or... Am I just bad at compressing vocals, or is my microphone a piece a sh*t and I shouldn't expect too much?

I'm also thinking that perhaps vocals like these can't be up front in a song by using compression, but only by carving out plenty of room from the other instruments, to the point of needing "really thin sounding guitars", for example
No matter how you do it, you're still left with the same problem, "noise". Hardware and room noise alike and together.

You've talked about cutting down the room noise, and that's probably the most important aspect of it.

However, if you do cut the room noise down to where it's insignificant and you still have too much noise, in all likely hood you need a better mic or interface, or maybe both.

As far as distance from the mic, it's pretty hard to get too close to a mic except for the "plosives" and maybe the high ended sibilance, Ss and Ts. Much of this can be taken care of by a good pop filter, which you can buy for a modest price. However, you can make your own that's just as good with your mother's, sister's, wife's, or girfriend's hose and a wire coat hanger that will work as good as any you can buy.

As far as the levels for recording, they won't matter too much unless your get the noise factor discussed above taken care of. You can record at -18dB or -8dB, it wont matter because the nose will still be there when you start adjusting your levels.

Once you get it into the computer, you're either going to have to be very good with your voice, or use a compressor. Or use a take envelope to manually adjust if you have the time.

I think I understand where you're at RDBOIS, and sometimes it's not easy. Try the pop filter I mentioned above, it works great for getting up closer to the mic so you can lower your interface levels.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 06:14 PM   #6
RDBOIS
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 1,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
No matter how you do it, you're still left with the same problem, "noise". Hardware and room noise alike and together.

You've talked about cutting down the room noise, and that's probably the most important aspect of it.

However, ..

Try the pop filter I mentioned above..

Thanks.

Have you ever recorded vocals with lots loudish-whispering parts? How did you do it? Have you ever come across a sort of flangery-like artefact in your vocals after compression, or had super amount of high-freqs sheen/metallic sounding vocals? How do you EQ such vocals without killing the brightness. It feels weird to put a lowshelf in the high freqs on vocals, no?

Note: I don't get this when I record normal singing.Pff...
RDBOIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 06:24 PM   #7
OPI
Human being with feelings
 
OPI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,900
Default

Damn you, Just upload it.


I had a Mini fridge That drove me nuts for a long time. It was far across the room and to my ears it was silent. But A dab of compression will make it sound like your in a restaurant walk in freezer...

Lesson learned...

- Dont get a mini fridge.

Ps. Like your stuff
OPI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 06:51 PM   #8
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Thanks.

Have you ever recorded vocals with lots loudish-whispering parts? How did you do it? Have you ever come across a sort of flangery-like artefact in your vocals after compression, or had super amount of high-freqs sheen/metallic sounding vocals? How do you EQ such vocals without killing the brightness. It feels weird to put a lowshelf in the high freqs on vocals, no?

Note: I don't get this when I record normal singing.Pff...
Hi RDBOIS, no I can't say I've tried to do very low whisper type voices before, at least I don't remember it. But I don't think I'd have a problem with it, I've got some good mics, a good room, and the pop filter I mentioned above.

However, and this is a big however, the person I would be recording would also have to have some knowledge and experience on how to use a mic. Learn how to sing up close into a sure SM57 without popping it and you'll know what I mean.


Quote:
Have you ever come across a sort of flangery-like artefact in your vocals after compression, or had super amount of high-freqs sheen/metallic sounding vocals? How do you EQ such vocals without killing the brightness. It feels weird to put a lowshelf in the high freqs on vocals, no?
That's a little difficult to answer without know and being familiar with the mic and interface you're using and especially your listening environment. Any one of these things can affect it.

You do say normal singing doesn't affect it this way. But you hear a flangey type sound and the high-freqs are metallic sounding. I'd say try using a Take Volume Envelope instead of a compressor. That's actually better than a compressor if you get used to doing it, and that's the way I always do it with any of my serious projects. You also have complete control of all your sibilance that way. It's basically the same as using a compressor, but you don't have any of the problems associated with a compressor.

EDIT: I just want to mention a little more about Take Volume envelopes, they give you complete control of of everything. You can take out plosives, fix the Ss and Ts, and generally totally control the output of the voice recording.

Last edited by Tod; 01-21-2017 at 07:02 PM.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 02:54 AM   #9
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Thus far I've been working under the premise that a recording should come in the DAW at approx -18db. I'm also told that I need to put the mic volume nob in the middle. This, I'm sorry to say, seems odd since there is also a sound card volume slider. If this slider is way up then "middle mic position" is very very loud and if the sound card slider is low, well...

Now I'm thinking, "What if I recorded the vocals so they come in the DAW at, just a little lower, then the mixdown volume. Not -18db, but more around the vicinity of -10to -8db. Note that I tend to mix at -6db so I'd have some wiggle room to do slight compression (or should I simply cut/clip the peaks?).
This is all a bit of a non sequitur. Your mic is setting the level of the recording. The DAW has effectively infinite headroom once you're in the box, so as long as you aren't clipping the mic, you're fine in the DAW. Set the levels there when you mix. It really doesn't matter much when you record. Just as an experiment, turn the fader to 11, record something with the mic set normally, and see what happens.

