Old 03-31-2015, 11:20 AM   #1
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Default the year for amp modeling

It seems the time may be coming for us desktop guitarists to have access to some of the great tones.. there is a couple products coming that looks to maybe bridge that gap between the line6 range and Axefx and the pain in the ass of trying to use VST software modeling. The two that I have come across are:

AX8 - Fractal Audio.. no price no date but appears to be a trimmed down Axefx in floorboard format. "Aggressively priced" is all we have to go on for price
speculation in some of the threads are possible china manufactured and ala cart models could bring the price down to human levels

Amplifire - Atomic amps and Studio Devil
Really basic pedal format that looks loaded with features.. not many audio demos but the ones Ive heard do sound quite good

3rd party ir's loadable and good amp selection. $599 sounds more like it to me!

I think you have to run from balanced outs to an audio interface though. Looks like USB is only for data

I wonder why it took so long to release this.. its still a "reserve" list and it was announced a year ago

***********************

Anyone come across any other intriguing hardware amp modelling products?

Dont say axefx or kemper.. im aware of those.. and their pricetags

I welcome these products as I cant afford an Axe FX, Line6 seems to want to cater to the couch guitarist addicted to their Iphone and micing an amp just isn't practical for me. Software sims are a pain in the ass and I have yet to play one that I don't feel the latency when trying to monitor the proceesed tone.

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Old 03-31-2015, 11:46 AM   #2
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I am thinking about that whole hardware amp-modeler thing ...

thing is: in a hardware-thingie are the same ingredients as in a VST/AU/whatever. only more expensive, heavier, raises your power bill, you have to clean it up from time to time, but you can say on GearSlutz that you use hardware.

so whats the point (for "desktop"-guitarists) to have modeler in pedal or whatever format? haptik cant be the point here. that goes for synths.

for the companies, I get it, they earn more money and the software in the hardware doesnt get cracked. and you can use it more easily live on the one hand, but on the other hand for live use you have the whole hassle with monitoring on stage and so on and on and on ... there you are better of with a (modeling)combo, for small setups.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:03 PM   #3
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I am thinking about that whole hardware amp-modeler thing ...

thing is: in a hardware-thingie are the same ingredients as in a VST/AU/whatever. only more expensive, heavier, raises your power bill, you have to clean it up from time to time, but you can say on GearSlutz that you use hardware.

so whats the point (for "desktop"-guitarists) to have modeler in pedal or whatever format? haptik cant be the point here. that goes for synths.

for the companies, I get it, they earn more money and the software in the hardware doesnt get cracked. and you can use it more easily live on the one hand, but on the other hand for live use you have the whole hassle with monitoring on stage and so on and on and on ... there you are better of with a (modeling)combo, for small setups.
My experience with VST modelling has not been good

first, I must need a new interface to do it. I have a pod HD bean but the lowest latency with it is terrible

I also have a Fast Track pro and its about half the latency of the Pod HD when using for example, Recabinet or Sgear. Reaper reports it as 5ms/5ms (something close to this but its been a while since I tried it)

Whatever the real latency is.. it feels unnatural. I really hoped to be able to use these VST sims with my new DAW (I7 4790) but it tunes out the interface is still a show stopper with latency.

There is also the issue of just my typical "jam" session habits.

I pretty much only play my guitar at my computer. I do a lot of video tutorial stuff (not making the videos.. me trying to learn form them , some of it web based, others are downloaded to my pc.. but the point is, I need to be able to seemlessly jam with Windows media player, youtube, and other video formats. On this PC, and my old one, it will not let me play a VST amp and play along with the other stuff going on. This happens with both the Pod and the Fast track so I suspect its just not gonna happen with ASIO. The audio will cut out and do other unpleasant stuff.. I fiddled endlessly with settings and never found a workaround there.

Ive really settled on my recording workflow.. I prefer to record the tone when Im tracking. For me anyway, I want to commit to tone when Im tracking. I know there are various valid opinions here, but Im an old dog thats not going to learn a new trick with reamping and all that. I can do it, and i've done it and I'd rather track with the basic raw tone.

I do apply all the time based FX in the DAW, but raw tone I prefer to track.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:07 PM   #4
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The "year" was actually 2013.

And I get all my IRs free, doesn't most everyone?