Quote:
I'm also thinking that perhaps vocals like these can't be up front in a song by using compression, but only by carving out plenty of room from the other instruments, to the point of needing "really thin sounding guitars", for example.
Have you thought about ducking everything about -3db under the vocal track? Reaper comes with a really nice side chain capable compressor for free. Treat the vocals to get the levels evened out. Side-chain that into another compressor that squashes the rest of the tracks when the vocals come on. That's a pretty common setup for kick and bass, and to bring vocals to the top.


Quote:
Note: I would send y'all a track of my vocals but I'm really ashamed of the poor quality. What?! I can barely stand listening to them myself I certainly would not want such a bootleg in the cyberworld :S
Don't be shy. Go read the masterpiece thread called "Why Do My Recordings Sound Like Ass?" and you'll come to understand that the only way to get good at this is to start out bad at this.

Post those things up, man. No one here really matters.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 09:33 AM   #10
RDBOIS
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 1,425
Default

Thanks guys!

I got my work cut out:

1) build an isolation room (if you can call it that)

2) make a better pop filter (I had one but it was cheese cloth, not pantyhose)

3) work on a better mic technique (I've been sort of doing that, but just matter of fact, not with real dedication)

4) manually adjust the take volume envelop of the entire vocal track before compression

6) duck using side chain (I remember seeing a Kenny video on this...)


I really enjoy the learning process. It's my patience I need to work on... I've been composing songs for many years and just now started recording them; there are nagging me to come out in a hurry!

Again thank.
RDBOIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 04:40 PM   #11
SonicAxiom
Human being with feelings
 
SonicAxiom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,014
Default

another tool that could help you getting a more balanced spectral result with the Yeti is using a dynamic eq. Your mic will probably generate constantly changing build-ups of varying frequencies. A dynamic eq can be a remedy for this.

When I record whispering voices (or very soft voices in general), I turn to the pre that has the lowest noise of all of my pres. I also choose the mic with the lowest self-noise. Using a decent pop filter and reducing ambient noise to a minimum before starting the recording is essential.

Low level voice recordings require a considerable amount of compression to sit on top of a busy mix. I apply several levels of consecutive compression to the voice track using a no. of different compressor types in a chain instead of letting a single compressor do all the amount of compression. FET compressors tame short peaks while opto compressors take care of levelling. Sometimes, I have to put five compressors in a row (ranging from very subtle settings on the first to more "aggressive" settings on the last) to achieve the desired smooth result.
SonicAxiom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 11:33 AM   #12
otb
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Thanks guys!

I got my work cut out:

1) build an isolation room (if you can call it that)

2) make a better pop filter (I had one but it was cheese cloth, not pantyhose)

3) work on a better mic technique (I've been sort of doing that, but just matter of fact, not with real dedication)

4) manually adjust the take volume envelop of the entire vocal track before compression

6) duck using side chain (I remember seeing a Kenny video on this...)


I really enjoy the learning process. It's my patience I need to work on... I've been composing songs for many years and just now started recording them; there are nagging me to come out in a hurry!

Again thank.
-Put a comforter over you and your mic.
-use reaper saturation plugins. At least 1 maxed out, maybe a couple back to back.
-use that wave shaping distortion plugin, draw some intersting shapes, and blend that using the little wet/dry knob (upper right of plugin window).
- low pass around 10k, slide it down to 5k and back up until it sounds natural but without the crazy highs.
- hi pass around 100hz, slide that up until the boominess goes away but still sounds natural

after that its the standard vocal stuff:
(possibly put this before saturation)
-expander, gentle ratio
-compression ratio 2:1 to 4:1, medium attack/release
-another EQ for a little sonic shaping/correction

after all this automate as needed.
otb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 12:25 PM   #13
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
Default

Can we hear any example?

If you're close up on the mic you can try the figure-8 setting too, angle it perpendicular to the loudest sound source in the room (probably a window or your computer) to negate it as much as possible.

Use a pop filter for sure.

With a cardioid setting you will have to be aware of proximity effect. Here is an example of 3 different positions; 5 inches away, 2 inches away, and 2 inches but I'm angled to the mic by about 30 degrees. Mic is a CAD M179

You should be able to hear that the second two have more bass but the difference in gain (normalized to -23 lufs) is 7db between 2 and 5 inches away. There is a considerable increase in room tone (it's twice as loud compared to my voice. 6db = double) in the first one because of this.

The third example is close to the second, a tiny bit quieter, but there is noticeable less high end to the sibilance.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByE...ew?usp=sharing

It plays a 3 sets of those 3 recordings, for a total of 9 times.

3 dry
3 de-essed
3 de-essed and compressed heavily with ReaComp (5ms lookahead, 10ms RMS, 4:1 ratio, 80ms attack, 100ms release, 10db knee)

And yeah I got a small lisp ;p
Fergler is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.