I sold off practically all hardware I owned recently but kept a couple of Digitech RP500 pedals I've had for years. They are just as good (in the hardware department of things) as anything that's around today, provided you tweak and set them properly. The algorithms in the chips of most of these products are very close. It's up to the user really to make them sound good.

You know, I've tried those Kempers extensively. You couldn't pay me to own and use one.

It did give me a new rule or maxim to apply though: I'LL USE NO AMP THAT HAS MORE THAN A DOZEN KNOBS.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:13 PM   #5
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The "year" was actually 2013.

And I get all my IRs free, doesn't most everyone?

I sold off practically all hardware I owned recently but kept a couple of Digitech RP500 pedals I've had for years. They are just as good (in the hardware department of things) as anything that's around today, provided you tweak and set them properly. The algorithms in the chips of most of these products are very close. It's up to the user really to make them sound good.

You know, I've tried those Kempers extensively. You couldn't pay me to own and use one.

It did give me a new rule or maxim to apply though: I'LL USE NO AMP THAT HAS MORE THAN A DOZEN KNOBS.
What was the big release in 2013? or are you talking about VST modeling. I agree the algorithms arent new this year, but a hardware format that isnt hyper expensive is new.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:24 PM   #6
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I've been using a digitech GNX4 pedal for years! It has tons of models available, sounds great, and will connect just about any source to a computer via USB. It's an audio interface, a midi interface, modeler, has an 8-track recorder and drum machine on board... What more does the desktop guitarist need? Besides a little inspiration.

Gotta get them on eBay these days, but you can find them cheap. And still works with windows 8.1! Surprisingly.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:30 PM   #7
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I was just throwing out a year number. But really I don't think you can point to any one year; there have been rather steady improvements here and there all throughout, various brands, models, updates ...


[edit] Have to add, though, the big thing I remember was back when practically every guitar amp sim sounded brittle, fizzy, both, or just horrible. So glad those times are now passed!
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:47 PM   #8
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I've been using a digitech GNX4 pedal for years! It has tons of models available, sounds great, and will connect just about any source to a computer via USB. It's an audio interface, a midi interface, modeler, has an 8-track recorder and drum machine on board... What more does the desktop guitarist need? Besides a little inspiration.

Gotta get them on eBay these days, but you can find them cheap. And still works with windows 8.1! Surprisingly.
Struggling to find many audio demos of this unit. The ones I did find left the impression this is, in my opinion, still sort of a last generation modeler. This could be because there isnt a lot of pro demos online (which may say something) or not but the products im referring to are philosiphically different than this digitech.

I dont need a swis army knife processor.. I have my drums dialed in with toontrack, a DAW in reaper.. I just want great guitar tones. and no latency!..

I really dont even need any FX.. but i would like to have a little delay for sweetening the practice tone.. and sometimes i print a creative FX.

It seems like the cabinet modelling has been the hangup for these cheap boxes. I think the cheap units tend to just apply some kind of static EQ curve or soemthing to deal with the "cabinet simulator" wich IMO makes for a muffled and boring tone

The impulse response simulators demand a lot of DSP so its reserved for the Axe FX or PC type modelers. Line 6.. im not sure what they do for cabinet models but i dont think its on par with the AXE FX system

A buddy of mine has an Axe 2, and ive played it.. there is something there that the Pod HD doesnt have.

Dont get me wrong.. I do like the pod HD. But ive had it since it came out and dont see line 6 upping the game any time soon. It seems other companies are starting to target the basement, but picky guitarists.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
I prefer to record the tone when Im tracking. For me anyway, I want to commit to tone when Im tracking.
Good for you sir! A quickly dying art of knowing what you want up front. Additionally, by doing so your workflow is faster and more consistent. By not doing so and constantly being able to change everything, our goal of a well rounded mix runs the risk of waning because every thing affects every other thing. Once we can't change something, we think ahead and things start fitting together in a more cohesive fashion because we plan for "knowns" instead of unknowns. What a concept.

As far as modeling, I do a bit of everything and still much enjoy micing amps and I use modelers too. I prefer everything not be ITB all the time for reasons far beyond sound such as my Mesa Boogie never crashes, needs updates, or drivers or a license key. I can turn a few buttons and it does exactly what I expect. That simplicity even if a hardware modeler is a wonderful thing.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:52 PM   #10
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Good for you sir! A quickly dying art of knowing what you want up front. Additionally, by doing so your workflow is faster and more consistent. By not doing so and constantly being able to change everything, our goal of a well rounded mix runs the risk of waning because every thing affects every other thing. Once we can't change something, we think ahead and things start fitting together in a more cohesive fashion because we plan for "knowns" instead of unknowns. What a concept.

As far as modeling, I do a bit of everything and still much enjoy micing amps and I use modelers too. I prefer everything not be ITB all the time for reasons far beyond sound such as my Mesa Boogie never crashes, needs updates, or drivers or a license key. I can turn a few buttons and it does exactly what I expect. That simplicity even if a hardware modeler is a wonderful thing.
there are also subtle playing adjustments I make the adapt to how the tone is acting.. hopefully that isnt a dying art too
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post

As far as modeling, I do a bit of everything and still much enjoy micing amps and I use modelers too. I prefer everything not be ITB all the time for reasons far beyond sound such as my Mesa Boogie never crashes, needs updates, or drivers or a license key. I can turn a few buttons and it does exactly what I expect. That simplicity even if a hardware modeler is a wonderful thing.
I prefer it because there is no amp modeler on Earth that is going to sound as good as your Mesa Boogie.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:56 PM   #12
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I prefer it because there is no amp modeler on Earth that is going to sound as good as your Mesa Boogie.
Sshhh...
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:03 PM   #13
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micing an amp just isn't practical for me.
I just ordered this little gem. Should be here tomorrow. Mic'ing an amp is a whole lot more practical with these low-wattage tube amps. Watch a few demo videos and check out how cool this amp sounds.

https://www.blackstaramps.com/products/ht-1/
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:07 PM   #14
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quote: "I prefer to record the tone when Im tracking. For me anyway, I want to commit to tone when Im tracking."

karbomusic: "Good for you sir! A quickly dying art of knowing what you want up front. Additionally, by doing so your workflow is faster and more consistent."


I do exactly the same. I realise how popular re-amping and such is, but I personally need none of that. Just get the sound and tone right, I say, then CAPTURE IT!!!
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:10 PM   #15
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I think the secret to getting those hardware boxes to sound exactly right is pretty much all in THE EQ. Those highs can get muffled or lost altogether. (This, of course, is assuming you are experienced enough in getting decent sounds out of guitar gadgets already and are starting out with a pretty-well-dialed-in tone.)
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:11 PM   #16
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I find Mesa Boogie the last amp I want to play ...

see, its sooooo subjective. and all the old school working on a guitar tone and then prsocessing that ... sorry, in all that discussion there is for me too much "magic", "voodoo", guessing and prejudices at work.

if it isnt in correct terms described what is going on - means: in physical and mathematical terms and under leaving out words like "feel", "know", "clearly to be heard", "everybody knows", "it is said by pros" and so on and on - its blahblah. sorry for that, but should one make out of such hazy word-chains that always turn up in such discussions.

that thing with Mesa and me was meant dead seriously ... the worst sound ever.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:22 PM   #17
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Wide panel tweed deluxe copy, H&K's modern take on the Vox AC30 and a 1964 WEM Dominator MkII.

If I cant get a decent guitar sound with them I don't deserve to play guitar.

And they are worth something if I ever need to sell them.

BUT Scuffham S-Gear is awful close to a good guitar am recorded.....


Just sayin'....
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:24 PM   #18
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Amplitube with a decent fast pci soundcard.

JOB DONE.

Sounds better than a real amp as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:47 PM   #19
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The only "re-amping" I do these days is layering. I record my finished tone and DI track. I never drop my finished tone, but I might layer in a modeler (Bias is pretty much the only one I use any more) at certain points for enhancement or a different flavor for certain sections.

Unfortunately, I cannot afford (monetarily or space/volume-wise) a really good amp. I have dreams of owning an Orange and a Mesa, plus a Matchless for cleans, though. Guess my Eleven Rack will have to do for now.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:54 PM   #20
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I find Mesa Boogie the last amp I want to play ...


that thing with Mesa and me was meant dead seriously ... the worst sound ever.
Which Mesa was I speaking of?
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:55 PM   #21
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I get it, there are a lot of fans of the VST modelers, but that ship has sailed for me.

whether its genre, playstyle or whatever, the latency is a dead deal breaker. I am not going to get an RME inteface just to get playable latency and still deal with the other hangups i described.

I, personally am just looking for what basically amounts to the next generation POD

I don't think line6 is going to make it... at lest not in the near future
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:08 PM   #22
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I get it, there are a lot of fans of the VST modelers, but that ship has sailed for me.

whether its genre, playstyle or whatever, the latency is a dead deal breaker. I am not going to get an RME inteface just to get playable latency and still deal with the other hangups i described.

I, personally am just looking for what basically amounts to the next generation POD

I don't think line6 is going to make it... at lest not in the near future
May I suggest you consider getting an Infrasonic Quartet card(if you have a PCI slot available).
Under €100 and 1ms latency at 48 samples...my procesor is an i7 2700k

Thats basically no latency.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:44 PM   #23
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No interest in low-wattage tube amps I guess....oh well, Mine will be here tomorrow, and I'm hoping it gives me what I want to hear. That's my whole issue with amp sims. They sound just plain digital and unresponsive to me. The vast majority of sims are geared toward death-metal tones, which I hate.
Pod Farm is too fuzzy, no matter what I try to do with it. I've been fighting with it for years. Same with Amplitube and Guitar Rig. S-Gear is alright, but IMO it's no better or worse than all the others.
If what you hear in your head is the sound of a tube amp, I'm pretty convinced you're not gonna get it from an amp sim. The guys who have it down really have it down. They're sticking emulated pedals in front of emulated amps into emulated compressors and puking it all out through emulated speakers and in some cases it's extraordinary. I just can't get it myself.
I have my old Pod 2.0 hooked up here, too. Tried it direct, tried it with a mic, and it's just fake to me. I haven't been happy with my recorded guitar tone ever. I've spent time and money on amp models, and I just don't like the sounds I'm getting. So when I saw this little Blackstar amp and heard what it can do (albeit through internet videos) I thought, well for 250 bucks it just might give me a 'real' amp sound. We shall see.......
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:10 PM   #24
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I don't know, ed, but I get some rather good sounds out of some of these amp sims, particularly S-Gear's, then Softube's Amp Room, Overloud's TH2 Dumble clone, then freeware such as Poulin's Le456, Ignite's Emissary.

I'm an all-tube "real" amp fanatic from long past and into today, and I used to hate the earliest amp sims, but no more, and I get sounds that no one can tell apart whether 'real' or sim, no one.

I still like, keep and use my hardware amps, but not having to set up and run mikes and all that is really nice. Plugins are much easier to use. I get about 8 ms latency roundtrip these days, which I can't even hear, but even when starting out a couple of years ago at about 15-18 ms it wasn't any big deal -- it was no worse than playing at distance from amp on a very large stage.

Today's best amp sims sound as good as hardware amps, and listeners constantly and almost totally fail blind tests comparing the two.
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:14 PM   #25
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Edclip:

Mine max out at 11 watts, 15 watts and 18 watts respectively.

With a little control you can get good sound in a regular room without bleeding eardrums or angry neighbours so long as you are not looking for extreme metal sounds

The little 1 watt is like all the second generation Blackstars - they made them so the tone stack only works on the drive side, not both, which is a shame.

Hopefully you have at least a 12" external speaker to drive with it.... I think you will enjoy!
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:47 PM   #26
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@edclip

I have a VHT S6U I modded to be 2-channel footswitch-able. It's 6 watts that can run at half power (triode mode) and then dial down the anode voltage with the "watts" knob to breakup even earlier. It's killer for low volume recording applications! With no onboard FX it's as simple as it gets. Dial in the OD you want and hit record! I add FX later and I'm good to go.

This method beats every amp modeler IMO because... it's an amp.

I use the GNX4 for modeling sometimes because I can record silently, its more flexible for some things, and it's a great creative tool.

Either way, great results can be achieved, and it's all about what makes you make the best music.

*edit* I've never heard an amp sim plugin that I liked. So, I'm with you there.

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Old 03-31-2015, 04:02 PM   #27
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@thequietroom-- You might look into Vox's AmPlug offerings. They're dead simple and sound really good--and they're only $40.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:03 PM   #28
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No interest in low-wattage tube amps I guess....oh well, Mine will be here tomorrow, and I'm hoping it gives me what I want to hear. That's my whole issue with amp sims. They sound just plain digital and unresponsive to me. The vast majority of sims are geared toward death-metal tones, which I hate.
Pod Farm is too fuzzy, no matter what I try to do with it. I've been fighting with it for years. Same with Amplitube and Guitar Rig. S-Gear is alright, but IMO it's no better or worse than all the others.
If what you hear in your head is the sound of a tube amp, I'm pretty convinced you're not gonna get it from an amp sim. The guys who have it down really have it down. They're sticking emulated pedals in front of emulated amps into emulated compressors and puking it all out through emulated speakers and in some cases it's extraordinary. I just can't get it myself.
I have my old Pod 2.0 hooked up here, too. Tried it direct, tried it with a mic, and it's just fake to me. I haven't been happy with my recorded guitar tone ever. I've spent time and money on amp models, and I just don't like the sounds I'm getting. So when I saw this little Blackstar amp and heard what it can do (albeit through internet videos) I thought, well for 250 bucks it just might give me a 'real' amp sound. We shall see.......
These days thats an aweful broad statement. Have you tried an axefx?

lumping all ampsims together "they all sound digital" I think is no longer fair. The pod 2.0 has nothing to do with current tech. It isnt remotely as good as the XT/X3 tech.. which is a long ways from the HD tech.. which is a long way from teh fractal audio tech..

Good luck with the blackstar amp though. Im a big andy james fan and hes got great tone from blackstar amps.

Some of the reason I started this thread is it seems there is a sort of demarcation maybe in the last couple years seperating older tech from what is starting to sound not only acceptable, but outstanding.

I suspected there would be a fair amount of general amp modeling opinions there always is in these threads..


The tricky part to me has been form factor or price
Axefx.. 2500 dollars.. ouch
VST.. not so far for me.

I may try a different audio card at cosmics suggestion but products like this Amplifire and AXE8 are compelling to me beacause they appear to possibly put the outstanding tones in a form factor that meets my needs
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:15 PM   #29
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I don't know, ed, but I get some rather good sounds out of some of these amp sims, particularly S-Gear's, then Softube's Amp Room, Overloud's TH2 Dumble clone, then freeware such as Poulin's Le456, Ignite's Emissary.

I'm an all-tube "real" amp fanatic from long past and into today, and I used to hate the earliest amp sims, but no more, and I get sounds that no one can tell apart whether 'real' or sim, no one.

I still like, keep and use my hardware amps, but not having to set up and run mikes and all that is really nice. Plugins are much easier to use. I get about 8 ms latency roundtrip these days, which I can't even hear, but even when starting out a couple of years ago at about 15-18 ms it wasn't any big deal -- it was no worse than playing at distance from amp on a very large stage.

Today's best amp sims sound as good as hardware amps, and listeners constantly and almost totally fail blind tests comparing the two.

I've tried most of these you have listed and I agree they sound pretty good. I think thats basically what I am seeing with these new hardware products.. the Sgear level of modeling in a hardware unit that isn't over the top expensive.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:23 PM   #30
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Latency has never been an issue for me, so I'm good there. My question is how do you make them sound real? Are you guys putting tube screamers in front of them? Squashing the crap out of them? What? I feel like I've tried everything.

No AxeFX here. Way too much money. I have all the LePou stuff, all the ACMEBarGig stuff, including Shred. Flextron, Emissary, NRR-1, The Anvil, Amplitube, the Nick Crow stuff, the TSE X-50, the Mercuriall stuff. I use NadIR for my cab sim, and where do I even start with the IR's? I have tons and tons. Catharsis, Guitar Hack, Red Wire, Meshuggah, and lots more.

Is anyone going to say that these amp sims, new tech or old, will actually clean up when the guitar's volume knob is turned down? To where you can play damn near clean with your volume down about 3/4, then crank it back up and just shred? I've never heard that happen. At least not to the same degree that a tube amp does. That's the response I'm missing.

Believe me, I'd love to use amp sims, and I am very aware that some folks can make them sound incredible. I've never been satisfied with any of them, and I am sorry if that sounds like a generalization. It's just the truth.

From what I've seen online, these little Blackstar amps look like they will fit the bill for recording, and yes I do have a 2x12 cabinet just in case it's not quite ballsy enough through the 8" speaker. There's a fair amount of technology in one of these little things as well, so I can't imagine it's gonna suck.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to offer up their amp sim chains, I'm far from abandoning sims. I actually love the concept. Just not been able to get a convincing tone as of yet. Btw, what are you guys using for NON metal sounds? I've been looking for a nice classic rock sound, ala Blue Oyster Cult's Curse Of The Hidden Mirror album, for example. Listen to the guitar in 'Dance On Stilts' for a very clear idea of the tone I'm looking for. To me, it's absolutely perfect.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:35 PM   #31
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Last year was good for amp sims.

TSE's x50 v2 raised the bar, but is a one trick pony until more amps are added. Stock IRs and Movement function is the best.

Recabinet 4 amp sims are best I've used, though I struggled to find a tone with the stock IRs.

S-Gear still holds the crown for every tone up to full distortion. I understand Mike Scuffham is looking into a hardware pedal for S-Gear.

The gap between these and Kemper / Axe is so small, it's not worth the $2000-$3000 investment.

Other than that, everything is flat, fizzy and/or unusable.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:44 PM   #32
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Listen to the guitar in 'Dance On Stilts'
Just some random thoughts...

S-Gear would do well at that tone IMHO. We also need to remember that hearing an amp sim through speaker monitors cannot substitute hearing an amp sitting in the floor while playing it. SIMS are really bad about trying to sound like a produced mix while at the same time coming through monitors with tweeters etc. Yuck from a player inspiration perspective.

By the thought you put into your posts, I'd expect you are already aware of this but nevertheless one must always think of context in the mix and we lose that inspiration of playing through a real amp when listening to the amp SIM through monitors and that can't replace the feel/reactivity of the real thing.

That being said, I love amps, love 'em, love 'em, love 'em. I have five in my room alone. However, it gets tougher to tell them apart when on equal ground after the fact yet not so much while playing and we need to always be pre adjusting up front for that.

The best thing about amps other than air is they are mine, my room, my amp, my mic position, my mic choice my everything. That alone IMHO is better than tweaking a SIM that every other person and their brother has an identical version of. After a while everyone begins sounding the same, good yes but mundanely the same. YMMV.

Back to SIMs nothing is stopping anyone from being creative in the endeavor. Finding sounds should outweigh the method used. Throw a '57 in front of the monitor and record that, or across the room or run a pedal into it or it through a pedal. We should never limit ourselves when it comes to getting tones since 1/2 the battle is finding something that is interesting regardless of where it comes from. In other words, we should channel our own personality (it's the only unique thing we have) into our own tone and OWN IT. That's exactly what all our hero's did.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by edkilp View Post
Latency has never been an issue for me, so I'm good there. My question is how do you make them sound real? Are you guys putting tube screamers in front of them? Squashing the crap out of them? What? I feel like I've tried everything.

No AxeFX here. Way too much money. I have all the LePou stuff, all the ACMEBarGig stuff, including Shred. Flextron, Emissary, NRR-1, The Anvil, Amplitube, the Nick Crow stuff, the TSE X-50, the Mercuriall stuff. I use NadIR for my cab sim, and where do I even start with the IR's? I have tons and tons. Catharsis, Guitar Hack, Red Wire, Meshuggah, and lots more.

Is anyone going to say that these amp sims, new tech or old, will actually clean up when the guitar's volume knob is turned down? To where you can play damn near clean with your volume down about 3/4, then crank it back up and just shred? I've never heard that happen. At least not to the same degree that a tube amp does. That's the response I'm missing.

Believe me, I'd love to use amp sims, and I am very aware that some folks can make them sound incredible. I've never been satisfied with any of them, and I am sorry if that sounds like a generalization. It's just the truth.

From what I've seen online, these little Blackstar amps look like they will fit the bill for recording, and yes I do have a 2x12 cabinet just in case it's not quite ballsy enough through the 8" speaker. There's a fair amount of technology in one of these little things as well, so I can't imagine it's gonna suck.

In the meantime, if anyone would like to offer up their amp sim chains, I'm far from abandoning sims. I actually love the concept. Just not been able to get a convincing tone as of yet. Btw, what are you guys using for NON metal sounds? I've been looking for a nice classic rock sound, ala Blue Oyster Cult's Curse Of The Hidden Mirror album, for example. Listen to the guitar in 'Dance On Stilts' for a very clear idea of the tone I'm looking for. To me, it's absolutely perfect.

well I concede there, the volume pot thing is something I don't do that much. on rhythm and lead tones I maybe vary 75-100% to control the saturation and for clean tones I use a different patch.

For me the "feel" part comes down mostly to the pick articulation.. and that is where the latency or maybe its partially the vst amp sims kill me. Reaper is reporting around 10 ms but I don't feel like its an amp 10' away

anyway, this debate is endless.. I respect the opinions but for me, and what I would consider ideal, is a hardware unit that gets axefx tone for <1000 dollars..

I would be in 7th heaven. I'm truly hoping the axe8 in planned for that.
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Old 03-31-2015, 05:55 PM   #34
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Karbo,Those are some pretty nifty random thoughts. I agree with just about all of that.
I've been a guitarist for more than 40 years, maybe a little set in my ways in some areas. One of them is guitar tone. I know what I want to hear. When this ultra heavy metal guitar sound started cropping up, I was blown away the first time I heard it.
I started searching around and heard the exact same tone from one band to the next. Turns out I was fairly late to the party and by the time I discovered this sound, everyone was doing it.
Might explain why so many sims are geared toward this tone, which I've grown to despise.
I'm an old school guy, I like old school music, and I especially like old school,rock guitar tones.
I've never considered putting a mic in front of my monitor but I might now. I'm really hoping this little tube amp delivers.
I'm also an advocate of finding a sound and recording it. I fell into the trap of recording a dry signal and applying every amp known to man, which results in a project that never ends. I promised myself a couple years ago not to do that anymore.
For about the last 5 years or so, I've been playing acoustic almost exclusively. Now I'm getting back into electric stuff and all these amp sim nightmares are returning. I'm banking on a little 1-watt tube amp to solve the problem! I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:12 PM   #35
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well I concede there, the volume pot thing is something I don't do that much. on rhythm and lead tones I maybe vary 75-100% to control the saturation and for clean tones I use a different patch.

For me the "feel" part comes down mostly to the pick articulation.. and that is where the latency or maybe its partially the vst amp sims kill me. Reaper is reporting around 10 ms but I don't feel like its an amp 10' away

anyway, this debate is endless.. I respect the opinions but for me, and what I would consider ideal, is a hardware unit that gets axefx tone for <1000 dollars..

I would be in 7th heaven. I'm truly hoping the axe8 in planned for that.
I think feel goes way beyond pick articulation. Of course, every nuance of our personal style is going to work its way into what we perceive as 'feel'. But it's not a real blurry line between what we're doing and what the amp is doing. In fact, sometimes it's pretty obvious. You know what I really miss the most about using a sim instead of an amp? Holding that guitar in front of the cab and lettin that sucker feed back like a screaming banshee bitch from hell! God I love that!
I also couldn't use a wah unless I automated it by hand, or use my crappy POD.
I think I've been playing long enough, and I've tried amp sims enough to come to the conclusion that a real amp is the only thing that's gonna satisfy me. Hell I might even rediscover the feeling of being inspired. Been a while.
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:18 PM   #36
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I think feel goes way beyond pick articulation. Of course, every nuance of our personal style is going to work its way into what we perceive as 'feel'. But it's not a real blurry line between what we're doing and what the amp is doing. In fact, sometimes it's pretty obvious. You know what I really miss the most about using a sim instead of an amp? Holding that guitar in front of the cab and lettin that sucker feed back like a screaming banshee bitch from hell! God I love that!
I also couldn't use a wah unless I automated it by hand, or use my crappy POD.
I think I've been playing long enough, and I've tried amp sims enough to come to the conclusion that a real amp is the only thing that's gonna satisfy me. Hell I might even rediscover the feeling of being inspired. Been a while.
Of course, I meant the sticky point with the amp sims for me. Its a combination of the wierd stuff on the high end that dosn't "sing" in the distortions and the picking articulations that don't sound/feel right for me

maybe not the best way to describe it but thats how i imagine it when I hear it
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:24 PM   #37
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Of course, I meant the sticky point with the amp sims for me. Its a combination of the wierd stuff on the high end that dosn't "sing" in the distortions and the picking articulations that don't sound/feel right for me

maybe not the best way to describe it but thats how i imagine it when I hear it
I know what you're talking about. I'm familiar with the swirly stuff in the high end as well as the muddy sound in the lower frequencies. I don't disagree that the technology is progressing, but there's still just something overall weird about the sounds I get here.
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Old 03-31-2015, 07:20 PM   #38
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my Mesa Boogie never crashes, needs updates, or drivers or a license key.
+1...I don't have a Mesa (and would love to have one), but I do have a few amps here at the house...

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
one must always think of context in the mix and we lose that inspiration of playing through a real amp when listening to the amp SIM through monitors and that can't replace the feel/reactivity of the real thing.

That being said, I love amps, love 'em, love 'em, love 'em. I have five in my room alone. However, it gets tougher to tell them apart when on equal ground after the fact yet not so much while playing and we need to always be pre adjusting up front for that.

The best thing about amps other than air is they are mine, my room, my amp, my mic position, my mic choice my everything. That alone IMHO is better than tweaking a SIM that every other person and their brother has an identical version of. After a while everyone begins sounding the same, good yes but mundanely the same. YMMV.

Back to SIMs nothing is stopping anyone from being creative in the endeavor. Finding sounds should outweigh the method used. Throw a '57 in front of the monitor and record that, or across the room or run a pedal into it or it through a pedal. We should never limit ourselves when it comes to getting tones since 1/2 the battle is finding something that is interesting regardless of where it comes from. In other words, we should channel our own personality (it's the only unique thing we have) into our own tone and OWN IT. That's exactly what all our hero's did.
Right on brother....I've used about every ampsim out there, with the exception of a few (like the UAD Friedman sim that came out a while back), & have ended up with a few amps, a few different speakers & mics for my guitar tones...While I still do use ampsims for rough ideas/scratch tracks, it's just not the same for me...Love my real amps, while 3 of 'em are kinda the same, they're all a little different in their own way...

I tried the low-watt thing, & while I could get pretty decent tones, there was just something missing for me...Started with a Blackstar HT-5 & a 1x12 Greenback cab, went to an Egnater Tweaker 15w, back down to a Marshall DSL-1H, & while they're all pretty good (tone is so subjective too), when I bought my Marshall DSL100H & Ceriatone Chupacabra 50w, I understood instantly what I'd been missing...Moving air, headroom, feel, articulation that I just couldn't get with ampsims...Maybe I was doing it wrong, I dunno, but IMO, my guitar tones improved a lot when I started using the 50/100 watt amps & a 4x12 cab...

I'm not knocking ampsims/modelers at all though, I still use 'em quite a bit, but again, it's just not the same for me when I play/record with my real amps...

Currently, I've got 4 amps:
Marshall DSL100H
Ceriatone Chupacabra 50w (which is basically a hot-rodded plexi)
Egnater Tweaker 15w
Marshall DSL-1H (yes, I have the 1w version...)

I know this will probably sound crazy to you guys, but I also have 4 different speakers in my 4x12: Greenback, G12-65 re-issue, V30, & G12H 70th Anniversary...I can get some pretty different tones this way just by putting a mic on a different speaker, doing the 2-mic thing opens up even more possibilities if I wanna...

There's just something about the interaction of the player, guitar, amp, & cab that I can't get with ampsims/modelers...YMMV

Again, not knocking the ampsims/modelers at all, they're a godsend for late-night stuff, but I'm all in with my amps at this point...
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:05 PM   #39
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I'm an old school guy, I like old school music, and I especially like old school,rock guitar tones.
35 year player here so we are much alike. I do want to be fair in my advice and if I am honest with myself, I do have recordings where (again after the fact), I don't really know what I actually used (SIM/AMP) because many times it was both in the same song and I forget which is which. That does help me understand the value of both so from that perspective, I try not to trash either.

That doesn't mean I don't like amps though, they are in my blood and I don't buy into "you can't hear it buried in a mix" because that isn't necessarily my goal and IMHO there should be more to recording good music than what some potential listener I don't even know wearing ear buds cares about. That isn't why I do this; I do it for me and hope others feel the same. Mojo is many times an illusion of the mind and I like illusions, whether I'm creating them for myself or others.
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:11 PM   #40
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I'm not knocking ampsims/modelers at all though, I still use 'em quite a bit, but again, it's just not the same for me when I play/record with my real amps...
I still use them as well...

Guitar Rig, S-Gear, Pod Farm, Boogex, and most of the hardware PODs since version 1.0. I have recordings (somewhere) from my POD 1.0 and no one is complaining even after all this time (2000) because it fit the musical need.

And amps...

Marshall Class 5, Blues Jr., Hot Rod Deluxe, Egnator Rebel, Boogie DC5.

But there is a difference between using the two regardless of what (as I said earlier) some potential listener I don't even know thinks. There are things I like about both and I don't think either should be a one size fits all replacement for the other which is what most of these threads end up being about.
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